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The Failed Presidency.

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 11:36 am
If you're asking me, au, I'd say militarily the operation was, and continues to be, a resounding success. From a marketing standpoint, however, its right up there with the Edsel. I won't labor the point, but I'm on record here with plenty of criticism of The Current Administration's handling of bringing about a good and necessary thing in extraordinarily clumsy manner. It could and should have been presented, and sold, in much different terms than it was. I really don't see a helluva lot of improvement going on in that regard. That infuriates me.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 11:54 am
Timber

The fact that we can beat the Hell out of almost anyone we want is not a reasonable response to what Au asked.

I will concede that we can annihilate damn near any country on this planet -- and probably could stave off a federation comprised of all the other nations fighting as one.

But the invasion of Iraq -- which was part of Au's question -- has created a precedent that will haunt future generations as much as it will haunt the present one during the next few years.

We staged a preemptive strike against another country -- and damn near every reason we initially gave for the necessity of the strike has been shown to probably be false.

The only thing that stands up is "We did not like Saddam Hussein" -- which is a horrible reason for going to war as we did.

Has that truly escaped you?
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 12:06 pm
Frank I may be misinterpreting but I believe that timbers response was not much different from yours.

Giant game is about to kick off. It's time to watch a win. I hope.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 12:08 pm
That was it, Timber! Diapers!
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 12:34 pm
timber, that was a fine supply of evidence tenuously supporting a position that environmentalists are to blame for California's wildfires.

Of course, not everyone sees it the same way, including several of the journalists you cite.

This mischaracterization of environmentalists as whackos is a common demonization of anyone and anything opposing The Right, as they must have some demon to slay in every confrontation. It's a shame that the environmentalists, not to mention prevailing opinion and common sense, don't cooperate.

Now back to the fires of man's making:

Quote:
Since the tragedy of 9-11 which understandably shook and outraged everyone in this country, we have increasingly embraced at the highest official level what I think fairly can be called a paranoiac view of the world. Summarized in a phrase repeatedly used at the highest level, "he who is not with us is against us."

This phrase in a way is part of what might be considered to be the central defining focus that our policy-makers embrace in determining the American position in the world and is summed up by the words "war on terrorism." War on terrorism defines the central preoccupation of the United States in the world today, and it does reflect in my view a rather narrow and extremist vision of foreign policy of the world's first superpower ...

... that skewed view of the world is intensified by a fear that periodically verges on panic that is in itself blind. By this I mean the absence of a clearly, sharply defined perception of what is transpiring abroad regarding particularly such critically important security issues as the existence or the spread or the availability or the readiness in alien hands of weapons of mass destruction.

I think that calls for serious debate in America about the role of America in the world, and I do not believe that that serious debate is satisfied simply by a very abstract, vague and quasi-theological definition of the war on terrorism as the central preoccupation of the United States in today's world. That definition of the challenge in my view simply narrows down and over-simplifies a complex and varied set of challenges that needs to be addressed on a broad front.

It deals with abstractions. It theologizes the challenge. It doesn't point directly at the problem. It talks about a broad phenomenon, terrorism, as the enemy overlooking the fact that terrorism is a technique for killing people. That doesn't tell us who the enemy is. It's as if we said that World War II was not against the Nazis but against blitzkrieg. We need to ask who is the enemy, and the enemies are terrorists.

But not in an abstract, theologically-defined fashion, people, to quote again our highest spokesmen, "people who hate things, whereas we love things" - literally. Not to mention the fact that of course terrorists hate freedom. I think they do hate. But believe me, I don't think they sit there abstractly hating freedom.


The remarks of Zbigniew Brzezinski. I added the emphasis.

He doesn't come out and say it, but I see traces of a notion I've had for some time:

The terrorist threat isn't, and never was, as great as the administration has led to us to believe.

And our knee-jerk response to attack someone, anyone we could even slightly hold responsible has led us to our folly in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 12:39 pm
Frank, I perceive your latest response to me to be influenced more by your own preconceptions than by anything I've written.

But then, that's just my perception ... my belief, just as your comment is reflective of your beliefs :wink:
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 01:01 pm
PDiddie, environmentalists are not soley to blame, they are among those worthy of blame, including, as I've mentioned a time or two, The Current Administration and its predecessors. Environmental disasters, as is the way of disasters in general, require lots of stuff to go wrong or be done wrong in long and winding chains of coincident and self-reinforcing culpability, misunderstanding, and just plain blundering. Who is at fault is not part of the issue; there's plenty of fault to go around several times. The issue is what must be done to remedy those widely attributable screw-ups. Partisan politics comes into play all over the list of faults and problems. It is high time emotion and agenda be set aside in the interest of resolving the issue as opposed to arguing about it.

And forgive me if I don't leap to revise my position on the basis of the narrow, extremist, skewed, paranoiac, oversimplified (in his own words) rantings of the architect of Johnson's and Carter's foreign policy.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 01:08 pm
Note a habit of the Right: to make a god-awful mess and then intone: "It is high time emotion and agenda be set aside in the interest of resolving the issue as opposed to arguing about it."

