The UN, US and Iraq IV

Gelis -- Rightwing radio here(Christian right + libertarian + virulently anti-Bush) has been keep an eye on these cases and spreading the word. I haven't heard these specific names, but will listen and see if they've picked up on them. If not, I'll forward your link. Fanning the fires which need to be fanned! You'd think Rove would be aware that a whole section of Bush's support has turned away from him because of stuff like this...

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u.s., u.n. and iraq
McCain mentioned the president's response to the recent missile attack on the al Rashid hotel, where Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz was staying at the time. "The more successful we are on the ground, the more these killers will react," the president said after the attack.
If that's the case, McCain said, "God spare us more progress" . these comments are from the following link : www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/343cahso.asp

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watched a short interview of secretary rumsfeld followed by a short interview of senator mccain on CNN (thursday, nov. 6). the interview went somewhat like this. cnn interviewer : "mr. secretary, senator mccain suggests that more u.s. troops are needed in iraq. what is your position on this ?". secretary rumsfeld : "(VOLUMINOUS praise for senator mccain !) ... i have spoken to our military leaders in iraq and they have assured me that no additional u.s. troops are required in iraq." ... senator mccain's response to cnn interviewer - secretary rumsfeld was off the air by now - :"(VOLUMINOUS praise for secretary rumsfeld !) well, when i was iraq in august i spoke with many u.s. soldiers, sergeant-majors, captains and colonels. many told me that we require more u.s. soldiers on the ground ...(he gave some details on type of troops required, e.g. military police, intelligence specialists...) ..."; he closed by saying : "perhaps the secretary might want to listen to some of the soldiers". ... ZIIINNG !!! certainly found this to be quite interesting. hbg

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hbg, It's been common knowledge for a long time that this administration does not listen to the 'experts.' They think up an idea without consulting people who could provide good information, then proceed with the plan. They never learn; their pig-headedness has cost this country hundreds of American lives and billions of dollars - and still counting. Their simple answer is that the Iraqis are not taking over security of Iraq. Yeah, sure.

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Its reasonable to expect The Current Administration to listen to "Experts" who do nothing but excoriate it as opposed to seeking the cousel of "Experts" of more kindred politico-economic bent? Yeah, sure.

The "Experts" this administratiuon listens to most assiduously are The Electorate. There is quite an effective dialog going on there, despite the efforts of some to shout it down.

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timber, That's a new twist; GWBush kept claiming he does not govern by polls of the people. What changed, and when?

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I don't think Bush would recognize and electorate if they stood with big signs outside his White House windows. In fact...

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Timber : you wrote ...The "Experts" this administratiuon listens to most assiduously are The Electorate... my innocent assumption is that the footsoldiers on the ground in iraq are a part of the american electorate. are you quite sure that it is sufficient for secretary rumsfeld to listen to his generals only ? (i remember a nasty remark that bob novak made on CNN within the last few months when during a panel dicussion someone spoke of the concern and complaints american soldiers on the ground in iraq had. his response was -somewhat like- : ... the soldiers should SHUT UP and do their job ! they knew what they signed up for and what they are being paid for ... ". ) i know i'm sitting on the other side of the border, but i always thought that americans had a good deal of respect for their soldiers and their opinions , and not just for the generals. my experience in life has taught me that the people having to do the actual work in pretty well any situation are usually pretty good in assessing what needs to be done and how to do it. i think we all know where some of the EXPERTS have lead us in the past (and will probably continue to lead us). ... i'm beginning to sweat and feel a little nauseous when i think of the swamps many EXPERTS have lead us in the past ... but that's just my opinion... hbg

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I said nothing about opinion polls or pundits, c.i. The Electorate speaks its approval by electing US Senators, US Congresspersons, State Governors, Legislators, and other State and local officials who it deems are most in accord with The Elecorate's own agenda. An Admistration speaks to The Electorate every day from every form of media (and the media speaks much about the given Administration), and in millions of individual transactions, varying from tax forms to assisstance grants. The Electorate develops its preferences thereby. The nominees of a political party not meeting the approval of The Electorate will not prosper, nor, by extension, will that political party. The only polls that matter are those of national, state, and local elections. The Democrats' prosperity speaks for itself.

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The Twilight Zone

Quote:

The Electorate speaks its approval by electing US Senators, US Congresspersons, State Governors, Legislators, and other State and local officials who it deems are most in accord with The Elecorate's own agenda.

When The Electorate and their representatives are mislead, how can they arrive at reasoned decisions?

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Hamburger, first, a soldiers job is to take orders. It is a soldier's way to complain about those orders. In our Armed Forces, the troops have a right to complain about their orders, the military of some other nations are not all granted the right to do so, nor will The Media of all nations publicize dissent. I don't imagine the soldiers of ancient Ur were a uniformly happy lot, especially when on campaign.

As for to whom Rumsfeldt listens, he listens to those who report to him what those down through the chain of command report to them, step-by-step all the way to the newest recruit. The reports should match the observed conditions, and plans be revised as necessary to accomplish the assigned mission and to discharge the National Will as determined and promulgated by the three branches of The Federal Government.

