1
   

The Failed Presidency.

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Oct, 2003 04:40 pm
I would have to think one's perception of what may or may not be extreme would depend heavily on one's own proximity to either extreme. One faction I find in the minority here, at least on the political forums, are Centrists. I see the extremists of both persuasions as outnumbering the moderates. Of course, I consider myself a moderate Shocked Laughing
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2003 07:30 pm
timberlandko wrote:
I would have to think one's perception of what may or may not be extreme would depend heavily on one's own proximity to either extreme. One faction I find in the minority here, at least on the political forums, are Centrists. I see the extremists of both persuasions as outnumbering the moderates. Of course, I consider myself a moderate Shocked Laughing

And I suppose you consider me an extremist, though God only knows why... :wink:
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2003 08:06 pm
I thought everyone thought they were centrists? I know I do. Wink
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2003 08:29 pm
We're all moderates on this bus ... Laughing
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2003 09:28 pm
This is a bus? Let me off, quick!
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2003 10:46 pm
hobitbob wrote:
I thought everyone thought they were centrists? I know I do. Wink

Oh, I don't think I'm a centrist; rather I have strongly held opinions which--taken alone--would place me at either political pole:

- Against federal welfare programs ("conservative")
- For same-gender civil unions ("liberal")
- Against affirmative action ("conservative")
- Against the war on drugs ("liberal")
- Against Roe V. Wade ("conservative")
- Against banning abortion ("liberal")
...
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2003 12:02 am
Not much for me to disagree with there, Scrat.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2003 08:33 am
timberlandko wrote:
Not much for me to disagree with there, Scrat.

Cool
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2003 03:16 pm
Good list, Scrat. There are far too many artificial divisions in these discussions. Although my list isn't the same as yours, mine is just as varied and "eccentric" (not centrist, Timber!). And my list would probably be just as annoying to those who cling to one side or another, don't rethink their positions in the face of a constantly changing reality.

Kindly explicate your pairing:

Against Roe V. Wade ("conservative")
Against banning abortion ("liberal")

We may be on the same page here, but then again maybe not...
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2003 02:14 pm
I'm a Libertarian, not a quasi, but real one. If it doesn't hurt another, get out of my face Laughing

I'm also against welfare programs for other nations - especially, $27 billion ones Shocked and welfare programs for the rich Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2003 02:38 pm
Tartarin wrote:
Kindly explicate your pairing:

Against Roe V. Wade ("conservative")
Against banning abortion ("liberal")

We may be on the same page here, but then again maybe not...

Gladly.

I am against Roe V. Wade, and hope to one day see it overturned, because it is bad law. The court reached into the Constitution like it was a tophat and pulled out Roe V. Wade like it was pulling out a rabbit. The premise--a Constitutional right to privacy--was a convenient fiction.

My stance against banning abortion (we're talking federal ban here) is based on the same reasoning; the feds have no standing in the abortion debate. Abortion is an issue between the people and the states, until someone steps up and amends the Constitution to change that (and I would prefer they not do so). If a given state wants to ban abortion, that's their business, though I wouldn't support an effort to ban abortion in my state.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2003 02:55 pm
In George we trust?Our prez talks to god...who talks back?
Quote:


Bush's War Plan Is Scarier Than He's Saying
The Widening Crusade
by Sydney H. Schanberg
October 15 - 21, 2003

If some wishful Americans are still hoping President Bush will acknowledge that his imperial foreign policy has stumbled in Iraq and needs fixing or reining in, they should put aside those reveries. He's going all the way?-and taking us with him.

The Israeli bombing raid on Syria October 5 was an expansion of the Bush policy, carried out by the Sharon government but with the implicit approval of Washington. The government in Iran, said to be seeking to develop a nuclear weapon, reportedly expects to be the next target.

No one who believes in democracy need feel any empathy toward the governments of Syria and Iran, for they assist the terrorist movement, yet if the Bush White House is going to use its preeminent military force to subdue and neutralize all "evildoers" and adversaries everywhere in the world, the American public should be told now. Such an undertaking would be virtually endless and would require the sacrifice of enormous blood and treasure.

With no guarantee of success. And no precedent in history for such a crusade having lasting effect.

People close to the president say that his conversion to evangelical Methodism, after a life of aimless carousing, markedly informs his policies, both foreign and domestic. In the soon-to-be-published The Faith of George W. Bush (Tarcher/Penguin), a sympathetic account of this religious journey, author Stephen Mansfield writes (in the advance proofs) that in the election year 2000, Bush told Texas preacher James Robison, one of his spiritual mentors: "I feel like God wants me to run for president. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. . . . I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it."

