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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 04:26 pm
Nimh--
I'm glad you're skeptical about Salman Pak. It means that your mind isn't closed.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 05:37 pm
Interview with former Iraqi weapons trainer, Sabah Khodada. He talks about Salman Pak.

Excerpt

After your service in the army, you worked for a secret part of the Iraqi government?

Some of it is not very secretive. But there's another part, which has a lot to do with international terrorism and this kind of operation -- this is very secretive.


Maybe you could tell me what this section is called, and who runs it. And what did it do?

It's called the Division of Special Operations. ... This whole camp where their training is run by the Iraqi [security service]... The government organization [that] basically possesses or have control of the camp is the Iraqi intelligence. But different training people who come, they are headed or sent by different people in the Iraqi government.


You say that this is a secret camp. But what was it like? Was it something you drove by and could see on the highway? Did you need special clearance to go there? How would you describe this place, this location?

If you're driving on those farm roads, you could probably see the edges of the camp, but you wouldn't realize this is a special camp. The camp is huge. And the locations for the training are far from anybody can see them from the outside. But even when we have visitors, even at the level of a minister, or even higher than a minister in the Iraqi government, they will have to drive around the camp or be driven in the camp inside very specific type of a vehicle. They will sit on the back seat, for example, of this vehicle and they would have ... in addition to the shaded windows, they will have to pull down curtains and they snap those curtains on the bottom, to make sure nobody can see anything outside this vehicle while they're driven around.


This is even government officials [who] are not allowed to see this kind of training?

Yes. At the very highest level, they cannot see this training.


What kind of training went on, and who was being trained?

Training is majorly on terrorism. They would be trained on assassinations, kidnapping, hijacking of airplanes, hijacking of buses, public buses, hijacking of trains and all other kinds of operations related to terrorism.

Full Story
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 05:43 pm
hbob, the local library will have the pertinent issue of LIFE magazine available via microfiche ... if not locally, then via the supporting major library of the district. Any good university library will have it too, and Time-Life will provide for-fee reprints. Its real, and there was much similar blather at the time.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 05:51 pm
brand x, the transcript you provided was from an interview on PBS which went on to note that this informant ceased his work for the Saddam govt in 1992 and that "Although U.S. officials acknowledge terrorists were trained at Salman Pak, they say it is unlikely that these activities were related to the Sept. 11 attacks. It should also be noted that the two defectors interviewed for this report have been brought to FRONTLINE's attention by members of the Iraqi National Congress (INC), a dissident organization seeking to overthrow Saddam Hussein.)
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 05:57 pm
It's just info to put in the memory banks, who knows, it may connect to something down the road.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 06:36 pm
Sofia wrote:
Nimh--
I'm glad you're skeptical about Salman Pak. It means that your mind isn't closed.


Yes - of the three things you mentioned, the mobile labs (proven a dud), "other [unspecified] notorious terrorists" (apart from Abu Nidal), and Salman Pak, its the latter that I'm kinda still half-expecting to yield something more.

At the moment there isnt enough evidence - three 'INC-sponsored' defectors whom the CIA does not seem to trust, a photo and the 'expert' estimation of Woolsey c.s. But Brand X's paste-in from Al-Yawm Al-Aakher adds a fourth, be it anonymous, testimony (regardless of who translated it) - and more might be to come. Could well be. No solid reason why not.

As long as we dont have anything substantial about it, its pretty worthless as fodder for a 'we had to go into Iraq to root out Middle Eastern terrorism' type of casus belli, of course. But if more does come up, it will at least strengthen the 'we might have acted on a hunch, but as it turns out it, there was actually a good reason for it' kind of defence. Just gotta wait and see!
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 06:41 pm
Steve, you wrote in a post on 16 October:

Quote:
The common view in Europe is very much that Americans are our cousins with similar values and aspirations. The United States is seen generally as a benign force, somewhat hot headed perhaps, but with the input of European guidance and experience, together there is no problem on earth that cannot be tackled.


