The Failed Presidency.

What I would think effective strategy for The Left would include abandoning its assault on traditional core values, such as national security, economic development, family, morality, and true, as opposed to "politically correct", diversity. The Left has, IMO, been hijacked by its activist, extremist factions, distancing itself from The Center, while inappropriately, ineffectively, and without substantiation accusing The Right of having done so. The Left should pursue compromise and proactive accomodation as opposed to negatavism and obstructionism. The Left displays not participation in but rejection of the deliberative political process. The Left opposes much, but proposes little of substance other than its own advancement for little more than the cause of its own advance, and does so to its own detriment.
All that is my opinion, of course, but it is as I see it. I've been wrong before ... but I doubt I am far off base here. So far, every issue The Left has rallied behind, opposition to the attack on Iraq, opposition to economic policy, allegations of fraud and other wrongdoing within The Current Administration, and assorted others, not only have come to naught but have diminished the credibility of The Left.

Your post makes perfect sense IF one assumes and agrees that the left has abandoned traditional core values.

IMO opinion our current crop of leaders display no values at all, excepting their recognition of the value of money.

What are traditional values? A country founded on the principal that all men are created equal whose very creators of this statement were slave owners?

The genocide of the Native population?

A country who decries the use of WMD's and insists no one has them without it's approval when said country is the only one who has ever dropped a nuclear bomb not once, but after seeing first hand what it did, again?

A country who spends 40 million on a presidential blow job but embraces and elects a governor who poses nude for (gasp) known homosexuals and perverted ones at that?


A country that decries abortion as murder but executes people like Orkin kills roaches? Is life worth more in utero?

A country spending more per citizen for education and healthcare in a foreign country than on it's own soil?

I believe that outside of the pursuit of money, this country's elected leaders and a great portion of its citizenry have NO core values, or certainly are schizophrenic in their application of them.

Having said all that, YES I am glad to be here and YES the USA is a great place to be and YES I feel lucky that by chance I was born here instead of Liberia or Afghanistan or China, or etc. etc. and yes I would serve my country in it's defense. Not in a mercenary outing though, especially when I don't get any of the profits.

It would seem that perhaps in a country that allows such diversity(which is one of it's great positives) there will never be an agreement on what core values are and perhaps we should adopt a "If it hurts no one do as thou wilt" attitude.....but no, that would offend a large group of voters who are the foremost experts on fund raising huh? :wink:

George

First let me say I fervently hope you are correct. However, from every thing I have read I have yet to see anyone who is in agreement with your "We." All that has been written seems to foretell of higher and higher deficits with no solutions in sight.


OP Ed from today's NY times
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/09/opinion/09JACK.html

first of all,

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<bi-PB>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



George wrote re Italgato: "Your last several posts (and others too) reveal an extraordinarily intense appetite or need for self-validation. "

Yes, that does seem to be the case. So why not ignore, rather than engage, that appetite / need ?


I learned on the "other" forum that, once it becomes about the poster, it's better to simply ignore.

thanks angie, that was so good for my chi.....

BPB, I agree with your thesis. Core values, indeed!

Now, don't get me wrong, here, BPB ... but I see your rebuttal as largely confirming my hypothesis. I contend The Left, as compared to The Electorate At Large, "Just doesn't get it". Perspective, of course, colors perception. Punditry aside, neither economic nor political trends (as evidenced by both judicial and electoral decisions of late) indicate that a majority of Americans view the world, or the nation, from a leftist perspective.

and I see yours as an America right or wrong love it or leave it if you're not with me you're against me type of answer timber....which to my mind is an infection in this country.......and of course I mean no offense to you......to me, my core values are what America claims to have been founded on.....so...we must agree to disagree.....I'll still buy you a beer any old time...or a cold shot of 1800....

Timber
What is a leftist perspective. I believe the electorate at large is generally middle of the road. Neither far right nor left.

Oooooh ... a nice, well-chilled shooter of 1800 sounds like a great idea ... with a beer chaser and no puppy toys (skip the citrus wedge and the salt for me ... I enjoy the booze more than the ceremony )

And really, I'm not a "Love-it-or-leave-it" proponent at all. I feel there is far more to it than any simple "Either-Or" dichotomy; that is precisely my point. Between the black and the white of it, to put it into computerspeak, are 254 shades of gray.

I'm with you on the fruit...give it to me like god made it.....only difference is I chase with another shot of 1800.....too many carbs in the beer.....

au, I agree the electorate at large is centrist. I perceive the more conspicuous proponents of the extreme left are those whose views are being presented to that center, while the mainstream moderate right more closely approximates the current overall public sentiment. The Right, IMO, is doing less to piss off The Center than is The Left.

timber, Your agreement that the electorate is centrist doesn't jibe with all your previous posts - IMHO. But, what the heck, I'll even treat ya to a shot of 1800.

