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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2003 10:44 am
http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2003 10:54 am
The WH is correct to admit there is no tangible proof.

Iraq may not have directly plotted or carried out 911.

Are you prepared to show proof they didn't provide a training ground? Funding? Are you prepared to prove Salman Pak wasn't used by terrorists to train for 911, or other planned but foiled terrorist attacks?

What was Salman Pak used for? What were the mobile chemical labs used for--and if the use was not for weapons....why were they so oddly mobile?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2003 11:08 am
From the NYT: "By ERIC SCHMITT and JOEL BRINKLEY
Several officials said the study's warnings on security, utilities and civilian rule were ignored by the Pentagon until recently."
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2003 11:31 am
sofia

Are you prepared to show that Russia does not have any green elephants? Not only do you suggest that a negative ought to be proved, but you miss the logical differentiation that the burden of proof lies with the original claim, thus with the administration (and it's backers). As you know, many of those claims have now been shown to be false or misleading.

The 'mobile labs' is a clear case in point...so please please stop bring it up, I beg of you.
Quote:
An official British investigation into two trailers found in northern Iraq has concluded they are not mobile germ warfare labs, as was claimed by Tony Blair and President George Bush, but were for the production of hydrogen to fill artillery balloons, as the Iraqis have continued to insist.
The conclusion by biological weapons experts working for the British Government is an embarrassment for the Prime Minister, who has claimed that the discovery of the labs proved that Iraq retained weapons of mass destruction and justified the case for going to war against Saddam Hussein.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,977853,00.html

And then you pull the the "Iraq may not have directly plotted..." canard out of your hat again. What does 'no connection' mean to you?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2003 06:52 pm
In addition to Blatham's response:

Sofia wrote:
"But most base(d) that impression on the (apparently false) premise that Iraq was a place where global terrorism was hiding out in, in the first place."
Salman Pak can be spun fifty ways from Sunday... but most realistic people see it as a terrorist training ground, replete with an aircraft for terrorist training.
Abu Nidal and other notorious terrorists had a haven in Iraq.


What "other notorious terrorists"?

I knew about Abu Nidal ... perpetrator of various notorious terrorist attacks - in the mid-eighties. Returned to Iraq in 1999 after a 16-year absence, some 13 years after his last major attack. In 2002, he was killed - according to the Iraqis, he committed suicide - after Iraqi authorities discovered him to be plotting with the Kuwaitis.

His single case would prove a premise that "Iraq was a place where a retired terrorist was hiding out in". Now what about the premise that "Iraq was a place where global terrorism was hiding out in", and thus a good place to "drastically reduce terrorism in the region, and the world"?

Concerning Salman Pak - it's true there was a Manhattan judge who reviewed the evidence and judged that "Iraq had provided 'material support' to bin Laden and his al-Qaeda network" - you had a Roundtable thread on it.

The evidence presented in the case, we discovered in the same thread, was the testimony of Woolsey Jr about Salman Pak and that of the three Iraqi defectors who are always referred to on this matter; and the photo "that showed a large airliner at Salman Pak where there is no landing strip".

The New York Lawyer, we also discovered, reported this on it:

Quote:
Judge Harold Baer ruled yesterday that the survivors of two people who were killed in the World Trade Center terrorist attack had presented enough evidence, "albeit barely," to be awarded $104 million in damages [..]

Judge Baer noted that other courts hold conflicting views about the appropriate standard [of "satisfactory evidence"]. And while some courts have required "clear and convincing evidence," Baer sided with those judges who have applied a more relaxed standard, which he said is "a legally sufficient evidentiary basis for a reasonable jury to find for plaintiff." [..]

Judge Baer [..] reviewed the testimony of Woolsey and terrorism expert Dr. Laurie Mylroie on alleged links between the Iraqi regime and al-Qaida, including [..] whether Saddam Hussein ran a hijacking training camp in Salman Pak, just outside of Baghdad.