I have a friend in London with whom I talk often. She used to say exactly what you have written above, but that all changed with the war. She always revered what she saw as US principles of freedom of the individual, human rights, equality of all citizens, and above all the rule of law as a guiding force. She saw us as the universal good guys. Now, she feels that America has changed its course and become isolationist and imperialistic.

Quote:
The problem with that approach in my view is that it is not realistic. History shows that as great powers emerge a state of rivalry develops between them rather than a tendency towards mutual co-operation.... I think we in Europe have been guilty of assuming that because we want to act in collaboration with the Americans, that this must necessarily be reciprocated. I'm sure there are many Americans who do desperately want partnership with the rest of the world and with Europe in particular, but even if that view is widespread in the US, it does not appear to be dominant, and certainly not under this US administration.


This view is gaining force as the media and the people finally are becoming brave enough to speak out against the acts and guiding principles of this administration. Americans have tended to wear blinders when they think, or don't think, about foreign policy. Many here were frightened into silence by the cries of Traitor, unpatriotic, and other epithets that were flung in response to our protests against the administration's march to war. The dawning of realization that we were fooled, duped, and brain-washed by the administration is slow in coming but it is coming.

Quote:
Given the realities of power politics, I don't believe the US particularly wants to see a strong and united Europe with an equally strong euro acting as a reserve currency against the dollar.


I agree with you on this point. Also, the current issue about a euro defense force is not being looked at favorably by the US. Not a surprise.

Quote:
Sadly the future lies not necessarily in co operation with the US but more likely in economic and political rivalry, and not so much because the Europeans want that, but rather that the US will never give up its current position of dominance without a struggle.

So who will win? Well let me make it clear I'm not talking about war here. If the US and USSR can eyeball each other for 50 years with nuclear weapons I don't expect a nuclear exchange between Paris and New York any time soon.


We two powers did indeed eyeball each other for 50 years and no nukes ever flew. What has happened is that the delicate balance of such containment was lost totally and completely in a stroke by our war on Iraq. No longer is "containment," and negotiation and compromise, the way to strike a balance among nations. We set the cat amongst the pigeons.

Quote:
I believe the actions of the US which appears to be to consolidate its position as global hegemon will have the effect of driving other power blocks in the world together, united in nothing other than their opposition to US influence in what they see as their home territory.


We are already seeing this. Not so much blocs, but they will come. The reaction of North Korea to our war on Iraq makes perfect sense. What do they have to lose by threatening to crank up their nuclear program and ambitions? It gives them a card to play. We have been intransigent in our refusal to deal with them and their need for security in the area. We have played Kim in our press as a mentally ill tyrant and demonized him and the country. We are getting the response that can be expected, and we have no resources to attack North Korea at this point, so we are backing away, inch by inch. We have a similar problem with Iran. They want peaceful nuclear power and perhaps the possibility of weaponry. The first may have been all they wanted before the US attacked Iraq. Now they see what a threat of nuclear capability can do in the world arena.

Quote:
You would then have almost the entire Eurasian continent, with all its resources and peoples and cultures united in its desire to assert itself as the leading power in the world and against the interlopers from across the water(s). Then it really would be the US against the rest of the world, and there can't be much doubt about the outcome.


Are we talking Armageddon? I think our country is the sole force that could change the balance back again, by working with and learning from the wisdom of countries who have been around longer than we have, and by joining in a global effort, through the UN, to work for peace. We have to work in our own self-interest, of course, but can anyone deny any longer that soon the interest of our country will be joined with all others' interest if life is to be sustained on the planet.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 06:42 pm
blatham wrote:
my god timber....you now have to link to "midland texas the home of george and laura bush, tommy franks, and wahoo mcdaniel"???


But what a find though! Havent read the articles, yet, but it looks interesting, and you gotta admit its an impressive find, in terms of parallels-that-might-serve-your-argument.

And, hey, coming up with interesting archive material is a lot more sympathetic a way to to make one's point than their usual tactic of inventing or spinning new stories ...
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 06:44 pm
Interesting news (NYT):

U.S. Set to Cede Part of Control Over Aid to Iraq

Quote:
Under pressure from potential donors, the Bush administration will allow a new agency to determine how to spend billions of dollars in reconstruction assistance for Iraq, administration and international aid officials say.

