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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2003 08:44 pm
He's just complaining that his vulgar sexual comments directed at female members were deleted. Standard mod treatment, mods are reportedly all nazis too.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2003 09:10 pm
can me and roger be nazis too?
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2003 10:14 pm
Mostly, I would't touch the job. Today, I might have enjoyed it.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2003 04:10 am
Pistoff

That was an interesting article by Ray McGovern, thanks.

he says
Quote:
If it is true that we are not in Iraq to control the oil or to establish military bases with which to dominate that strategic area, we can certainly withdraw.


Which of course explains why America is in Iraq for the long term.
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2003 05:10 am
Exit Strategy?
The shrub admin. was asked about that before but they had no real answer because there was never was one. They intended to stay indefinetly. Seems that the Iraqies have an exit plan for them though. Three more months?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2003 05:59 am
I was asked last night in all seriousness (well over a few beers) if I was pleased that American helicopters were being shot down.

I said NO. And I was frankly amazed that my friend was openly saying he thought the American forces deserved to take casualties.

I was pretty shocked by this, but it made me think. I most certainly do not want to see anyone hurt or killed. But it made me wonder if Rumsfeld sees it the same way when he described taking casualties as a "necessity".

I would be most surprised if the US pulled out in 3 months. Despite the military set back(s) things are going to plan. Because there never was a plan, other than to take control of the oil. Bringing democracy, liberating Iraqis, building up the infrastructure...inflicting damage on the bad guys, taking casualties on the coalition side, all that is peripheral to the central objective.

Which is oil, the control of oil, preserving the world price of oil in dollars and breaking OPEC. I am not qualified to say whether that is worth the sacrifice of American (or British) troops.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2003 09:09 am
According to Tariq Aziz, back-channel Franco-Russian assurances led Saddam to believe The US would not invade. Aziz reportedly indicated that Saddam's WMD program consisted primarily of bluff and bluster intended to convey the impression that Iraq was to be feared and respected, a deception foisted not only on the world community but on Saddam's own senior commanders.
Quote:
washingtonpost.com
Hussein Was Sure Of Own Survival
Aide Says Confusion Reigned on Eve of War

By Steve Coll
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, November 3, 2003; Page A01



BAGHDAD, Nov. 2 -- Saddam Hussein refused to order a counterattack against U.S. troops when war erupted in March because he misjudged the initial ground thrust as a ruse and had been convinced earlier by Russian and French contacts that he could avoid or survive a land invasion, former Iraqi deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz has told interrogators, according to U.S. officials ...
... several high-ranking detainees have said they believe that Hussein was afraid to lose face with his Arab neighbors. Hussein concluded, these prisoners explained, that Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates and other countries paid him deference because they feared he had weapons of mass destruction. Hussein was unwilling to reveal that his cupboard was essentially bare, these detainees said, according to accounts from officials.

In separate interviews with The Post, several former high-ranking Iraqi generals not held in detention offered similar views. Hussein "had an inferiority complex," said Maj. Gen. Walid Mohammed Taiee, 62, chief of army logistics as the war approached earlier this year. "From a military point of view, if you did have a special weapon, you should keep it secret to achieve tactical surprise. . . . But he wanted the whole region to look at him as a grand leader. And during the period when the Americans were massing troops in Kuwait, he wanted to deter the prospect of war." ...
... Aziz has told interrogators that French and Russian intermediaries repeatedly assured Hussein during late 2002 and early this year that they would block a U.S.-led war through delays and vetoes at the U.N. Security Council. Later, according to Aziz, Hussein concluded after private talks with French and Russian contacts that the United States would probably wage a long air war first, as it had done in previous conflicts. By hunkering down and putting up a stiff defense, he might buy enough time to win a cease-fire brokered by Paris and Moscow ...