"Although these experts provided few actual facts of any material support that Iraq actually provided, their opinions, coupled with their qualifications as experts on this issue, provide a sufficient basis for a reasonable jury to draw inferences which could lead to the conclusion that Iraq provided material support to al Qaeda," he said. [..]


When you say that "most realistic people see Salman Pak as a terrorist training ground", you are perhaps referring to people like this judge, considering his conclusion that, though the witnesses presenting evidence in the case provided "few actual facts of any material support that Iraq actually provided" to al Qaeda, it should be enough - at least, by "a more relaxed standard" than that of "clear and convincing evidence" - for "a reasonable jury to draw inferences which could lead to the conclusion that Iraq provided material support" ... "albeit barely".

I think I'll opt to stay sceptical on that one <nods>.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2003 09:05 pm
Two nods
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2003 09:42 pm
I'll see your nod and raise you two uh huh's
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2003 09:56 pm
and I add two toothpicks to the bet.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2003 09:58 pm
I call...sofia, let's see 'em
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2003 10:37 pm
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13841&highlight=
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2003 10:54 pm
Outstanding analysis, nimh.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2003 11:24 pm
Adding an early morning nodding to the responses aboeve ...
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 05:40 am
Intellectuals Who Distrust Freedom

By Jim Hoagland
Sunday, October 19, 2003; Page B07


American and European intellectuals have a history of distrusting politicians and thinkers from oppressed countries who clamor for the same political and economic freedoms that our savants enjoy. The clamorers cannot represent authentic nationalism if all they want is to be just like us, the reasoning seems to go.



I can understand les profs at the Sorbonne and would-be apparatchiks in the administrations-in-waiting at the Brookings Institution and Harvard's Kennedy School upholding this reverse spin on Groucho Marx's old saw: He refused to join any club that would have him as a member. The savants will not take in members who approve so heartily of the free-market club they inhabit.

But it is much harder for me to understand why President Bush and some senior members of his administration take so readily to that kind of distrust of pro-democracy advocates when it comes to Iraq. This is not an intellectual bent they come by naturally.

Bush has at times deliberately ruled out specific support to Iraqis who have lived under and fully understand Western democracy and who can promote its values in their own country. He has, I am told, accepted the argument made by Jordan's king, Egypt's president, the CIA and others that Iraqis who lived outside the borders of the Baathist terrorist rule are terminally "out of touch" and should not be given any advantages in organizing the country's political future.

That reasoning led to the disastrous U.S. decision not to train large numbers of exiles to serve as interpreters, guides and military police officers arriving with the March invasion force.

It is now a chief cause of the floundering of Bush postwar policy. Day after day, administration spokesmen make it clear the White House is being told -- and is agreeing -- that it must not trust the Iraqis whom U.S. forces fought to liberate. Some officials trash the Governing Council that the administration put in place, evidently to avoid having to give it real power anytime soon.

"The Governing Council is not seen as legitimate by the Iraqi people. They're not ready to take power," according to an unnamed senior official quoted by the State Department correspondent of the New York Times earlier this month.

Talk about disloyal leaks from the upper echelons. How would you like to be dodging bombs in Baghdad while trying to write a constitution so that Colin Powell's people can deliberately undermine you in complete anonymity?

The reasons for this distrust are varied. But much of it stems from the prominent role that Iraqi exiles such as Ayad Alawi, Ahmed Chalabi, Adnan Pachachi and Abdul Aziz Hakim play on the Governing Council. Bitter foes as they fought for scarce external support while they were living abroad, they have forged a relatively good working relationship since they came home. But a lingering prejudice in Iraq against political exiles blocks significant recognition of this positive development.

Vladimir Nabokov called attention to the West's ingrained distrust of emigres in a reproachful letter he sent to Edmund Wilson, the essayist who had extravagantly praised Lenin's regime, which may have had a hand in the assassination of Nabokov's father in Berlin in 1922:

American commentators "saw us merely as villainous generals, oil magnates, and gaunt ladies with lorgnettes" who had only selfish and base motives for opposing Lenin. That stereotyping made their testimony unwelcome and unweighed, the great Russian novelist regretfully wrote to his future ex-friend.