Mansfield also reports: "Aides found him face down on the floor in prayer in the Oval Office. It became known that he refused to eat sweets while American troops were in Iraq, a partial fast seldom reported of an American president. And he framed America's challenges in nearly biblical language. Saddam Hussein is an evildoer. He has to go." The author concludes: " . . . the Bush administration does deeply reflect its leader, and this means that policy, even in military matters, will be processed in terms of the personal, in terms of the moral, and in terms of a sense of divine purpose that propels the present to meet the challenges of its time."

Some who read this article may choose to view it as the partisan perspective of a political liberal. But I have experienced wars?-in India and Indochina?-and have measured their results. And most of the men and women who are advocating the Bush Doctrine have not. You will find few generals among them. They are, instead, academics and think-tank people and born-again missionaries. One must not entertain any illusion that they are only opportunists in search of power, for most of them truly believe in their vision of a world crusade under the American flag. They are serious, and they now have power at the top.

I believe that last week's blitz of aggressive speeches and spin by the president and his chief counselors removed all doubt of his intentions.

"As long as George W. Bush is president of the United States," Vice President Cheney told the friendly Heritage Foundation, "this country will not permit gathering threats to become certain tragedies." The president himself must tell us now what this vow entails.

The public relations deluge by Bush, Cheney, Secretary of State Colin Powell, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld seemed to be aimed at denying any policy fumbles and insisting that the liberal press was ignoring the positive developments in Iraq.

Mr. Cheney, the president's usual attack dog, aimed his sharpest and most sneering words at those who offer dissent about the administration's foreign and economic policies. Perhaps seeking to stifle such criticism, he raised the specter of terrorists acquiring weapons of mass destruction that "could bring devastation to our country on a scale we have never experienced. Instead of losing thousands of lives, we might lose tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of lives in a single day of horror." His implication was that Saddam Hussein in particular had presented this threat?-when virtually all the available intelligence shows that Iraq's weapons programs had been crippled or drastically diminished by UN inspections and economic sanctions imposed after the first Gulf war in 1991.

But beyond all the distortions and exaggerations and falsehoods the Bush people engaged in to rally public support for the Iraq war, what I have never understood, from the 9-11 day of tragedy onward, is why this White House has not called on the American people to be part of the war effort, to make the sacrifices civilians have always made when this country is at war.

There has been no call for rationing or conservation of critical supplies, such as gasoline. There has been no call for obligatory national service in community aid projects or emergency services. As he sent 150,000 soldiers into battle and now asks them to remain in harm's way longer than expected, the president never raised even the possibility of reinstating the military draft, perhaps the most democratizing influence in the nation's history. Instead, he has cut taxes hugely, mostly for affluent Americans, saying this would put money into circulation and create jobs. Since Bush began the tax cutting two and a half years ago, 2.7 million jobs have disappeared.

All this I don't understand. If it's a crisis?-and global terrorism surely is?-then why hasn't the president acted accordingly? What he did do, when he sent out those first tax rebate checks, was to tell us to go shopping. Buy clothes for the kids, tires for the car?-this would get the economy humming. How does that measure up as a thoughtful, farsighted fiscal plan?

In effect, George Bush says, believe in me and I will lead you out of darkness. But he doesn't tell us any details. And it's in the details where the true costs are buried?-human costs and the cost to our notion of ourselves as helpers and sharers, not slayers. No one seems to be asking themselves: If in the end the crusade is victorious, what is it we will have won? The White House never asked that question in Vietnam either.

For those who would dispute the assertion that the Bush Doctrine is a global military-based policy and is not just about liberating the Iraqi people, it's crucial to look back to the policy's origins and examine its founding documents.

The Bush Doctrine did get its birth push from Iraq?-specifically from the outcome of the 1991 Gulf war, when the U.S.-led military coalition forced Saddam Hussein's troops out of Kuwait but stopped short of toppling the dictator and his oppressive government. The president then was a different George Bush, the father of the current president. The father ordered the military not to move on Baghdad, saying that the UN resolution underpinning the allied coalition did not authorize a regime change. Dick Cheney was the first George Bush's Pentagon chief. He said nothing critical at the time, but apparently he came to regret the failure to get rid of the Baghdad dictator.

