The UN, US and Iraq IV

I observe too that CdK often exhibits the diplomatic subtlety of a junkyard dog. But what the hell ... this IS/b] his junkyard.

That means a lot to me, I was under the impression that it had met your approval.



I might disagree with you on the specifics of who started that notion but I agree with your greater point that it was unhelpful. And at the time I spoke up against it just as stridently. Heck I even fell prey to a bit of namecalling myself and called the people doing this the "unamerican police".

Regardless of political affiliations or personal feelings I dislike those tactics and will usually speak up about it whether it's popular to do so or not. To me the ideals for exchanges here mean a lot. It's what I consider both an ideal and a responsibility.

It'd be damn nice to be able to not care, half the time I'm not involved and only become involved to my significant discomfort. But someone has to. Your make a very valid point about how politics is something that is not ameliorated by apathy. And where there is no apathy there is frequently passion, and passion can be a good thing and a bad thing.

I think the ideals are important because of the inevitability of the disregard for them if they are not actively maintained. It's so easy for a difference of opinion to case to be resulved or discussed in a contructive manner. Heck it all culminates in wars. That is the epitome of it all.

Passion is inevitable, but also inevitable is that uncontrolled passion will have negative results. Every one of us fights a battle in keeping our passions in check. That's why I think it's good to be reminded to do so. I sure have to remind myself often enough.

timber,

That is my favorite saying of yours. Tact and diplomacy personified. But as to site ownership I don't think it entitles me to anything (cept passwords to the server and such) and I definitely don't think I should be cut any breaks for it.

Timber wrote

I don't follow your reasoning here Timber. It seems to me that the only difference loans/grants makes is to the acknowledged status of Iraq as a country. Loans that have to be repaid show defference to an independent sovereign state whereas grants acknowledge only a client status. I don't understand how that is an argument to debunk the "ridiculous oil contention".

Iraq is oil. The very borders of the country were drawn up around oil. [And even if Iraq had no oil itself, it would still be of vital interest because its right in the middle of where most of the world's oil comes from]



http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html

Long ago and far away during another war and another split america, common and not so common folk ranted and raved at each other all knowing that in their hearts they were right. It was a bright and sunny day as the new found left bemoaned the war effort while the old guard stuck guns in their faces and told them to love it or leave it, a Mr Ken Kesey got on the stage and sang "home on the range." I was there and most likely the only one applauding the performance. That simple song, for me, accurately and honestly depicted the lunancy of socio/political rhetoric that does nothing but inflame even greater animosity, fear and devisiveness. So, on this day i shall wander about my home huming, and often singing the words "home on the range."

Aaaggghhh
Aaaggghhh! I wish everybody would quit arguing about arguing and get back to arguing about something important and of interest to the rest of us. What happened to everyone's sense of humor? Did it get raked up with the leaves and tossed in the trash can?

I understand the frustration that results in having to yell at someone, but we are not the enemies on A2K that you are all pissed at. Instead of being lazy and aiming your justified anger at each other, try directing it outside towards those responsible where it might actually make a difference. Its hard work, but more productive.

BBB

PEACE

Is he singing?

Thats a very provocative statement Diane

Steve, there's no denying that the strategic significance of Iraq is as much due to her resources as to her geographic location. I disagree however that granting aid rather than loaning it conveys client status; I see the opposite to be the case.

I note too that The US could simply have purchased, at market price, Iraq's entire petroleum output for decades at less expense and inconvenience than was undertaken to liberate that nation and render moot her previous regime's threat to both regional and global security. If cheap oil was the goal, other means of acquisition would have been far more economic.

Of course, Kesey ended up being able to hear the screams of each blade of grass when he mowed the lawn....careful, dys.

Having had opportunity of live interaction with Ken and The Merry Pranksters, I will say only that the memories are colorful. In fact, that's about all I can say of most of my memories of that era. The bus was quite colorful.

Timber wrote


Now we are getting to the heart of it. I agree that on the surface nothing could be simpler than for buyer and seller to come together and trade. America needs oil. Iraq needs American know how to exploit its oil resources. And I'm not suggesting that the US is stealing Iraqi oil, the US is paying for it - (although the promised independent scrutineer of the oil money account would be nice).

But its not so much the actual price paid for Iraqi oil that matters, but who controls it. Does the USA want to be dependent on the whim of Saddam? Moreover if you control Iraqi oil production, you influence the world price. You also challenge OPEC. Saddam switched from oil exports in dollars to euros in November 2000. It is my contention that that is what ultimately sealed his fate. Its no co-incidence that the first thing the American-Iraqi administration did was switch back to charging in dollars. Had the rest of OPEC moved from dollars to euros, (and there are sound reasons why they might be tempted), the value of the dollar would plunge and its status as the world's only reserve currency would be over.

I'm not an international financier, but I believe the ideas I mention here get closer to the truth about the real reasons for taking control of Iraq than any notion about WMD or indeed the moral imperative to bring democracy to that part of the world.

Nice one Steve, right on the money. That's why there was such a rush.
Democracy? That would be nice- starting in the USA.

Steve and McTag, You got that right! We are losing our Constitutional Rights as our country sacrifices men, women, and billions to bring democracy to Iraq. What hogwash! What lunacy! So many Americans think our christian president is such a "good" human in sacrificing so much for people half way around this world.

There is, and has been, talk by some OPEC members of denominating the commodity in Euros.
Such an eventuality eventually may come to pass. There is no imminence of that eventuality. Global political-economic realities hinder the practical advance of the notion.

Thanks ci

As McTag said elsewhere, when you next over? If you could make it this month, we can arrange a better reception for you than GWB. !

Yes, just imagine what might happen if citizens of The US were to do something like directly elect Local, State, and Federal representatives and officials. Why, in no time, they'd be able to move about and trade freely within their own borders, support a diverse and contentious Media, and even feel free to protest governmental policy and level accusations against government figures. Scary thought indeed.

I know this is off topic but that's the perfect reason to eliminate the electoral college.

We have democracy in the US but sometimes it appears that the principle of democracy is broken.

One of said times is when the majority of the citizens vote for one guy and another guy ends up as president.

One man should equal one vote.

Good observation, CdK. That's worth a thread of its own, I think. Here ya go:

The Electoral College; Building Block or Stumbling Block?

c.i. : yes, let's put our calm hat on ! could not agree with you more ! every now and then we all go "overboard" in our opinions; as long as we go back to normal status eventually, we should be able to continue our exchange of opinions and ideas. hbg