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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 05:53 am
Setanta is right. There are those in America who are not content with waiting for Armageddon. They want, they feel it is their mission, to bring on the end of the world. I've been in their churchs in Oklahoma, Arkansas and Texas. Happier people you have not met. They get real joy out of knowing that if they can Maranatha their way to the Rapture now, they will have somehow done God's work and will.
I used to think they were harmless nuts too, recent events (think Oklahoma City) and the emergence of more vocal religious extremists, (Ashcroft, Armey, Delay) have changed my mind.

And before one dismisses this out of hand, think a minute about what the extremists' object is and whether or not they have gathered enough power to attempt to achieve it. They want to bring us all to Jesus whether we want to go or not.

~See you on the other side ~

holy Joe
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 06:37 am
timberlandko wrote:
Quote:
Iraq non-U.S. pledges seen at $18 bln -sources
Reuters, 10.24.03, 9:34 AM ET


MADRID, Oct 24 (Reuters) - Donors will pledge a total of $18 billion to help finance the reconstuction of Iraq, in addition to $20 billion of promised U.S. money, sources familiar with the pledging process told Reuters on Friday.Reuters, from Forbes



And the pledge-a-thon continues.

Quote:
Toronto Star
Rebuilding pledges lean heavily on loans
Countries offer $13 billion for reconstruction[/size]

Madrid conference exceeds U.S. expectations


KEITH B. RICHBURG AND GLENN KESSLER
SPECIAL TO THE STAR

MADRID?-International donors ending a two-day conference here pledged $9 billion (U.S.) in loans and credits and as much as $4 billion in grants for Iraq's reconstruction during the next five years.

Although the U.S.-led drive for funds outstripped earlier expectations, the pledges fell far short of the $56 billion the World Bank and United Nations has said is needed to rebuild the war-ravaged country.

Also, having the bulk of the promised money coming in the form of loans, not grants, will likely add to Iraq's crushing $120 billion debt burden.



And because Iraq will not be in a position to use the loans and other tied contributions for at least a year ...
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 06:47 am
The poster boy of cults

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:Vy5kLHbTWwgC:www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~remoore/jonestown/images/photo20.jpg

'''Story'''
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 06:52 am
Please, D, I haven't eaten breakfast yet.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 07:00 am
Sad
sorry
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 07:47 am
Serious question:
Forget about political considerations and concentrate on what is really near and dear. We are all Americans, all have hopes and dreams that are vested in our homeland .... or we would not be here. When you espouse a dream, that dream can be shared and for the most part realized.
Enter the politician ...... For whatever reason a political view requires, always requires, an interpreter to explain your dream to you and in varying degrees transform the heart felt into your 'ideology'. A homogenization of all our dreams and hopes is then returned to us in the form of 'Democracy.'

This is my simplistic view of 'Democracy'
How do you explain to a country like Iraq or Afghanistan this concept and why should the transformation involve such carnage?

Once the earth is , homogenized, we can not go back, there will be no plateau, no humanity.
Are we so wise that we can guide humanity?

My question:
Why should 'Democracy' be the only choice in Iraq. Why shouldn't they have a theocracy if that is their choice?
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 10:05 am
Sofia,

This is not the thread for much of this, but I recognize that you, george and Timber, like so many reasonable, thinking conservatives find it difficult to take the threat of the extremist religious right wing seriously. And as Setanta says, I suspect that's because you have rarely been exposed to this element. You may know of them, but you very easily dismiss the danger as insignificant. I'll give you some references here and a short quotation which includes a few statistics.