... American and British interrogators have asked dozens of generals who served in high-ranking command roles in Iraqi army divisions during this year -- some imprisoned, some living freely -- why Hussein did not use chemical weapons to defend Baghdad. A number of these generals have said that they, too, believed chemical weapons would be deployed by Hussein for the capital's defense. Yet none of the officers admitted receiving such weapons himself.

"The only consistent pattern we've gotten -- 100 percent consistent -- is that each commander says, 'My unit didn't have WMD, but the one to my right or left did,' " said the senior U.S. official involved. This has led some American interrogators to theorize that Hussein may have bluffed not only neighboring governments and the United States, but his own restive generals ... [/b]


Aziz also reportedly indicated that Saddam, while not actively engaged in the production and operational distribution of WMD, none the less maintained a clandestine program of development of prohibited missiles, and husbanded resources critical to the rapid ramp-up of WMD production. According to Aziz, Saddam thought it sufficient that others believe he possessed operational WMD; Saddam felt the deterent effect of such deception would better serve Iraq's strategic and political interests than would admitting and proving Iraq in fact had no such at-hand capability.

Now, of couse, Aziz is an individual of at best suspect credibility, and not to be assumed to be acting out of dispassionate, selfless objectivity. However, his is one more voice harmonizing in this particular chorus, and he's singing the part well.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2003 10:55 am
So it was SADDAM's fault that Bush DIDN'T find WMD's!! Now we know who to blame!!
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2003 11:08 am
Tart, the whole thing was, and is, Saddam's fault. Had he not remained defiant and intransigent, none of this would have happened. By whatever machination, he brought this on all by himself.

I happen to believe he was further emboldened by his misapprehension of the relevance of anti-war sentiment here and abroad as well. I feel he was led to believe he would be able to avoid his downfall thanks to the efforts of his apologists and of those who for whatever reason were in opposition to the policies of The Current Administration. I don't really blame or fault those who opposed The US in this matter; I fault Saddam for having taken their counsel in the vain hope of preserving himself and his despotic regime.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2003 11:10 am
Oooh, that sounds so Good, Timber, all dressed up in fancy rhetoric! Why, add a little music and you could almost forget about real life!
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2003 11:13 am
That darned Saddam! How dare he not have killed himself before he was born! Its all his fault! If he hadn't existed we would never have had to illegally invade a country to demonstrate US military power! Oh, well, its for the best, isn't it! The Iraqis are enjoying their constitutional democracy, US troops are clamouring to go over there and have roses thrown at their feet and the middle east is at peace. Ahhh...Geroge Bush for Sainthood, anyone? And isn't it just grand that wqe found all those NBC weapons and eliminated all world terrorism? Oooohh..just makes me shiver! Oh, look, my nipples are up at the thought of how wonderful we are! I'm just gonna have to go buy me a Toby Keith CD and get drunk on Coors!
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2003 11:16 am
I believe that is usually referred to as "laying it on with a trowel . . ."
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2003 11:18 am
Very Happy
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2003 11:20 am
heeheeheeheeheeheeheeheehee . . .

okbye
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2003 11:36 am
Tartarin wrote:
Oooh, that sounds so Good, Timber, all dressed up in fancy rhetoric! Why, add a little music and you could almost forget about real life!

While I envy the comfort that practice affords those on The Left, I'm afraid I am committed to the necessity of dealing with life as it is, not as I wish it might be. Pollyanna has fun. Realists have responsibilities.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2003 11:50 am
timberlandko wrote:
Realists have responsibilities.


Perhaps it is better to be irresponsible and right, than to be responsible and wrong. (Winston Churchill)
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2003 11:58 am
Perhaps so, Walter, but I believe it it contradictory that one might at once be irresponible and be right.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2003 11:58 am
Regarding Iraq, I do believe that we (the US) have put a Ferrari (the pentagon) in the hands of 16 yr old with a learners permit (George W Bush) and the neighborhood is trying to stay off the streets.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2003 12:03 pm
Now that is funny, dyslexia ... good one! Laughing
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Nov, 2003 07:20 pm
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