Ever chase a tequila shot with a wedge of pineapple? Pretty intense.

1800 for everyone!!!!! Part of my deal at the holiday Inn is unlimited bar tab in addition to my compensation...it's the only night of the week that I really overdo....and I can polish off a whole bottle of 1800 in the course of four hours no problem......that's tonight stop to think about it....YEHAW!!!!!!!

Bi-Polar Bear,

I don't think Timber's point is so much that the Left has abandoned its traditional values as it is that the left is focused on those values in an unrealistic way and is ignoring important real challenges that we face, - all of which has captured the attention of an increasing segment of the public.

It is simply not true that the current crop of leaders has displayed no values except those relating to money.

Your point about the contradiction between the words "… all men are created equal…" in the Declaration of Independence and the fact that the new Union practiced slavery, while true, has little to do with the current administration. Perhaps we should blame the Democrat Party which was long the protector of slavery and credit the Republicans who, in nominating Lincoln and in making abolition a plank in their platform set in motion the Civil War and the abolition of slavery.

The genocide of the native population, as you term it, was largely done - at least in the east - before the Union was established. The principal actions that followed were done either under Andrew Jackson (a Democrat icon) or by Pioneers in the West. True our government has, at best, carelessly managed the Indian treaties and trust funds, but you cannot blame that particularly on this Administration. All have been involved.

With respect to WMDs and nuclear weapons in particular we simply insist that those nations that have signed the non-proliferation treaty continue to abide by it. There is no doubt about the contradiction of the goals of that treaty and the fact that we developed (and used) such weapons. However that genie can't be put back in its bottle, and I have not heard of a better alternative. This too is an issue that transcends the current political debate. Administrations of both parties have been involved in these policies and I am not aware of any significant difference between them on this matter.

The country spent $40 million investigating perjury and illegal misconduct in the workplace by a sitting president. Perhaps you recall the trials of the Army drill sergeants at Aberdeen Md. for rape and sexual abuse of female recruits under their supervision. Military law establishes that a difference in rank between perpetrator and victim in such a case constitutes "constructive force". The first sergeant so tried got 15 years hard time for 15 blowjobs - all of which were consensual according to the testimony of the victims. Should the President get a better deal for the same act involving one of his interns?

Abortion and capital punishment are different issues, notwithstanding your point about the emotional connection between them. Our country's laws are clear in their intent to protect the lives of living people. They (in some states) are equally clear about the state's right to take the life of one properly convicted of certain crimes. Abortion is right or wrong depending on your (or the law's) definition of living people. The merits (or lack thereof) of capital punishment is an entirely separate question.

In the USA education is a local matter. Federal spending on education constitutes a very small fraction of the total. While it may be true that Federal aid to some countries may, on a per capita basis, amount to more than is spent here (and I doubt that), it hardly means that total spending here is less. Similarly most of the healthcare expenses in this country are borne by individuals and their employers. The large Medicare and Medicaid programs make the Federal impact here relatively larger than it is with education, but it still is a small part of the total cost. The only large foreign healthcare program we have is the new AIDs program for Africa. Large as it is it is dwarfed by Federal expenditures for Medicare alone. These issues are a common part of the Democrat rhetoric, but they are palpably false. I believe many people are aware of that and that is part of Timber's basic point.

Finally you cite the Administrations concern about money. Money for whom? Certainly it has consistently been concerned about the health of the productive aspects of our economy, but what is wrong with that?

It is simply not true that the current crop of leaders has displayed no values except those relating to money.

Examples?

Your point about the contradiction between the words "… all men are created equal…" in the Declaration of Independence and the fact that the new Union practiced slavery, while true, has little to do with the current administration. Perhaps we should blame the Democrat Party which was long the protector of slavery and credit the Republicans who, in nominating Lincoln and in making abolition a plank in their platform set in motion the Civil War and the abolition of slavery.

If it is true and I should not bandy it about....then the current administration should cease bandying about how our country was founded on these principals and we are returning to them courtesy of the current administration when trying to sell their soap.....if I can't use it then they shouldn't....


The genocide of the native population, as you term it, was largely done - at least in the east - before the Union was established. The principal actions that followed were done either under Andrew Jackson (a Democrat icon) or by Pioneers in the West. True our government has, at best, carelessly managed the Indian treaties and trust funds, but you cannot blame that particularly on this Administration. All have been involved.

What is your term for it if not genocide?
If the government at best has screwed up Indian treaties and trust funds and if our administration holds so dear the core American values it eshews it is not the LEAST it could do to rectify this horror? I don't see any sign of that.

I can't do any more gotta go to work.

I believe that neither the extreme left or extreme right "get it". I see a torrid number of extreme righties. The are visible, abrasive and boorish!!!! Don't think there are so many extreme lefties.

Thank you for that observation, Bill. In my opinion, you are right on the mark with it.

And only on A2K or the PETA boards would an assessment like that fly.