Just remember, PDiddie, they have a "policy," while we have an "agenda."
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 02:22 pm
Tart, your partisan politics prevent you from recognizing that I exempted no one from blame, my side or yours, but rather decried the role of partisan politics in creating and maintaining the mess. Those not choosing to be part of the solution remain part of the problem regardless of affilliation.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 02:46 pm
Quote:
(T)his Administration is seeking to conduct its work in secret even as it demands broad unfettered access to personal information about American citizens. Under the rubric of protecting national security, they have obtained new powers to gather information from citizens and to keep it secret. Yet at the same time they themselves refuse to disclose information that is highly relevant to the war against terrorism.

They are even arrogantly refusing to provide information about 9/11 that is in their possession to the 9/11 Commission - the lawful investigative body charged with examining not only the performance of the Bush Administration, but also the actions of the prior Administration in which I served. The whole point is to learn all we can about preventing future terrorist attacks.

Two days ago, the Commission was forced to issue a subpoena to the Pentagon, which has - disgracefully - put Secretary Rumsfeld's desire to avoid embarrassment ahead of the nation's need to learn how we can best avoid future terrorist attacks. The Commission also served notice that it will issue a subpoena to the White House if the President continues to withhold information essential to the investigation.

And the White House is also refusing to respond to repeated bipartisan Congressional requests for information about 9/11 - even though the Congress is simply exercising its Constitutional oversight authority. In the words of Senator McCain, "Excessive administration secrecy on issues related to the September 11 attacks feeds conspiracy theories and reduces the public's confidence in government."

In a revealing move, just three days ago, the White House asked the Republican leadership of the Senate to shut down the Intelligence Committee's investigation of 9/11 based on a trivial political dispute. Apparently the President is anxious to keep the Congress from seeing what are said to have been clear, strong and explicit warnings directly to him a few weeks before 9/11 that terrorists were planning to hijack commercial airliners and use them to attack us.

Astonishingly, the Republican Senate leadership quickly complied with the President's request. Such obedience and complicity in what looks like a cover-up from the majority party in a separate and supposedly co-equal branch of government makes it seem like a very long time ago when a Republican Attorney General and his deputy resigned rather than comply with an order to fire the special prosecutor investigating Richard Nixon.


More of Al Gore's speech can be found here.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 03:22 pm
PDiddie - Did you see the Washington Post article about the White House no longer accepting questions from Democratic members of Congress?
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 04:06 pm
Yes, Dana Milbank's story:

Quote:
The Bush White House, irritated by pesky questions from congressional Democrats about how the administration is using taxpayer money, has developed an efficient solution: It will not entertain any more questions directly from opposition lawmakers.

The decision -- one that Democrats and scholars said is highly unusual -- was announced in an e-mail sent this week to the staff of the House and Senate Appropriations Committees. House committee Democrats had just asked for information about how much the White House spent making and installing the "Mission Accomplished" banner for President Bush's May 1 speech aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln.


Wa Po, via Boston Globe

These guys are gonna ruin it for themselves.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 04:17 pm
"These guys are gonna ruin it for themselves."

I've noticed that (and the reaction here in A2K!!)

Speaking of ruin, hope I'm not the only one who's listening to Zell Miller being interviewed on NPR this evening.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 05:15 pm
Quote:
... director of the White House Office of Administration, Timothy A. Campen, sent an e-mail titled "congressional questions" to majority and minority staff on the House and Senate Appropriations panels. Expressing "the need to add a bit of structure to the Q&A process," he wrote: "Given the increase in the number and types of requests we are beginning to receive . . . and in deference to the various committee chairmen and our desire to better coordinate these requests, I am asking that all requests for information and materials be coordinated through the committee chairmen and be put in writing from the committee."

I can see how a request that order and due process be maintained would be seen by The Democrats as a threat to their way of doing things. However, Campen's request does not say "Shut up", it says "Help us to hear you. Please stop the cacaphony and present your questions in orderly manner".

I can also understand the Democrat's reported fear that Republican Committee Chairpersons might seek to inhibit Democrat inquiries. It is common, though neither necessarilly nor even frequently correct, to assume one's opponent will emulate one's own perfidies
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 06:10 pm
My my that sounds so reasonable doesn't it.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 06:55 pm
Tartarin wrote:
My my that sounds so reasonable doesn't it.


Only to the reasonable. One cannot reason with the unreasonable.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2003 05:54 am
timberlandko wrote:
Tartarin wrote:
My my that sounds so reasonable doesn't it.


Only to the reasonable. One cannot reason with the unreasonable.



I'm sure you don't mean this the way comment the way I've read it, Timber...but...

AMEN!

:wink:
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2003 05:57 am
au1929 wrote:
Frank I may be misinterpreting but I believe that timbers response was not much different from yours.

Giant game is about to kick off. It's time to watch a win. I hope.



1) I think you misinterpreted what I said -- because I see my statement as quite different from Timber's.

2) I also watched our beloved Giants embarrass themselves yesterday. I really don't know why a team with such potential does what they do?????
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2003 07:10 am
Frank
The coach[s] have got to go. Yesterday was a washout they just lost. It wasn't the usual snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
At least the Jets won.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2003 11:17 am
The Jets won against a team that is going downhill very fast. Wink
0 Replies
 
 

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