The new agency, to be independent of the American occupation, will be run by the World Bank and the United Nations. They are to announce the change at a donor conference in Madrid later this week.

The change effectively establishes some of the international control over Iraq that the United States opposed in the drafting of the United Nations Security Council resolution that passed on Thursday. That resolution referred to two previously established agencies devised to ensure that all aid would be monitored and audited.

But diplomats say other countries were unwilling to make donations because they saw the United States as an occupying power controlling Iraq's reconstruction and self-rule. [..] European countries are concerned that the Coalition Provisional Authority "is the decision-making authority in Iraq," a World Bank official said. "For political reasons, they don't want their funds to be perceived as being commingled with funds controlled by the C.P.A. They want their own say over how the money is spent."

American reconstruction aid, like the proposed $20 billion that President Bush is struggling to get through Congress, would go to the previously set up entity, the Development Fund for Iraq, which is run by the occupation administrators and the Iraqis. Other resources are to come from Iraqi oil revenues. This fund has given big contracts to American companies like Halliburton and Bechtel.

But the new agency could open up that process and award contracts through bidding practices open to global companies. Donors could also give directly to Iraq, specifying that their own companies do the work. [..]

In June, when plans for Madrid got started, World Bank and United Nations officials said donors began pressing for an agency outside the control of the occupation.

At first, the Defense Department, which runs the occupation, resisted handing over financial control of Iraq's rebuilding. Instead, the Pentagon set up the Development Fund for Iraq, which is recognized by a United Nations Security Council resolution in May. [..] The administration changed its mind in recent weeks, in part because of the support of Mr. Bremer.

"We had to act because the international community was stonewalling us on aid," said an administration official. According to the official, Mr. Bremer said, " `I need the money so bad we have to move off our principled opposition to the international community being in charge.' " [..]

As it is now envisioned, the agency would oversee two new funds, one managed by the World Bank and the other by various United Nations development agencies.

Those funds would oversee spending from international funds in 14 sectors that the World Bank and the United Nations assessed earlier this month as needing $36 billion in assistance over several years. Those sectors included electricity, sewage, water and health programs, from hospitals to smaller community health centers. [..]

A remaining problem, administration officials and many others said, is that the World Bank and other donors may be reluctant to make loans to Iraq before decisions are made on the $120 billion in outstanding debt it owes to other countries, not to mention the tens of billions of dollars in reparations it owes from its past wars.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 06:50 pm
Thanks for posting that, nimh. It was the best thing I read today in the NYTimes.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 06:54 pm
Does that mean that the Bush administration is finally learning to work with the international community? If that's the case, it's good news. We'll just have to wait and see what transpires in the near future.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 06:56 pm
Maybe, it's simply because the 2004 elections are looming onto their fontal plane.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 07:18 pm
nimh

I love old archival readings too, and they commonly have value in terms of helping to remind us that the present and past are no so unalike as we might think. But these are pretty weak analogies to the present situation and not nearly so compelling as that person with the yellow high-lighter figures.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 08:00 pm
Lie after lie after lie




NYTimes.com > Opinion
Fighting the War at Home

Published: October 15, 2003






TIMES NEWS TRACKER



Letters home from the war front are some of the revered aspects of history, a treasury of soldiers' impressions and firsthand narratives that hold a value apart from the individual lives put firmly on the battle line. It's all the more disturbing, then, that an apparently orchestrated campaign of letter writing has arisen among some of the American forces in Iraq to highlight what are alleged to be overlooked success stories. What amounts to a warmly worded form letter telling of open-armed welcomes and rebuilt infrastructure was printed by hometown newspapers in the mistaken belief that it was the individual composition of the undersigned soldier in Kirkuk, a relatively peaceful city in Iraq. According to the Gannett News Service, which uncovered the deception, one soldier said his sergeant had distributed the letters to the squad, while another traced his to an Army public affairs officer.