A few years later, in June 1997, a group of neoconservatives formed an entity called the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) and issued a Statement of Principles. "The history of the 20th Century," the statement said, "should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they become dire." One of its formal principles called for a major increase in defense spending "to carry out our global responsibilities today." Others cited the "need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values" and underscored "America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity and our principles." This, the statement said, constituted "a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity."

Among the 25 signatories to the PNAC founding statement were Dick Cheney, I. Lewis Libby (Cheney's chief of staff), Donald Rumsfeld (who was also defense secretary under President Ford), and Paul Wolfowitz (Rumsfeld's No. 2 at the Pentagon, who was head of the Pentagon policy team in the first Bush presidency, reporting to Cheney, who was then defense secretary). Obviously, this fraternity has been marinating together for a long time. Other signers whose names might ring familiar were Elliot Abrams, Gary Bauer, William J. Bennett, Jeb Bush, and Norman Podhoretz.

Three years and several aggressive position papers later?-in September 2000, just two months before George W. Bush, the son, was elected president?-the PNAC put military flesh on its statement of principles with a detailed 81-page report, "Rebuilding America's Defenses." The report set several "core missions" for U.S. military forces, which included maintaining nuclear superiority, expanding the armed forces by 200,000 active-duty personnel, and "repositioning" those forces "to respond to 21st century strategic realities."

The most startling mission is described as follows: "Fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theater wars." The report depicts these potential wars as "large scale" and "spread across [the] globe."

Another escalation proposed for the military by the PNAC is to "perform the 'constabulary' duties associated with shaping the security environment in critical regions."

As for homeland security, the PNAC report says: "Develop and deploy global missile defenses to defend the American homeland and American allies, and to provide a secure basis for U.S. power projection around the world. Control the new 'international commons' of space and 'cyberspace,' and pave the way for the creation of a new military service?-U.S. Space Forces?-with the mission of space control."

Perhaps the eeriest sentence in the report is found on page 51: "The process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event?-like a new Pearl Harbor."

Apparently for the neoconservative civilians who are running the Iraq campaign, 9-11 was that catalyzing event?-for they are now operating at full speed toward multiple, simultaneous wars. The PNAC documents can be found online at newamericancentury.org.

In the end, the answers lie with this president?-and later maybe with Congress and the American voters. Is he so committed to this imperial policy that he is unable to consider rethinking it? In short, is his mind closed? And if so, how many wars will he take us into?

These are not questions in a college debate, where the answers have no consequences. When a president's closest advisers and military planners are patrons of a policy that speaks matter-of-factly of fighting multiple, simultaneous, large-scale wars across the globe, people have a right to be told about it.

In his new book, Winning Modern Wars, retired general Wesley Clark, a candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination, offered a window into the Bush serial-war planning. He writes that serious planning for the Iraq war had already begun only two months after the 9-11 attack, and adds:

"As I went back through the Pentagon in November 2001, one of the senior military staff officers had time for a chat. Yes, we were still on track for going against Iraq, he said. But there was more. This was being discussed as part of a five-year campaign plan, he said, and there were a total of seven countries, beginning with Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia and Sudan. . . . I left the Pentagon that afternoon deeply concerned."

A five-year military campaign. Seven countries. How far has the White House taken this plan? And how long can the president keep the nation in the dark, emerging from his White House cocoon only to speak to us in slogans and the sterile language of pep rallies?
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2003 02:58 pm
the one God the Repubs belive in:Mammon:
Quote:


President Sees Election Cash in Rebuilding Iraq
Bush's Golden Vision
by Roger Trilling
October 15 - 21, 2003


In October 1, members of the Iraqi Governing Council confronted L. Paul Bremer, head of the Coalition Provisional Authority and the man who had appointed them. They were protesting his decision to spend $1.2 billion training a new Iraqi police force?-in Jordan. Bremer claimed that the facilities required did not exist in Iraq. The council demurred, insisting that their country not only had the facilities but could provide them more cheaply. "If we had voted, a majority would have rejected it," one council member said to The New York Times. "He told us what he did. He did not ask us."

The money for Jordan came out of a $60 billion funding package for Iraq, conjured by Congress in April at the president's request. In the next few weeks, they will probably approve another $87 billion, of which $70 billion is tabbed for Baghdad. That's the easy part. What's more complicated is how it will be spent, both at home and abroad. And as subcontracts awarded to Saudi conglomerates or Kuwaiti telecoms make clear, there will be a broad impact to these taxpayer billions suddenly flowing to the Persian Gulf.