Quote:
Christian Right media is extensive and reflects a large subculture in our society. For example, televangelist Jerry Falwell periodically sends material to 162,000 conservative pastors and churches through Pastor's Policy Briefings. In late 1998, he solicited funds to expand in order to "[A]lert, educate and rally America's 200,000 conservative pastors who collectively speak to 50-60 million persons each week." Moreover Falwell is just one of many national Christian Right leaders seeking to mobilize evangelicals and fundamentalists to engage in conservative political action. In January 1999 Pat Robertson's "700 Club" TV program featured a special week-long series of reports on "Americas's Moral Crisis." Evidence of America's moral decline included abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality, and "America's obsession with sex." Viewers with concern about the moral crisis were urged to call the National Counseling Center, part of the Christian Broadcasting Network Ministry. According to the "700 Club," the Center logged 5,000 calls per day. Studies show members of some Christian Right activist groups, such as Focus on the Family and Concerned Women for America, share three related attributes; they are much more likely than the general population to:

Depend on religious television, radio, magazines, and direct mail as important sources of information.

Vote in primary and general elections

Believe that most political issues have "one correct Christian view" that shouldn't be compromised.


http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v13n1/PE_V13_N1.pdf

These figures come from an article in The Public Eye Newsletter in 1999, so the numbers are old. But the numbers have not decreased over the last four years, but rather multiplied. And the idea that Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson or Ralph Reed are no longer powerful is simply an illusion created in order to decrease the alarm factor that resulted when they addressed the Republican Convention in 1992, exposing the American public to the fanatical ideas they promote.

It seems that many people who come from home situations in which they were not exposed to these fanatical types find it hard to take this warning seriously. Even many of my Democratic friends say, "poo poo" when I first begin talking to them. It's hard to believe that such madness could be taking control of our government. But it's true.

For more on this subject, I'll be posting on this thread:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13977&start=30

And here is another reference to look at:

"The Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party," on a web site produced by TheocracyWatch, a project of the Center for Religion, Ethics, and Social Policy at Cornell University.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 10:11 am
It seems to me Lola that the key to why the religious right is more dangerous than most other things in our political spectrum is that it is absolutist, will not share power, gets its orders not from the people but from "god." There is nothing else out there like it, no political group size whose main principle is to end power-sharing, dump the Constitution, etc.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 11:48 am
I think you've hit the nail on the head, Tart. But my main beef with these types is that they are successfully furthering an agenda about which they are not honest. They are sneaking into power. And they don't have far to make it complete. They own the Congress, the White House and now, with this election, they will own the courts as well. Ant then we're all in for a 50 year (at least) horror story ride. They purposely hide their intentions to put their God into the seat of power. Their definition of God would make reasonable, thinking folks' neck hairs stand at attention. I encourage anyone who doesn't believe the threat is real to read more outside their usual boundaries. While they have been guided by Karl Rove and others to lay low in terms of major media attention, they make no pretense about their intentions and you can read about it easily anywhere on the internet.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 12:02 pm
Fair enough, Gelisgesti. If they chose theocracy, that is their choice, which is close enough to democracy to suit me, but I am not willing to concede that their former police state was a free choice by any definition of majority vote. Can I be assured that a theocracy is not chosen in exactly the same manner as government by Saddam Hussein?
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 01:17 pm
Hi Roger, I agree ... my point was that in no way should whatever is chosen be our choice.
Diversity is essential ... who is to choose the uncommon path?
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 01:20 pm
Quote:
Baghdad Burning


... I'll meet you 'round the bend my friend, where hearts can heal and souls can mend...

Saturday, October 25, 2003

Madrid Conference...
So the Madrid Conference is over. Half of the people here weren't really aware it was going on anyway. No one seems to bother with stuff like that anymore because we have more pressing affairs to attend to. I, personally, spent the last 4 days cleaning out the pantry in preparation for Ramadhan. I'd pop into the living room every once in a while to catch a glimpse of the conference and what was going on in it.

Always, there was Aznar's big teeth and Palacio's big hair. What struck me in particular was how lavish the whole conference looked. I wonder how much was spent on it… how many schools it could have renovated… how many clinics it could have provided with medication... But that's not reconstruction, of course- clinics and schools are luxuries what's really important is making sure the CPA, Governing Council and ministerial cabinet are all housed comfortably in the palaces and hotels they call home.