Martin Amis quotes Nabokov's letter in his recent book, "Koba the Dread," and then argues that "the emigres were very broadly the intelligentsia. They were the civil society," which was crushed and forced into exile by the professional revolutionaries of Bolshevism, who were perversely lionized by many in the chattering classes in the West.

Raymond Aron, an outstanding French intellectual of the 20th century, would recognize today's strange postwar climate. Western writers, Washington politicians and Arab monarchs who never bothered to issue a single critical word about Saddam Hussein as he killed or tortured millions of Arabs and Iranians harp upon the failings and "illegitimate" nature of the Governing Council. Some of them feign moral outrage over (trumped up) embezzling charges against Chalabi.

Writing in the 1950s, Aron denounced intellectuals who were "merciless toward the failings of the democracies but ready to tolerate the worst crimes as long as they are committed in the name of the proper doctrines." They have survived even the end of the Cold War. It would be tragic if Bush and his team were to give them comfort and legitimacy by sharing the savants' reflexive disdain for people who gave up their homeland for so long in order to regain it in freedom.

[email protected]


© 2003 The Washington Post Company
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 07:00 am
Gun point democracy?


US crackdown on Shias fuels anger

Monday 20 October 2003, 10:59 Makka Time, 7:59 GMT


US troops sealed off roads around the house of an Iraqi Shia Muslim cleric, while another religious leader warned the crackdown would only backfire.


Soldiers surrounded buildings used by local cleric Sayyid Mahmud al-Hassani on Saturday with armoured vehicles while helicopters circled overhead.

Three US military police and two Iraqi police were killed on Thursday night in fighting in the city which US forces blamed on supporters of al-Hassani. He is a sympathiser of firebrand Shia leader Muqtada al-Sadr, who opposes the US-led occupation of Iraq.

US officers would not comment on whether they were hoping to arrest al-Hassani. His supporters said he had left his home after Thursday's shootout in which local people said eight of his followers had been killed.

After arresting one of his followers, American soldiers surrounded al-Hassani's office building, witnesses said.

Harder line

The moves suggest American troops are taking a harder line against outspoken clerics, backed by militiamen armed with AK-47 assault rifles and rocket-propelled grenades, who are fiercely opposed to the occupation.

Shaikh Kathim al-Nasiri, al-Sadr's representative in Karbala, said US troops made a serious mistake, spilling Muslim blood and pressuring Shia clerics.

"(Al-Hassani) is a mixture of a criminal and a lunatic who believes he has a hotline to God"

Occupation authority official

"The result will be very bad for the Americans. If they increase the pressure, there will be a crisis between the people of Karbala and the Americans," he said.

He warned occupation forces that if they do any harm to Shia shrines in the holy cities of Karbala or Najaf, "they will face not only Shias in Iraq but Shias all over the world".

Shias are the majority in Iraq and were repressed by Saddam Hussein, a Sunni. Most Shia leaders have advocated cautious cooperation with Iraq's occupying forces in the hope of securing power in a future government.

Anti-American sentiment

Most attacks on US forces have occurred in the so-called "Sunni Triangle" north and west of Baghdad, but Thursday's attack in the Shia city 90km south of the capital showed increasing anti-American sentiment among the young followers of firebrand Shia clerics.

Officials in the US-led occupation authority ruling Iraq believe Hassani has 60 to 100 followers in Karbala.

