Northern Illinois University Shooting

maporsche wrote:

So, you have no logical, rational, objective, or TRUE reason for what you believe?

Got it.

Endless debate over.

She told you her reasoning. You just choose not to listen because in your brain there appears to be no right answers but your own. And this is not the debate thread. She has a right to come into General News and state her opinion without debating you.

Somedays I think you have to be 30 to be considered adult. Or, 40. Maybe by 50..

JustBrooke wrote:

maporsche wrote:

So, you have no logical, rational, objective, or TRUE reason for what you believe?

Got it.

Endless debate over.

She told you her reasoning. You just choose not to listen because in your brain there appears to be no right answers but your own. And this is not the debate thread. She has a right to come into General News and state her opinion without debating you.

And I merely said that her reason is entirely subjective. There is no data that backs up her belief. I was just asking if she had any. She told me to basically go blow myself.

maporsche wrote :

Quote:

YOU might be able to defend yourself, but what about that 105lb teacher down the hall being attacked by a 140lb women's volleyball player who just got a C- on her test.

Should that 105lb teacher fear for her life everytime she administer's a bad grade?

so how about allowing everyone to be armed with a concealed book instead of a gun ?
would that be an acceptable solution ?

i would still be interested to know how you would defend yourself against an assailant shooting you in the back or who'd shoot you with a powerful rifle from some distance ?
would your concealed handgun be of much use ?

there is also the question of armed police officers being shot ; care to answer that question ?

perhaps we'll have to learn how to drive around in an armoured car and have armed guards surround us - perhaps some day it might come to that .
we'd be living on the same level as the rich people in pakistan , saudi-arabia and some central-american states . i'm sure it'll be a lot of fun - at least for some people - but count me out .
hbg

Firepower by definitions seems to be to be a stronger force than a book's weight, in terms of heft. Not necessarily stronger in terms of power of the content, of course. You'd like me to go research the effect of various gun blasts? Don't be silly.

How about taking into account that a nutcase bludgeoning people with a book is going to be a lot easier to stop than a nutcase with a gun? I doubt that Cho guy could have taken out 30-some-odd people with a knife before he was stopped (prolly even less had the weapon been a book, depending on the book--I'm sure the Holy Bobble is nigh on unstoppable.)

How about taking into account that a nutcase bludgeoning people with a book is going to be a lot easier to stop than a nutcase with a gun? I doubt that Cho guy could have taken out 30-some-odd people with a knife before he was stopped (prolly even less had the weapon been a book, depending on the book--I'm sure the Holy Bobble is nigh on unstoppable.)

You act like students are going to turn in to monkeys and play with their guns like they're toys. These are adults. Many adults carry concealed everyday (millions of people), and you don't see them shooting up the place.

You scenerio could easily occur with pocket knives too.

Everyone can legally carry those.

If a student would be willing to shoot a teacher over a poor grade, why wouldn't they be willing to stab him?

You're a moron if you think that allowing concealed carry on a college campus would lead to 500 people shooting their teachers for every act of discipline they impose.

And to answer you questions, YES I would be willing to be a teacher on a campus that allowed concealed carry.

But you realize these particular nutcases don't bring books with them, do they? They don't obey the "no guns allowed on campus" laws. Often, it seems, criminals tend to not obey laws. It's sorta in the definition.

Utah students hide guns, head to class

* Story Highlights
* Utah is only state where students, professors can carry guns at all public colleges
* One University of Utah student carries a firearm so he won't become a 'victim'
* Another student says she feels less safe, knowing classmates might have guns
* News from your campus? Send us an I-Report

By Joshua Molina
Special to CNN

CNNU campus correspondent Joshua Molina is a senior at Brigham Young University. CNNU is a feature that provides student perspectives on news and trends from colleges across the United States. The views expressed in this article are not necessarily those of CNN, its affiliates or the schools where the campus correspondents are based.

SALT LAKE CITY, Utah (CNN) -- The senior at the University of Utah gets dressed and then decides which gun is easiest to conceal under his clothes.

If he's wearing a T-shirt, he'll take a smaller, low-profile gun to class. If he's wearing a coat, he may carry a different weapon, he said.

He started carrying a gun to class after the massacre at Virginia Tech, but the student says he's not part of the problem of campus shootings and could instead be part of a solution.

Nick, who asked not to be fully identified so his fellow students wouldn't know he carried a gun, says he has had a concealed weapons permit for more than three years. But it was Seung-Hui Cho's murderous campus rampage that made him take a gun to class.