The most embarrassing part of the conference was watching Muwafaq Al-Ruba'i grovel for international funds for the reconstruction effort. He batted his lashes, spoke softly and kept dragging ?'the Iraqi people' into his speeches- as if the Iraqi people would actually ever see the uncountable billions that somehow enter the country and are spent before you can say ?'reconstruction'.

I must be sounding ungrateful, what with the $33 billion dollars being agreed upon, but the idea of being financially indebted to America, the IMF and the World Bank somehow has the appeal of selling ones soul to the devil. It sounds like, in conclusion, more debt upon debt. It's not that I want everything to be donated to the country, but I think that our oil revenues should be able to cover a substantial part of rebuilding Iraq. I also think that many of the countries have every right to ask for their money ?'back' at some point in the future… I'm sure the Japanese could use their $5 billion for something useful at home. One good thing is that the money is going to be under UN supervision.

Christian Aid have done a fascinating report on some ?'missing billions'. Apparently, there are $4 billion that have gone up in smoke and Bremer & Co. can only account for $1 billion. The report does some explaining on how the CPA spends the money and what committees are gone through. The PDF report asks the CPA to give a ?'transparent account' of how the billions were spent.But that's ridiculous- I mean, who can keep track of $4 billion dollars… I'm sure Ahmad Al-Chalabi can tell you first-hand that all those zeros are difficult to manage.

And what is $4 billion anyway?! First off, there are all those snazzy suits being worn by our governing council- I haven't yet seen Al-Chalabi in the same suit twice… the silk ties, Rolex watches and leather shoes. (I can tell you that canary yellow ties are the rage in men's fashion because just about every minister/ council member has worn one by now)

There are rumors that each new minister makes around $40,000 a month. For $40,000, you can build a large house in an elegant area in Baghdad. For $40,000, you can build, and fully furnish, a school. For $40,000, you can stock up a storage room in a hospital. For $40 K, you can feed 80 Iraqi families for a month *lavishly*. (Or you could buy 400 used Sony Play Stations- as my younger cousin calculated)

And then you have the extra expenses of the Governing Council- meals and abode, of course. The majority don't live in houses because they have homes and families abroad. They live in various hotels like Baghdad Hotel, Al-Rashid, and Palestine Hotel… some of them reside in palaces. One minister, they say, even sends for his staff to meet at the hotel because he refuses to visit the ministry itself. Employees at the ministry know him as ?'il shabah' or ?'the phantom' because no one beyond his deputy ministers has ever seen him in the flesh.

There's also the little matter of the Interim Government jetting about, all over the world… traveling from one place to the next. Every time one of the Puppets is rotated, they make it their immediate business to leave the country. It's ironic how the Iraqi people hear about the majority of the major decisions (like selling off the country) through foreign media networks and sometimes through a voice-over, translating to Arabic. To see them shaking hands and kissing feet, you'd think our immediate concerns are Iraq's diplomatic affairs outside of the country and not the mess *inside* of it.

Then you have the food and beverages necessary to keep our interim government alive. There used to be $5,000 lunches (which the International Herald Tribune claim were reduced). Now $5,000 lunches may seem like no big deal for 25 people in New York or Paris… but $200 per person is… beyond belief in Baghdad. Pre-war, the best meal in Iraq wouldn't cost you more than $30 per person (and there were only a handful of people who could afford a meal like that). Even now, restaurant food is quite cheap, albeit a bit risky.

A friend of an uncle, who is privy to certain purchases made by the CPA and Governing Council, says that millions each month are spent on… water. Yes. Apparently our Iraqi Council and interim government deems the water we drink not worthy of their thirst. I can understand worries about the quality of the water, but even the troops drink and eat off of vendors in the streets.

So when people here heard about the Madrid conference… well, it's hardly going to make a difference to the average Iraqi. People are very worried about the fact that the Food-for-Oil program ends next month. Some say that the ?'husseh' or ration that makes up a substantial part of the average Iraqi diet will probably be continued until January. People will literally starve without rations. Already the ration has been reduced and the quality of the what remains of it is just terrible.