Which was part of the idea all along. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and other neoconservatives have long justified regime change in Iraq as the first step in a larger, longer, vastly more ambitious regional transformation. And while some critics have focused on the military dimension?-Syria next, then Iran?-right now it's about money. More soldiers may be a possibility, but contractors are inevitable.

So is a certain amount of campaign cash, cycled back from those who profit in the reconstruction. Against the backdrop of a treasury-draining scheme to remake the world, a few million dollars in corporate contributions to a sitting president may seem insignificant, but one can be sure they matter to Bush?-and to his political opponents. For Democrats, the spectacle of a Republican administration larding out contracts to close allies is a political disaster.

"A hundred-fifty billion dollars is a large amount of money with no incumbent claimant," observed John Pike, of globalsecurity.org, a nonpartisan think tank for defense. "It's new money, up for grabs, and the campaign effects are a given. Such a large sum serves to consolidate the existing distribution of power in Washington, where one party is in control, and there's an uncompetitive electoral system in Congress. So this will further undermine the pretense that we live in a functional democracy?-meaning, you can look forward to another round of redistricting after the next election!"

Toward that end, the administration is already putting its own people in place, gatekeepers who will manage that potentially lucrative union between American investment and Iraqi resources. Like Thomas Foley, an old business-school friend of the president's, and also one of his 2000 Connecticut campaign bosses. Foley will decide which of Iraq's roughly 200 state-owned enterprises are fit to survive.

Iraq is being set up for auction, and in Washington and Baghdad, the administration is lining up bidders. Lawyers and lobbyists, many with deep ties to the Republican electoral machine, are corralling investors ready to join in the enormous gamble. "If you go to the Four Seasons and shout out 'Who's working on a deal in Iraq?' everybody there will raise their hand," said Ed Rogers, one of the GOP's top lobbyists in Washington, according to The Hill. With non-American companies frozen out, and the UN withdrawing its mission, U.S. firms will be on their own, just the way the administration wants it.

Estimates vary on how long it will take to get Iraq up and running, but progress will be measured in oil production: Iraq is hovering around a million barrels a day now (the Coalition Provisional Authority claims 1.7); it was about 2.7 million under Saddam; 3.5 is Iraq's traditional OPEC quota, and 6 million barrels would make Iraq the rival of Russia or Saudi Arabia. At $25 to $30 a barrel, go figure. Oil experts say it will take at least five years. The administration says two.

Either way, it will depend on the army and the marines?-and perhaps Bush's re-election?-to stay the course.

For now, Iraqi reconstruction is dominated by military needs, and these will generate a new infrastructure. "The big-ticket items?-telecommunications systems, satellite uplinks?-are related to command-and-control functions," military analyst Chris Hellman explained. "But we're also going to upgrade port facilities, build access roads, fence lines, airfields, helipads . . . and anything related to military flow, either air or sealift, we'll leave behind."

Many have wondered whether the U.S. will, like an old colonial power, install garrisons in Iraq. Well, yes and no. Modern military technology is designed to accommodate early departures as well as lengthy occupations. "We're seeing some very permanent-looking temporary facilities," Hellman said. "And some of these bases will be used by the Iraqi army and police. But we're building to U.S. military specs, and that's what the Iraqis will be buying, or be given. Why? Because we've been there twice in a decade, and the military thinks it'll be nice to have them there if we need to come back."

The U.S. engagement is open-ended, in terms of time, money, and possible casualties. Its goals?-establishing security, basic social services, and a functioning democracy?-are vague, and vulnerable to endless sabotage. If things go badly, we can just turn Iraq over to an elected or appointed proxy (one State Department source called neocon favorite Ahmed Chalabi "our permanent exit strategy"). If things go well, the U.S. military could withdraw in a few years. But one thing is sure: We're spending money today as if there will be a tomorrow, and nobody believes in Iraq's tomorrows like this administration.

"Leaders in the region speak of a new Arab charter that champions internal reform, greater political participation, economic openness, and free trade," President Bush told the American Enterprise Institute last February. "A new regime in Iraq would serve as a dramatic and inspiring example of freedom for other nations in the region."

It's a tall order. "We're only training about 40,000 troops, and so far there's been no mention of an Iraqi air force," Pike explained. "It's a rough neighborhood, so for some years to come, only the U.S. presence will deter Syria, Iran, or Turkey. But the real pacing factor affecting our presence there will be the extent to which the U.S. can install a security apparat capable of controlling the police, the army, the politicos, and other key institutions in Iraqi society." After 30 years of Saddam's dictatorship, that's an ominous thought. But it may help explain why the Iraqi Governing Council was so upset about that police training program in Jordan.

