The UN, US and Iraq IV

I wish I could find Bush's exact statement, as I heard it on the radio this morning (I can't find it yet in print), but it went something like this: "These attacks just show how well we're doing."

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http://images.ucomics.com/comics/db/2003/db031019.gif

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I don't know how anyone else feels about this. I am so stricken by what is happening in Iraq. I wish just once that Bush or an administration spokesperson would come on and say What happened today in Iraq is tragic and frightening. This loss of life is tremendously disturbing and must not continue. We will commit more troops to the incendiary areas. We are in this occupation for the long haul.

Most of all, we will stay.

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Well, the military will stay, but when the terrorist hit soft targets like the hotel, the UN and Red Cross, it really makes a huge difference on what can get done. The UN scaled down, now the Red Cross will, who knows about contractors and other peripheral operations that are nervous about attacks on them.

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Gawd I loved that Doonesbury.

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Kara -- I think your instincts are right and I'm surprised there has been no comment except that snide one I heard (but can't quote accurately) this morning. Bush was defensive, silly, implying that the bombers wouldn't trouble themselves if the US weren't so successful in Iraq.

Probably each of us has thought at one time or another, at each attack, well, these are isolated incidents and eventually will end. But the generals I heard discussing this back in July were much more pessimistic, believing this was a sign we were in for a continuing guerrilla war.

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Tartarin wrote:

Kara -- I think your instincts are right and I'm surprised there has been no comment except that snide one I heard (but can't quote accurately) this morning. Bush was defensive, silly, implying that the bombers wouldn't trouble themselves if the US weren't so successful in Iraq.

Just saw it, he said something like: "There are murders who will murder anyone to slow our progress and the more progress we make the more they will murder. Our job is to bring these murderes to justice."

Something like that. I wasn't paying attention, a friend is watching TV in the background.

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Bush said:

Quote:

"the more progress we make on the ground, the more free the Iraqi become, the more electricity is available, the more jobs that are available, the more kids that are going to school, the more desparate these killers become, because they can't stand the thought of a free society, they hate freedom."

you can hear it here:

http://www.npr.org/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=2&prgDate=27-Oct-2003

But who believes him? He's so ineffective. And it's a really lousy excuse that's getting old, very old.

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Great equation!

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http://www.allhatnocattle.net/corpcrimewave.jpg

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I find it incomprehensible that anyone would take the position or give the appearance of taking the position that America should never accept defeat in Iraq. What is to be gained by fighting to the last man?
Isn't that like saying that while no one agreed with Saddam's rule he was the recognized leader therefore his dictatorship should be defended to the last Iraqi?

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Gel

You said something earlier, here or on another thread, with which I do not agree. You suggested we ought to let Iraqis choose a theocratic state if that is their wish.

This is a tricky issue, no question. But let me explain why I think that not a good idea.

Your argument rests upon the premise that it is morally unacceptable to determine for others what sort of government they should have, that the principle of free choice through autonomy ought to trump other considerations. That is an argument based on a moral principle, and it is a principle which I too hold.

But there is one exception, in my mind, and that exception applies where the consequences will defeat the initial principle.

For example, I hold that any group ought to be able to form a political party in my country, because I believe the classic Millian argument for liberty through freedom of any multiplicity of ideas, and expression of those ideas.

But what of a party whose policy is that, once in power, it will immediately act to criminalize all other parties and all expressions of opposing ideas?

Theocracy, particularly of the sort that seems likely, or at least possible, to arise in the present circumstances in Iraq, something of the Taliban variety, is anaethma to the sort of liberty which founds your and my principles.

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Lola -- That wasn't it. That sounds almost literate! The one I heard was a one-sentence toss-off of remarkable absurdity.

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blatham wrote:

Gel

You said something earlier, here or on another thread, with which I do not agree. You suggested we ought to let Iraqis choose a theocratic state if that is their wish.

This is a tricky issue, no question. But let me explain why I think that not a good idea.

Your argument rests upon the premise that it is morally unacceptable to determine for others what sort of government they should have, that the principle of free choice through autonomy ought to trump other considerations. That is an argument based on a moral principle, and it is a principle which I too hold.