"He is a mixture of a criminal and a lunatic who believes he has a hotline to God ... He had set up checkpoints in Karbala to fleece money out of people. At one point, his guys went to the governorate building with machetes and two were shot," an occupation authority official said.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 08:34 am
Excerpt

The independent Iraqi weekly Al-Yawm Al-Aakher reveals details on the training of Al-Qa'ida members operating under the orders of Saddam's Presidential Palace two months before the September 11 attacks. The following are excerpts from the article: [1]




Training At Nahrawan and Salman Pak

"An Iraqi officer (L) [only identified by initial] tells us that one day a Land Cruiser belonging to the Personal Security Force (Al-Amn Al-Khass, responsible for the protection of Saddam Hussein) arrived and a senior officer from the Presidential Palace stepped out of it. He was one of those officers who used to stand behind Saddam, which means that he was one of [his] personal bodyguards. After a two-hour meeting with a select group of officers at the Special Forces School, we were informed that we would have dear guests, and that we should train them very well in a high level of secrecy - not to allow anyone to approach them or to talk to them in any way, shape, or form.

"A few days later, about 100 trainees arrived. They were a mixture of Arabs, Arabs from the Peninsula [Saudi Arabia], Muslim Afghans, and other Muslims from various parts of the world. They were divided into two groups, the first one went to Al-Nahrawan and the second to Salman Pak, and this was the group that was trained to hijack airplanes. The training was under the direct supervision of major general (M. DH. L) [only identified by initials] who now serves as a police commander in one of the provinces. Upon the completion of the training most of them left Iraq, while the others stayed in the country through the last battle in Baghdad against the coalition forces."

Full story
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 09:31 am
on MEMRI
Quote:
Despite these high-minded statements, several things make me uneasy whenever I'm asked to look at a story circulated by Memri. First of all, it's a rather mysterious organisation. Its website does not give the names of any people to contact, not even an office address.

The reason for this secrecy, according to a former employee, is that "they don't want suicide bombers walking through the door on Monday morning" (Washington Times, June 20).

This strikes me as a somewhat over-the-top precaution for an institute that simply wants to break down east-west language barriers.

The second thing that makes me uneasy is that the stories selected by Memri for translation follow a familiar pattern: either they reflect badly on the character of Arabs or they in some way further the political agenda of Israel. I am not alone in this unease.

Ibrahim Hooper of the Council on American-Islamic Relations told the Washington Times: "Memri's intent is to find the worst possible quotes from the Muslim world and disseminate them as widely as possible."
... The reason for Memri's air of secrecy becomes clearer when we look at the people behind it. The co-founder and president of Memri, and the registered owner of its website, is an Israeli called Yigal Carmon.

Mr - or rather, Colonel - Carmon spent 22 years in Israeli military intelligence and later served as counter-terrorism adviser to two Israeli prime ministers, Yitzhak Shamir and Yitzhak Rabin.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,773258,00.html
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 10:25 am
http://www.jessicaswell.com/images/LifePostGraphic.jpg

Quote:
... The troops returning home are worried. "We've lost the peace," men tell you. "We can't make it stick." ...
... You try to explain to these Europeans that they expected too much. They answer that they had a right to, that after the last was America was the hope of the world. They talk about the Hoover relief, the work of the Quakers, the speeches of Woodrow Wilson. They don't blame us for the fading of that hope. But they blame us now.

Never has American prestige in Europe been lower.


http://www.kultursmog.com/images/Life-Pic1.jpg

Read the articles
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 11:40 am
my god timber....you now have to link to "midland texas the home of george and laura bush, tommy franks, and wahoo mcdaniel"???
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 11:43 am
Apparently the Pentagon has just conceded that the ill treatment of returning vets at the medical facility in south Georgia -- Fort Stewart -- is true. The investigating reporter from UPI is being interviewed on local radio and says the Pentagon admits the failure, will do something about it.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 03:04 pm
I would be very careful of the link Timber posted. The stories sound fishy,and the "Dos Passos" piece does not sound like John Dos Passos' "voice".
If you recall, a similar blurb was circulating the net a few months ago, comparing the guerilla war in Iraq with the activities of the "werewolves." The story was as false as a stripper's smile.
0 Replies
 
 

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