I wanted to write up a paper and send it off to Madrid suggesting a "Ransom Fund". I'd like to suggest opening up a special fund for the families who have people abducted. It is becoming incredibly common to hear about a man, woman or child being abducted and ransom as high as $250,000 being asked. The standard price is $25,000, but for wealthy families, $250,000 is not uncommon. Wealthy Christian families have been particularly vulnerable to abductions of late. One man had to sell his home and car to pay his son's ransom because his money was all tied up in various projects.

And who are behind these abductions… common criminals, sometimes… other times they are Al-Sadr's goons or SCIRI's thugs. The SCIRIs are often politically motivated in their abductions and the money is said to go to supporting ?'Badr's Brigade", the SCIRI militia. More and more lately, the CPA has been complaining of the militia- but what did they expect? Giving them power in the first place was wrong, wrong, wrong. It's safe to say that no matter HOW much they promise otherwise, an armed extremist is going to mean trouble. A militia of armed extremists is going to mean chaos- especially when you allow them to enforce ?'security' in volatile areas.

Al-Sadr has been making waves in the south and Baghdad. He is frightening and I don't think his influence should be underestimated. He easily has over a million followers (some say it's up to 4 million) and they practically revere him. It's not him personally that makes him so important with his followers, it's the fact that he is the son of a famous Shi'a cleric who was assassinated in 1999. While the majority of the middle and upper class Iraqis want a secular government, Al-Sadr seems to resonate with the impoverished, currently jobless men in the south and in some of Baghdad's slums.

Currently, the CPA believe he was responsible for Al-Kho'i's assassination back in April. Others suspect that he might have been responsible for Al-Hakim's death a couple of months ago… detaining him is going to be a major problem because his followers will make sure to wreak havoc… judging from the last few months, they'll just strike up a deal with him.

- posted by river @ 9:45 PM



http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 01:45 pm
Love your GWB quote -- let's face it, if he started thinking about himself, he'd be bored to tears.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 03:50 pm
Tartarin wrote:
Brain drain -- result of having a young puppy in the house. Where in the past 24 hours did I read the wonderfully funny account of Donald Evans' "flight" with "GW"? Was it in the NYRB? Was it in these pages? Bush scared to death, incompetent, on his last flight?


I posted it in the "Let's talk about replacing..." thread.

Bush gives accounts that can't be verified or simply says something on the order of 'I cannot recall' (precisely, he said: "That's all been vetted...") when asked where is was during most of the calendar year 1972.

Do you remember where you were in 1972?
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 04:50 pm
Uhh... I uh... let's see.... oh yes... uh...

Where were you, PDiddie?

I think that Donald Evans story should be posted continually, just as a reminder.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 05:31 pm
Tartarin wrote:
Where were you, PDiddie?


Been busy.

Spent most of the past hour reading.

Some of the best postings ever have been going in here lately.

Commendable, each and all.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 06:20 pm
Ge, I've been busy today and haven't had time to answer your question about democracy in Iraq, or a theocracy, etc. I will be back to comment later.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 06:29 pm
I was graduating from SMU in 1972 and then moved to New York City to begin at Columbia University School of Social Work School. Very good times. The next year, Nixon resigned and we all celebrated. I wonder why GW can't remember. Hummmm......
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 07:35 pm
Joe -- I've been told by a member of the Great Life Church here that I will definitely be left behind. Permanently.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 08:18 pm
Tar: and I'll bet whoever it was was smiling when they told you.

We do not realize, here in these United States, what danger is poised by those who would sacrifice anything, their children, their spouses, themselves, ourselves, so that the endtimes can begin. We look at the Middle East and point in horror at the suicide bomber, the fanatical men whipping themselves, the deeply religious imans intoning "death to America" yet fail to see to the fanatic sitting on the school board or applying to become the chairperson of the Water Safety Adminstration or, more recently, submitted to Congress as a judicial nominee.
0 Replies
 
 

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