But there is one exception, in my mind, and that exception applies where the consequences will defeat the initial principle.

For example, I hold that any group ought to be able to form a political party in my country, because I believe the classic Millian argument for liberty through freedom of any multiplicity of ideas, and expression of those ideas.

But what of a party whose policy is that, once in power, it will immediately act to criminalize all other parties and all expressions of opposing ideas?

Theocracy, particularly of the sort that seems likely, or at least possible, to arise in the present circumstances in Iraq, something of the Taliban variety, is anaethma to the sort of liberty which founds your and my principles.

Mornin eh to the great white North ....

Well said. Also in the quoted post I spoke of the 'homogenization' of mankind. I know ...... what the hell is that? Given enough time and the opportunity this spinning dirtball will give birth to a (at the risk of redundancy) race free race. I look upon interracial children as a special indication of this unstoppable process ..... once race is eliminated what is left but the philosophical implications of 'how to live' that will keep us apart but in that same act of keeping us apart, give us room to grow .... grow and realize our destiny, whatever that may be.

I don't believe that we are wise enough to take the helm at any point soon so free choice must be upheld, let each decide.

One thing I am sure of, this war has two properties, blood and oil, and only one is necessary for life.

I hope this makes sense, it did when I wrote it.

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Re the suicide bombings of yesterday

Quote:

A fifth car bomb failed to explode when the driver was shot and captured by security guards. US military officials said he was found to be carrying a Syrian passport.

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it surprising that suicide bombers wander around carrying their passports with them ?

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Guatam
Guatam, I'm shocked that you think we would be told untruths - just ]SHOCKED!

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Hmmmmmm ........ deres sumting awfuwy scwewy goin on awound here ......and I don't think it's dat wabbit.

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Hmmmm...Passport... Well, I don't know how they live and what would normally be carried on their person. Who knows?

'Syrian' Bomber Caught Alive in Baghdad, U.S. Says
Mon Oct 27,11:52 AM ET Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo!

By Ian Simpson

Excerpt

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A U.S. general said the one attacker captured in the bombings that killed 34 Monday had a Syrian passport, fueling suspicions that foreign fighters were behind a rising tide of violence.

Brig. Gen. Mark Hertling of the U.S. Army's 1st Armored Division said police shot and wounded the man when he got out of a car and tried to hurl a grenade at a Baghdad police station. The car carried three mortar rounds and was packed with TNT, he said.

"He's a foreign fighter. He had a Syrian passport and the policemen claim that as he was shot and fell that he said he was Syrian," Hertling told a news conference.

Iraqi Deputy Interior Minister Ahmad Ibrahim told the news conference the wounded attacker was now unconscious in hospital.

Full story

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I dunno if its that big a deal that someone in that region would carry a passport ... that's really a pretty common thing there. I see the current spate of bombings as a logical evolution of a failing insurgency. Lacking the ability to effectively engage hard targets or otherwise generate significant military inconvenience, the badguys are resorting to softer targets, such as NGOs and the local constabulary, looking for PR more than physical tactical advantage. I expect a good deal of general-populace backlash against this latest campaign, resulting among other things in improved intelligence which will enable further thwarting of such plans and the unravelling of the networks dedicated to them. I note that in the latest attacks, the badguys have not enjoyed unqualified success, as existing security measures and forces have prevented greater carnage. In actual effect, I see two things coming of this; one, increased and more effective Coalition/Iraqi security, ranging from barriers to human resources, and two, further consolidation of Coalition domination of Iraq's reconstruction, as NGOs pull out. All in all, neither the interests of The Badguys or of the Internationalists are served.

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I note too that many enemy KIA during the hot war, particularly among the Saddam Fedayeen, were found to be carrying foreign passports ... chiefly Syrian, Sudanese, and Iranian, though Afghanis and Chechens, among others, were also identified thereby. That has been both reported in the press and mentioned elsewhere here in several threads.
My kid mentioned the phenomenon to me in several emails back in March and April, surprised that there were so many Non-Iraqis among the POWs taken and identified enemy dead during his unit's advance.

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The UN, US and Iraq IV

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