"Last year, after Virginia Tech, I thought 'I'm not going to be a victim,' " Nick said.

"My first thought was 'how tragic.' But then I couldn't help but think it could've been different if they'd allowed the students the right to protect themselves."

Days after another campus shooting -- in which five students and the gunman died at Northern Illinois University -- students at colleges in Utah, the only state to allow weapons at all public universities, are attending classes. See which states have laws about hidden weapons on campus »

Nick says his gun doesn't make him feel immune from attack. "But I feel that I will be able to protect myself, and I'm confident in my training and my ability," he said.

His confidence is not shared by fellow student Griselda Espinoza, who recently transferred to the university. Some 28,000 students attend the school, as of the latest enrollment figures.

"I feel less safe knowing that a stranger sitting beside me in class may have a gun in his or her backpack," she said.

"The only people that should carry guns are trained officials."

University of Utah spokeswoman Coralie Alder stressed that although the school has become a poster child in the media regarding guns on campus, the debate is really a statewide issue.

"The university is following the law as determined by the Utah Legislature during last year's session, which allows concealed weapon permit holders to carry guns on university and colleges campuses, as well as other locations," she said.

Amanda Covington, Utah State Board of Regents spokeswoman, would not comment on the current gun laws on school campuses.

However, she said the regents are opposing a legislative proposal to allow people with concealed weapons permits to have the weapons visible in public.

"We are worried that it may affect their [students' and teachers'] willingness or desire to go to or teach a class on campus," she said.

The University of Utah, based in Salt Lake City, had prohibited firearms on its campus until that ban was struck down by the state's Supreme Court in late 2006. The institution, backed by all other universities in the state, is still fighting through federal courts to reinstate the ban.

But state legislators could be moving in the opposite direction, considering a bill to modify current law to allow people in Utah -- including students -- to carry loaded weapons openly.

Utah State Representative Curtis Oda said the bill, which he is sponsoring, is merely to clarify that people with weapons permits may carry a gun openly or -- with a concealed permit -- they may hide it for the sake of surprise.

He stressed that people with permits have gone through rigorous checks.

"When you see someone with a gun, you are looking at some of the most law-abiding people in the state," he said.

The issue goes beyond campus. Last year, a few miles from the University of Utah, a man walked into Trolley Square, a Salt Lake City shopping mall, and opened fire. Police were there in only three minutes, but the shooter had already killed five people and wounded four others.

"And not just shootings, but [serial killer] Ted Bundy did some of his crimes at the University of Utah campus," said David Seelly, a recent University of Utah graduate who says he carried a concealed gun on campus.

"If one of those ladies was a concealed-weapon holder, she could've stopped him before he did as much as he did."

To get a permit to carry a concealed weapon, people in Utah must, among other things:

* Be 21 years old

* Have no criminal record of violent, immoral or substance-related crime

* Be mentally competent.

Student Kevin Rechtenbach of the University of Utah said he was open to carrying a gun, but not certain that would solve problems.

"If acts of terrorism continue on campus, then I will have no choice but to carry a concealed weapon," he said.

"But you see, that is where the problem lies: Everybody will end up carrying concealed weapons, and everyday problems will be solved with guns rather than words or even fists."

The only places on campus that have restrictions are the dormitories. Students can request a roommate who doesn't carry a gun.

Private colleges in Utah, like the Mormon Church-owned Brigham Young University in Provo, do have more power to ban weapons on campus, but that, too, causes disagreement among students.

"I own some guns, and I wish I was allowed to have them at school," said Collin Barker, a BYU student. "I would just keep [them] in my car for target shooting."

Casey Matheny, from Plano, Texas, now studying at BYU, appeared indifferent to the debate over students carrying guns.

"I don't mind if they have one, I just don't want to know about it," he said.

Rob Morrison, a BYU student from Ontario, Canada, doesn't think that having guns on campus would necessarily stop a potential killer.

"The people that do it want to commit suicide anyway," Morrison said. "But it would give students a chance to defend themselves, and at Virginia Tech, it could have ended sooner than it did."

Utah students hide guns, head to class

Attacks, rowdiness rattling many at UMass-Amherst
By Peter Schworm
Globe Staff / February 21, 2008

AMHERST - A raucous off-campus house party erupting into a drunken, bloody brawl. Athletes allegedly attacking other partygoers with baseball bats, lacrosse sticks, and bottles. Two students facing attempted murder charges in separate late-night dormitory confrontations that included an alleged rape and a racially charged double stabbing.

