The UN, US and Iraq IV

Its those damn Jehovah's Witnesses :wink:

Joe -- you hit the target square on. Except she wasn't smiling, she was grim, and said it with satisfaction. But you are so right about the fanatics within. It may be more obvious here in the south and southern plains, but no serious American should overlook it.

Tartarin, I have been listening and reading about worm holes and alternate universes. One can be left behind in lotsa ways

Or maybe some of us will be out front...?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That has been true of this thread for many months, from before the war.

We may owe this to timberlandko who, although of a conservative bent, has allowed his oppositely configured, and sometimes disputatively but non-furiously posting, compatriots here...each to do his own thing.

Do you think Saddam misses his Saturday night ritualistic sacrificial hootenannies ..... or has he gotten over it?

We shall overcome a..............gain


Peace love dove

America ...... 2005

Thanks, Kara. It was nice of you to say so. I really appreciate that ... and I really appreciate the quality of by far the bulk of the posts on this thread, its several progenitors, and their kind. Real discourse is much more engaging than mere partisan sniping.

To digress, thinking of puppies and Jehova's Witnesses, one autum day not long ago, a couple of The Puppies were out in The Big World, while the rest were in the fenced yard. A minivan emblazoned with a magnetic sign proclaiming its occupants to be members of the nearby Kingdom Hall pulled into the driveway ... occasioning great leaping and barking from the Puppies already in the driveway, and much canine chaos in the house as the others flooded in through the doggie door to cavil and cavort around the driveway door. The lady driving the van sweetly asked "God Bless you, neighbor! Could you please do something about your dogs?", to which I replied "Sure, no problem", and then I opened the driveway door and let the other 6 out. Sometime I'll tell the one about the Mormon Kids. That was a funny Puppy Story, too.

I don't know.... just because ............

Carl Sandburg

JACK was a swarthy, swaggering son-of-a-gun.
He worked thirty years on the railroad, ten hours a day,
and his hands were tougher than sole leather.
He married a tough woman and they had eight children
and the woman died and the children grew up and
went away and wrote the old man every two years.
He died in the poorhouse sitting on a bench in the sun
telling reminiscences to other old men whose women
were dead and children scattered.
There was joy on his face when he died as there was joy
on his face when he lived--he was a swarthy, swaggering
son-of-a-gun.


night

Are we really prepared to give up a soldier a day to force Iraq into a Democracy?
If so Who wants to volunteer their loved one?







source

So what do you recommend, Gel, ... "Cut-and-Run" ... cede victory to The Badguys. Any casualties are too many casualties, but emotion aside, the casualty rate really is operationally insignificant ... not far out of line with what could be expected from a Live Fire Exercize involving a similar force structure. The fight has been carried to the badguy, and frankly, better it be carried on in Baghdad than in Boston, or Brussels or Birmingham. "Handing Iraq over to the Iraqis Now" is just plain politically naieve almost beyond belief. To do so would guarantee the disenfranchisement of the Iraqi people, civil war, and the rise of another totalitarian regime, likely along the lines of the Taliban ... just what the Badguys want. Is that what you want? Personally, I figure whyever, however, we got there, we're there now, and we have a responsibility to ensure the Iraqis have both the means and the opportunity to address the issues confronting them as they, by plebiscite, freely choose. Along with things like power generating plants, telephone exchanges, and sewage-treatment plants, they need a functioning, civilian-controlled defense force, a competent judicial system, and an interdependent, constitutionally validated Civil Administration infrastructure. We owe it to them to provide the security require3d to allow them to establish same. When all is in place, should the people, in free and open election, choose a theocracy, a democracy, or a monarchy, or a whateverchy, fine ... its their choice to make. Its up to the rest of the world to grant them the means and opportunity to make that choice. The only coherent political forces-in-being there at the moment are precisely the forces which have repressed the Iraqis, and much of The Third World, for generations. It is morally and ethically incumbent upon us to nurture other options from among which the Iraqis may choose freely. I for one do not wish to see the Iraqis abandoned once again. Their time as geopolitical football has lasted far more than long enough. Those advocating "Immediate Turnover", even, given its track record in such things, turnover to the UN, lobby for nothing other than putting the hapless Iraqi populace back into play ... a pretty damned irresponsible stance, if you ask me. The US may well be not the best architect for a Nation Building project, but none of the other candidates have demonstrated any success in getting the job done, anywhere, any time. That there is a European Union, and a functioning, vital Asian Economy, is due soley to the initiatives undertaken by the US in the late 1940s. We've done it once; no one else ever has.

I didn't want to copy and paste from an European source, went to "spartacusschoolnet" and was linked from there to the EU-websites :wink:

Honestly, timber, I've never heard before that the EU was "due soley to the initiatives undertaken by the US in the late 1940s".
Although, I've heard and read exactly the opposite.


source: EU history

Timber asks:


As opposed to the last drop of American blood, or theirs??

F&A Timber F&A

Where would you draw the line ...

Would you nuke em?
We cannot win!!!

Walter, I call your attention to WWII and to the Marshall Plan which followed. But for The US, what would Europe have had on which to build? You guys decorated the tree; we planted it.

Gel, I know we are a little oppositely polarized on the issue here, but I really don't see it a "Last Drop of Blood" issue. Given resolve and direction, there will be far, far fewer victims of tyrany, neglect, and exploitation. That's what this war is all about, and Iraq is just a part of it.

Timber -- Why create yet another either/or situation? Clearly the US is pretty good at the kind of "attitude" and violence which is necessary to invade another country. What it's not good at is dealing with humanity after the fact. The US should be out of there. It has provoked and angered. The reconstruction should (from the beginning) have been done by a UN coalition, with a good portion of Arab countries in the mix, and with the US contributing financial support -- and technical support if needed.

That makes sense to me both politically and strategically.

(One of the saddest ironies in your post is your belief that this administration can facilitate "an interdependent, constitutionally validated Civil Administration infrastructure" which is what it has systematically attempted to take apart in its own land.)

You are right, timber, but since the Hanseatic League started already about 1260 ... :wink:

Having grown up as a Marshall Plan kid, I just have to put in that it wasn't all about being nice and helpful to Europe after the war (though the actual support shouldn't be minimalized), it was about stopping the spread of Communism, playing a part in the evolution from colonialism in Africa, Southeast Asia, and in other geopolitical changes -- in short, making our presence felt.

Tart, I don't deny that a better deal would have been a more broadly based international coalition to address and resolve the issues. Unfortunately, that has never worked. As I mentioned, whatever else may be said, the US has demonstrated the ability to pull it off. No one else ever has. That's good enough for me.

Muqtada al-Sadr has been between 1 and 5 million loyal followers and grows in stature amoung all that follow Islam.

Again, how many have to die so that the 'objective du jour' can be accomplished?
Where would you draw the line?
I admire your ideology but realize it for just that ...... ideology

]
Its nice we share at least that, isn't it?