Given the continuing absence of weapons of mass destruction, the reasons for war remain a mystery. Similarly, post-war planning has always been a secret. In November 2002, as the UN sent weapons inspectors into Iraq, the army hired Kellogg Brown & Root (KBR), a subsidiary of Halliburton, to develop plans for running Iraq's oil fields. Vice President Cheney had been Halliburton's CEO until 2000, and on March 8, just 11 days before the war began, KBR got a long-term contract for the repair and maintenance of Iraq's oil fields.

Also in early March, as the UN debate unraveled, the Pentagon solicited private bids from half a dozen U.S. construction companies to repair Iraqi infrastructure. It was a closed process. Other potential bidders were not invited to compete, because of the pressing need for speed and the small number of companies with appropriate security clearances.

On March 25, less than a week into the conflict, President Bush asked Congress for $62 billion to pay for the war and begin reconstruction. A few weeks later, Bechtel, a firm strongly identified with the GOP, emerged as the clear winner in the contest to rebuild Iraq. Although Democrats on various oversight committees began to complain about the closed nature of the bidding process, the subtext of their concern was that the Pentagon was choosing companies with strong Republican ties. Given the money involved, it seemed an ominous precedent in an election year.

On September 17, Bush asked for the $87 billion supplemental provision. Staffers on congressional oversight committees, however, were shocked to discover that, for the $20 billion earmarked for Iraqi reconstruction costs, no one could tell them how the numbers were derived or who came up with them. The budget also allocates billions for classified purposes, which caused Democratic senator Edward Kennedy to accuse the Pentagon of administering a slush fund for bribing potential coalition allies. The bill also designates at least $5 billion as "transfer funds," which Secretary Rumsfeld can redirect as he deems fit. It's a mysterious document.

Ordinarily, the State Department, through its Agency for International Development (AID), would oversee reconstruction costs. But in a bitter and public turf war, Rumsfeld had wrested control from Powell, and AID money was to be administered by L. Paul Bremer, who reports only to the Pentagon, which reports only to the White House. Not only was the State Department frozen out?-so was Congress. They had been asked to appropriate billions for reconstruction, only to see it disappear into a closed circuit running from the White House, which requested the money, through Donald Rumsfeld, to the Coalition Provisional Authority in Baghdad, which oversees its spending.

Congress is responsible for the budget, but Republicans also owe a special fealty to President Bush, who is their party's star fundraiser, and can influence their own re-election prospects. So when it comes to voting on the president's budget, they have divided loyalties. This is not the case for Democrats, who are acutely aware that although the $150 billion is for Iraq, most of it will be spent in Washington. Beginning in the spring, and with growing momentum through the summer and fall, Washington's law and lobby firms started mobilizing around the new business opportunities popping up in Baghdad.

One of the most conspicuous is New Bridge Strategies, which was created for this purpose. Its vice chair is Ed Rogers, a founding partner in one of Washington's most powerful Republican lobby firms, Barbour Griffith & Rogers (BGR). His partner Haley Barbour ran the Republican National Committee in the mid '90s, and helped organize the GOP takeover of Congress in 1994. Another BGR principal, Jennifer Larkin, ran the House Conservative Action Team, now called the Republican Study Committee, which their website calls "the largest, most influential Republican member organization in Congress." Yet another BGR officer, Keith Schuette, helped start and run the International Republican Institute, which represents the party's interests overseas. "The bottom line on New Bridge is that it appears to be very closely linked to BGR, which has many overlapping ties to the highest levels of the Republican Party," said Thomas Ferguson, a campaign finance expert at the University of Massachusetts at Boston.

New Bridge's chairman is Joe Allbaugh, who was often referred to as the third point, with Karl Rove and Karen Hughes, in the president's "iron triangle." In the '90s, Allbaugh served as Governor Bush's chief of staff, and then as national campaign manager for Bush-Cheney 2000. Since then, he has trained for Iraq's reconstruction as head of FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

When Allbaugh resigned to take on his duties at New Bridge, it was widely seen as a cash-out. But there is little reason to believe he would walk out on his friend and boss on the verge of a presidential election. As a lobbyist, he may not be leaving Bush's circle so much as becoming a different kind of operative, able to bind corporate and lobbying dollars to White House priorities.