That's the grim police blotter at UMass-Amherst over just the past three weeks, a spate of violence that has deeply rattled many students and faculty and left administrators pleading for peace. Even for a campus infamous for rowdy partying and occasional outbursts of violence, the scope and severity, over such a short time frame, have stirred widespread anger and alarm.

The rash of attacks, which law enforcement and college officials describe as highly unusual for UMass, has also prompted soul-searching about the effectiveness of efforts to curb the binge drinking that is believed to be fueling violence.

"We need to shift away from looking at each individual incident, and toward looking at this as a cultural problem," said Marianne Winters, director of the campus women's center. "There's this anticipation, almost an expectation, on campus that violence is a possibility."

UMass spokesman Ed Blaguszewski said administrators are highly concerned about the violence, but that each episode involved unrelated people and circumstances. He asserted that the campus is safe overall and pointed out that alcohol-fueled fights are not uncommon on large campuses.

"These are very serious and troubling incidents," he said. "But it is not a UMass-Amherst-specific problem. This is an issue across the country, particularly at large flagships."

Of UMass-Amherst's 25,000 students, 19,000 are undergraduates. About 12,000 students live on campus, and Blaguszewski said the university is working with Amherst police to crack down on unruly off-campus parties.

In response to the recent events, the university is also increasing campus police patrols, particulary around dormitories and has urged residential staff to report suspicious behavior, he said.

Some students say altercations are inevitable on a large campus.

"It's a huge school and kind of like its own city," said freshman Nicholas Leoutsakos. "I'm not surprised if there are jackasses who want to hurt other people."

At a student forum last week to discuss the violence, many students focused on the most highly publicized of the three recent criminal incidents.

Jason Vassell, a 23-year-old student who was popular on campus, was charged with stabbing John Bowes, 20, who is not a UMass student, several times around 5 a.m. in a dormitory. Many students said they believed Vassell was defending himself in the confrontation, which police said began when Bowes shouted racial slurs at Vassell, who is black. Bowes also faces criminal charges.

Another UMass student was charged with attempting to rape and strangle a student on campus.

Those episodes, along with the off-campus brawl involving several lacrosse players, three of whom face criminal charges, occurred earlier this month. The five students who face charges in those incidents are no longer at the university, officials said.

In the latest incident, campus police found several people last weekend outside high-rise dorms with blood on them, a half-hour after Amherst police broke up an off-campus melee. Police said they are investigating but have made no arrests.

Amherst Police Chief Charles L. Scherpa said the surge of violence, while unusual, is part of a longstanding campus culture of drunken rowdiness that for many has become a rite of passage.

"Every weekend, we could make hundreds of arrests" for disorderly conduct and vandalism, he said.

University officials, however, said recent events mask overall progress in controlling troublesome students.

"In recent years, campus officials have taken a number of steps to enhance public safety at UMass-Amherst, and we believe that those efforts are bearing fruit," said Robert Connolly, a spokesman for the UMass system.

In 2006, the university and town police redoubled efforts to rein in the school's notorious party scene, boosting enforcement and giving town police the authority to respond to on-campus disruptions. The crackdown followed mounting pressure from state and university leaders who said the university's rowdy image detracted from its goal of becoming an elite public research university.

Blaguszewski said alcohol education and outreach programs have reduced binge drinking by 25 percent, according to student surveys conducted by the university. Binge drinking is defined as downing at least four drinks in one sitting three times over two weeks.

"We feel we've made progress," he said. "But still these episodes happen, here and at other campuses. We just have to remain vigilant."

University officials said that the rowdiest parties occur off-campus, where the university has little control. A town-university coalition is proposing a measure that would give local law enforcement broader authority to break up disruptive parties and hold hosts responsible for serving alcohol to minors.

UMass has a history of student outbursts. In December 2006, nearly 2,000 students rioted after the UMass football team lost the national Division 1-AA championship game, smashing windows, setting fire to trash cans, and pelting police officers with debris.

In 2003, about 1,000 students overturned cars, set fires, and threw bottles at police after a Red Sox playoff game.

Jeff Napolitano, president of the college's Graduate Student Senate, said the increasing concentration of first-year students in one section of campus has exacerbated the rowdiness. "When the university packs freshmen, who have no experience living on their own, into one area, there are bound to be problems," he said.

Freshman Elizabeth Maynard said that fights at parties are frequent and that the violence worries her. "I definitely think it makes me a little more wary" she said.

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