The susceptibility of local editors to the letter, in which each Private Everyman describes Iraqi children "in their broken English shouting, `Thank you, Mister,' " is understandable. But the misleading letter, uncovered by Gannett after it was published in 11 newspapers, coincides with the Bush administration's renewed program of defending the war in an ambitious speaking campaign across the nation. With polls registering rising public doubts, the president and his aides are claiming that the news media unfairly play up negative developments and ignore progress in Iraq.

The Pentagon denies that there is any sanctioned propaganda drive behind the five-paragraph letter, but one soldier told of speaking to a public affairs officer about what he thought would be a news release, then being surprised to hear he was being presented as a letter writer whose words had been published in a newspaper back home.

Firm endorsements of the letter's description of the situation in Kirkuk have since been re-registered by most of the soldiers who were supposed to have written letters, but that matters little to anyone who ever marched in the military command system. The Pentagon should nip the form-letter barrage and make sure it is not repeated, if only because it is so counterproductive. Fakery is the worst possible way to answer the public's rising demand for information about the true state of affairs in Iraq.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2003 09:59 pm
I believe it was yesterday's Times which had an article on how difficult the US is making things for non-US bidders in Iraq reconstruction projects. The article has an opener on the front page, but the whole (nasty) story is on about page 16...
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 05:25 am
Thanks v much Kara for your thoughtful analysis of my post, especially as you seem to agree with quite a bit of it!

I have made several references in the past to Zbigniew Brzezinski's book the Grand Chessboard. In fact I'm getting obsessed with it! Final paragraph of the Introduction

Quote:
"The ulitmate objective of American policy should be benign and visionary: to shape a truly co operative global community in keeping with long range trends and with the fundamental interests of humankind. But in the meantime, it is imperative that no Eurasian challenger emerges, capable of dominating Eurasia and thus also challenging America. The formulation of a comprehensive and integrated Eurasian geostrategy is therefore the purpose of this book."


ZB Washington DC April 1997.

(my emphasis)

Note the carefully chosen words "ultimate objective...should be benign..." "But in the meantime it is imperative..."

And to put those two sentences together I think is also significant. Brzezinsky spits out the truth. "We're gonna do this thing. It might hurt for now, but keep an eye on the ultimate objective!"

Regarding Iraqi mobile labs. I didnt see the original Observer article, thanks Blatham

Quote:
The revelation that the mobile labs were to produce hydrogen for artillery balloons will also cause discomfort for the British authorities because the Iraqi army's original system was sold to it by the British company, Marconi Command & Control.


I used to work for the company that supplied the hydrogen generators to Marconi. They were relatively small compact units trailer or truck mounted, producing hydrogen by reacting methanol and water over a catalyst to give hydrogen and carbon dioxide. The hydrogen passed through a 23% silver-palladium diffusion membrane, the other gasses were exhausted. The whole idea was to send aloft a hydrogen filled balloon with a radar 'sond' attached which supplied atmospheric data to the target acquisition system.

I will be pleased to go into more details should our resident government agent request it.

finally
Quote:
Are we talking Armageddon?
Well only in the sense that arma geddin outa here. (bye for now) :wink:
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 06:53 am
Quote:
..The Pentagon denies that there is any sanctioned propaganda drive behind the five-paragraph letter, but one soldier told of speaking to a public affairs officer about what he thought would be a news release, then being surprised to hear he was being presented as a letter writer whose words had been published in a newspaper back home...


Ge, I read this whole story on the 12th or 13th in a UK newspaper but saw no reference to it in the US press except for one small piece. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at this pitiful propaganda attempt.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 07:09 am
Steve, thanks for the key comment from Zbigniew Brzezinski's Grand Chessboard. Lots to think about there.

Not entirely unrelated...I found these excerpts from PM Mohamad of Malaysia worth thinking about. It was helpful to read these comments before reading the piece about Bush chastising him for his comments about the Jews.

Mohamad makes it clear that the Muslim world sees things in black and white and that our support of Israel is one of the main motivations for the Arab world's distrust of the US.