On October 5, much to Secretary Rumsfeld's surprise, Iraq officially became a White House operation. Placed under the stewardship of the National Security Council, Iraq is now a Condi Rice responsibility, which puts it about halfway between Rumsfeld and Karl Rove. According to the next day's New York Times, "Ms. Rice called it 'a recognition by everyone that we are in a different phase now' that Congress is considering Mr. Bush's . . . [supplemental] request."

Why congressional deliberations would usher in a different phase was left unstated, but the relation between Congress and the national security advisor became clear four days later. Bill Young, chair of the House Committee on Appropriations, was concerned that Rice, who is appointed by the president and not confirmed by Congress, cannot be called before Congress, nor compelled to turn over information?-on, say, how contracts get awarded. As such, he drafted an amendment precluding her stewardship over the spending. It passed unanimously.

Rice, meanwhile, had already appointed a four-person steering committee, called the Iraq Stabilization Group. Their brief was to coordinate the various government agencies and keep things moving in Baghdad. Why? Because as the campaign season progresses, Iraq's predicament will become an ever more sensitive issue. "Forget all the talk about Arab democracy," Professor Ferguson said. "The election these guys are focused on is right here at home."
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2003 05:27 pm
Well, I'd tend to agree about Roe. And certainly about the standing of federal law. I'm getting a real bean up my schnozz about the federal government accruing power. Roe was sloppy, well-intentioned, a mirror of the times.

I think this is an area (federal overreaching) in which conservatives and liberals could find common ground, if they could just keep their knees from jerking.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 07:14 am
hobitbob,

This is a site dedicated to dialogue and discussion - not blogging. Merely pasting long articles from unnamed publications does not contribute to the quality of the dialogue here. Each of the several long articles with which you have cluttered this and other threads is highly partisan. None makes any attempt to achieve balance or objective understanding, instead each is a one-sided interpretation of very selectively reported anecdotes and generally unsupported allegations.

Are you unable to speak for yourself? Isn't it a bit boorish of you to thrust these very long and one-sided screeds in what ought to be a dialogue among the contributors here?
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 08:20 am
BillW wrote:
I'm a Libertarian, not a quasi, but real one. If it doesn't hurt another, get out of my face Laughing

I'm also against welfare programs for other nations - especially, $27 billion ones Shocked and welfare programs for the rich Rolling Eyes


go ahead on Bill...... Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation :wink:
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 08:55 am
george wrote:
Each of the several long articles ... is highly partisan. None makes any attempt to achieve balance or objective understanding, instead each is a one-sided interpretation of very selectively reported anecdotes and generally unsupported allegations.
One is known by the company one keeps and one's credentials and probity are validated by one's actions.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 10:12 am
george and timber

You get no agreement from me as regards information or opinion pasted into these threads. Each of us can choose to read all, or parts, or even - though this seems a bit dunderheaded - even none of an article that's been included. I spoke about this yesterday on another thread. Knowledge is acquired through depth and breadth of reading and experience as well as through the necessary process of focusing/balancing/comparing which occurs in forming and voicing an argument.

As regards labeling an opinion or source as 'extreme', as timber said elsewhere, that is going to be a function of one's own set of certainties, and the folks who hold with the labeler's views will all nod in shared agreement.

But discourse here, as in the community at large, must remain free to contain all opinions, even extreme opinions. Commonly what is perceived as extreme at a moment in time will later prove to be an appropriate view and we limit ourselves intellectually where we restrict voices heard.

More valuable, I think, would be to take specific issue with a key notion in the passage one finds extreme, and attempt to persuade the author or paster as to that notion's fallibility. If that fails, then seek the person out and cuckhold him.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 10:55 am
georgeob1 wrote:
hobitbob,

This is a site dedicated to dialogue and discussion - not blogging. Merely pasting long articles from unnamed publications does not contribute to the quality of the dialogue here. Each of the several long articles with which you have cluttered this and other threads is highly partisan. None makes any attempt to achieve balance or objective understanding, instead each is a one-sided interpretation of very selectively reported anecdotes and generally unsupported allegations.

Are you unable to speak for yourself? Isn't it a bit boorish of you to thrust these very long and one-sided screeds in what ought to be a dialogue among the contributors here?

George, why don't you point out the "inaccuracies" you find in the articles instead of engaing in ad hominem attacks?
As for the "un-named publications," perhaps if you clicked on the links you would discover where they are from. there is another tighty-righty here with the sme posting style and the same difficulty addressing issues, might you be related? Confused
0 Replies
 
angie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2003 11:08 am
hobit,

I have found your articles very informative, though I would like to see the name of (or a link to) the publication in which they appeared.
0 Replies
 
 

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