And anyone not uderstanding that voluntary military service, no less than conscripted military service, means precisey "Shut up and follow orders" is his or her own problem. The job description is quite clear, and always has been. There simply can be no surprise at that fact, no matter what one's personal approval of that fact may be. A volunteer has far less room for complaint than does a conscript.

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Re: The Twilight Zone

pistoff wrote:

When The Electorate and their representatives are mislead, how can they arrive at reasoned decisions?

Quote:

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and some people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time.

Abe Lincoln

Should an agenda not in accord with one's own accrue relatively greater success than one's own, it is comforting to attribute to the inconconvient agenda all manner of malfeasance. For some, that is the only possible explanation; they can conceive of no other.

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Timber, I couldn't help but notice a big flaw in your argument .... don'tt you have to be electedd to have an electorate. Bush is only responsible to the supremes.
Facts are indeed troublesome things.

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Quote:

Should an agenda not in accord with one's own accrue relatively greater success than one's own, it is comforting to attribute to the inconconvient agenda all manner of malfeasance. For some, that is the only possible explanation; they can conceive of no other.

Timber, I'm not on board here, and I'm trying.

I have been REALLY trying, these last few days and weeks to find good things. If you want to isolate positive media stuff, then we can find a few things in past weeks. ..the enlarging of the Iraqi security force and even, god help me, the outreach from GWB toward other nations as pitiful and self-serving as it is. I simply come apart when I try to understand the downsizing of our troops on the ground. We were understaffed and have been from the beginning. If we had not deep-sixed the army, wholesale, we might have a base for beginning. If you can justify the reduction of our troops as a counter to the expanding role of the newly and frenetically enlarged Iraqi security force -- do we know what this is and how well it will be accepted? -- then you have a faith that I cannot comprehend.

I patched in an article from last Sunday's NYTtimes. The byplay between State and Defense in that story was scary. If that all really happened (and I am as sceptical of any story from the Times as I am about one from the WSJ) then we are in deep doodoo.

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McGentrix:

Quote:

Spock wrote: The good of the many outweighs the good of the few, or the one.

I do not recall him writing this. He is one of my heroes. But then I was young. He wrote: (in Baby and Child Care) You know more than you think.

I will never forget that.

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timber wrote : "Shut up and follow orders" ... that quaint notion was laid to rest, i believe, at the end of WW II. i can't recite the exact wordings of instructions for soldiers in most armed forces in today's world; but i have read more than once that soldiers cannot just "shut up and follow orders" any more, but MUST exercise INDEPENDANT thinking BEFORE executing on order and bear full responsibility for following orders not supported in the written instructions. now, perhaps SOME people do indeed think it would be a lot easier to govern(RULE) citizens (i believe soldiers are also still citizens) that think independently, if they only would "shut up and obey orders". i sincerely hope those days are over ! (noticed that even some israeli soldiers AND officers are not willing to "shut up and follow orders" at all times any more). always hoping for a better tomorrow ! hbg

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'Shut up and follow orders' is a point about propriety - what is deemed proper. An airline hostess ought not to run down the aisle screaming "We are all going to die!". Of course, she may be telling the truth.

Soldiers are also citizens, and this overarching membership, compells a duty beyond making their superiors' lives easier.

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Orders
If a soldier believes an order is unlawful he/she can say so and will not be required to follow such order. Of course that would mean that soldiers must be aware of what orders may be unlawful and also possibly suffer consequences of not following such order(s).

I am beginning to feel that timber may be Right Wing Fascist.

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timber, Are you telling us that the Electorate is different from people who participate in polls? How so?

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This is what we are headed for ...... Bush's America

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Secret Court Proceedings
A man with no name, no face, no charges, and no identity was put on trial by the U.S. government and convicted without any public record. The Supreme Court will now determine the legality of his case and conviction. Democracy Now reports that the only way this man's name became known at all was through a clerk's error.

From Democracy Now: "Also yesterday the Supreme Court yesterday ordered Solicitor General Theodore Olson to defend the Bush administration's post-9/11 policy to conduct secret court proceedings. The Court's request came in a case involving an Algerian immigrant who was detained in Florida in October 2001. The government attempted to make every part of the man's case secret including the existence of the case. The man's name became known only because of a court clerical error."
Posted by Rachel on November 5, 2003 @ 12:16PM.

Democracy now

Source

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Gelis -- What's troubling me today, having just read in the latest New Yorker a note from Seymour Hersh, is that even when the truth is shouted from the hilltops no one gives a damn.

A couple of weeks ago the Toledo Blade published a series of stories coming from some newly emerged material from Vietnam and atrocities committed by US troops. Straightforward stuff if perfectly horrible. Not picked up by the national media. (I did pick it up and posted a link in A2K... which went unremarked mostly.)

Like, who gives a sh*t, man? I mean, as long as I'm okay, what does it matter? Some sucker gets jailed, disappeared -- so what -- he probably did something wrong. If they call him a terrorist, that's good enough for me. And atrocities? Aw, you liberals are always yammering about atrocities -- like who cares, f**king traitor!

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The UN, US and Iraq IV

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