The most telling part of his comments, however, is the part about Islam's denigration of scientific education as being irrelevant to a Muslim's afterlife. Mohamad may have some distorted views (or he may not) but he is intelligent and analytical and we need to support his attempt to bring Malaysia into the modern world. What is missing from the excerpts of the speech is any suggestion as to how this can be done.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 07:10 am
Views on Jews By Malaysian: His Own Words
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Following are excerpts from Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad's speech on Thursday at the Organization of the Islamic Conference in Putrajaya, Malaysia:

We need guns and rockets, bombs and warplanes, tanks and warships for our defense. But because we are discouraged from learning of science and mathematics as giving us no merit for the afterlife, today we have no capacity to produce our own weapons for our defense. We have to buy our weapons from our detractors and enemies. . . .

Today we, the whole Muslim ummah [community], is treated with contempt and dishonor. Our religion is denigrated, our holy places desecrated. Our countries are occupied, our people starved and killed. . . .

Our only reaction is to become more and more angry. Angry people cannot think properly. And so we find some of our people acting irrationally. They launch their own attacks, killing just about everybody, including fellow Muslims, to vent their anger and frustration. . . .

There is a feeling of hopelessness among the Muslim countries and their people. . . . But is it true that we should do and can do nothing for ourselves? Is it true that 1.3 billion people can exert no power to save themselves from the humiliation and oppression inflicted on them by a much smaller enemy? Is there no other way than to ask our young people to blow themselves up and kill people and invite the massacre of more of our own people? . . .

We are actually very strong; 1.3 billion people cannot be simply wiped out. The Europeans killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million, but today the Jews rule the world by proxy: They get others to fight and die for them. . . .

We also know that not all non-Muslims are against us. . . . Even among the Jews, there are many who do not approve of what the Israelis are doing. . . .

We are up against a people who think. They survived 2,000 years of pogroms not by hitting back but by thinking. They invented socialism, communism, human rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong, so that they can enjoy equal rights with others. With these they have now gained control of the most powerful countries and they, this tiny community, have become a world power. . . .

Of late, because of their power and their apparent success, they have become arrogant. And arrogant people, like angry people, will make mistakes, will forget to think. They are already beginning to make mistakes. There may be windows of opportunities for us now and in the future. We must seize these opportunities.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 08:04 am
The following seems to match reality quite well...from an interview with a poli sci prof from Canada...
Quote:
Perhaps no scholar has done as much to illuminate the Strauss phenomenon as Shadia Drury. For fifteen years she has been shining a heat lamp on the Straussians with such books as The Political Ideas of Leo Strauss (1988) and Leo Strauss and the American Right (1997). She is also the author of Alexandre Kojève: the Roots of Postmodern Politics (1994) and Terror and Civilization (forthcoming).

Quote:
Danny Postel: The neo-conservative vision is commonly taken to be about spreading democracy and liberal values globally. And when Strauss is mentioned in the press, he is typically described as a great defender of liberal democracy against totalitarian tyranny. You've written, however, that Strauss had a "profound antipathy to both liberalism and democracy."

Shadia Drury: The idea that Strauss was a great defender of liberal democracy is laughable. I suppose that Strauss's disciples consider it a noble lie. Yet many in the media have been gullible enough to believe it.

How could an admirer of Plato and Nietzsche be a liberal democrat? The ancient philosophers whom Strauss most cherished believed that the unwashed masses were not fit for either truth or liberty, and that giving them these sublime treasures would be like throwing pearls before swine. In contrast to modern political thinkers, the ancients denied that there is any natural right to liberty. Human beings are born neither free nor equal. The natural human condition, they held, is not one of freedom, but of subordination - and in Strauss's estimation they were right in thinking so.

Praising the wisdom of the ancients and condemning the folly of the moderns was the whole point of Strauss's most famous book, Natural Right and History. The cover of the book sports the American Declaration of Independence. But the book is a celebration of nature - not the natural rights of man (as the appearance of the book would lead one to believe) but the natural order of domination and subordination.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article-3-77-1542.jsp
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