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Cops Suspect Parents In Missing British Girl Case

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 06:24 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
msolga wrote:
At the moment it appears that the Portuguese police do not to have a proper case against them, but are still able to declare them "suspects".


As a few media (but most outside the UK) mentioned, the term "suspect" in Portuguese law (as well as other countries outside the "Westminster law system") just means ..... more rights for the the interviewed (and the police).


Yes, I know that, Walter. I mentioned in an earlier post that there was a previous "suspect". And who knows, there could possibly be more.
But would you agree that being declared "suspects" has rather stigmatized the McCanns, regardless?
It seems rather strange then, that those "suspects" (being interviewed) are not able to make public statements themselves.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 06:33 am
It might have stigmatized them, especially in the UK and UK press's opinion.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 06:33 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
you make the (reasonable but erroneous) assumption that the police are interested in the truth.


Okay. So let'ss wait what will happen when they hand their case file on the disappearance to the public prosecutor's office.


My guess is they will somehow manage to indicate that although there is strong evidence against them its not quite strong enough to convict. So "on compassionate grounds" considering what they have been through, they wont call them back for further interview or charge them... because the last thing they want is the McCanns back in Portugal. They want them in England "somewhat guilty perhaps of something" and the reputation of Portugual as an ideal holiday destination restored.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 06:36 am
It seems, you've a better knowledge of the case and especially the Portguese juridical and police system then I have.

Your expertise will be correct then.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 06:59 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
Naming them as formal suspects and getting them out of Portugal suits the police fine. They can sit back, give up looking for Madeleine, point the finger at the McCanns who cannot speak out, and work with the local tourist board in telling the world what a wonderful place is Praia da Luz.


Well, that's one opinion.
I accept its only an opinion. But Madeleine's disappearance could only be as a result of 3 things

1 either she wandered off by herself
2 or she was abducted by a third party
3 or the parents were somehow involved and are lying.

I dont think she wandered off alone. I dont think the McCanns are lying. I most definitely think that an abduction would be very damaging for the tourist industry in Portugal.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 07:08 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
It seems, you've a better knowledge of the case and especially the Portguese juridical and police system then I have.

Your expertise will be correct then.
No I only know what you know. And probably you know more about Portguese law and police than me :wink:

I'm just putting two and two together from what we know. If we had all the facts it would be simple.

Sadly I dont think we will ever know what happened to Madeleine McCann.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 08:11 am
It's quite interesting, IMHO, that today the Forensic Science Service (Birmingham) accused the critics of "a lack of knowledge about the case".

(But perhaps they are just a subdivision of the Praia da Luz tourist office.)
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 08:37 am
msolga wrote:
I guess I treat the media speculation in these sorts of cases with a healthy dose of scepticism following the Azaria Chamberlain fiasco in Australia, some years ago. There was so much prejudice, so much innuendo in the Oz community - everyone seemed to have a theory on how the baby died & Lindy Chamberlain's part in it, from witchcraft, strange religious practices, to "baby sacrifices", whatever .... and they were all proved completely wrong. Some of the things being said about the McCanns, particularly the mother, are similar to what was being said about Lindy Chamberlain at the time: Why is she so calm? Why is she not appearing more distressed at the loss of her baby? How come she (Lindy Chamberlain) was wearing a different dress to court each day & taking care with her appearance? Surely she was not behaving in the correct way for someone in her situation? All of this lead a lot of folk to assume that she must be guilty. It took ages & months in jail before she was eventually cleared of the wrongful charge. This is the sort of treatment that can ruin peoples' lives. Surely the McCanns have a right to be considered innocent until/if some water-tight evidence to the contrary is presented through the legal process? At the moment it appears that the Portuguese police do not to have a proper case against them, but are still able to declare them "suspects".



On ya Msolga.


I couldn't agree more about the nastiness of rushing to judgment.


I worked in the criminal justice system during the Chamberlain drama, and I have never seen normally reasonable people gripped by such a dark mass hysteria...it was kind of like a witch craze.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 09:00 am
I just dont believe the McCanns are lying. I dont believe they murdered or deliberately harmed their child in any way. And even if Madeleine had died as a result of some bizarre accident I think they would have told the truth about what happened. The police are trying to suggest that two doctors killed their child, cleaned up the room, hid the body and then went out to dinner with friends. Later when the eyes of the world were upon them they retrieved the body and moved it to a permanent disposal site in their rental car. To support this theory they have a partial DNA match and evidence from a dog which wagged its tail.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 09:09 am
I haven't read anything like what you said above, Steve.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 09:27 am
The basis of the police case is that Madeliene died in the bedroom. As there was no body when the alarm was raised at 10pm, someone must have hidden it. The dna sample was found in the car. But the McCanns only hired it several weeks after Madeliene's disappearance. The specially trained "cadaver" dog gave a positive response (whatever that is) to the smell of the room, and bizarrely to Kate McCann's bible.

I will be absolutely amazed if this ever comes to court.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 09:33 am
The case is being turned over to prosecutors now.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 09:35 am
Quote:
Case file 'to go to prosecutor'
(The Press Association, September 10, 2007)

Papers outlining the case against the parents of missing Madeleine McCann are expected to be passed to the public prosecutor, Portuguese police said.

The Portimao-based prosecutor, Jose Cunha de Magalhaes e Meneses, will then decide whether to bring charges against Kate and Gerry McCann.
Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa, spokesman for the Portuguese police inquiry, said: "At the moment the inquiry is being prepared to be handed to the prosecutor in charge of the case. He will analyse it and after this he will make his decision."

Asked when the papers would be handed over, he said: "Probably during today."

Portuguese newspapers reported that police were preparing fresh searches in Praia da Luz. These will take place to the south of the Ocean Club resort where Madeleine went missing, according to Correio da Manha.

Mr Sousa refused to confirm or deny the reports, but said they did not come from the Policia Judiciaria.

It was also reported that "biological fluids" with an 80% match of Madeleine's DNA were found underneath the upholstery in the boot of the McCanns' rented Renault Scenic.

The sample was too badly deteriorated to make a 100% match possible, according to the Diario de Noticias newspaper.

Meanwhile, police and social services representatives in the home county of missing Madeleine McCann were holding talks about Madeleine's case.

It is understood the Leicestershire authorities were meeting to discuss how they should now respond to the Rothley youngster's disappearance and the naming of her parents, Kate and Gerry, as formal suspects.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 09:36 am
Steve 41oo wrote:

I will be absolutely amazed if this ever comes to court.


The media, especially the tabloids and the paparazzis, will like that.


At Downing Street today, asked if the Prime Minister had any comment to make on the Madeleine McCann case, the PMS said that it was an ongoing investigation and the Foreign Secretary had made clear that in relation to the support the McCann's needed in Portugal, the usual Consulate access would be provided. The PMS added it would be inappropriate to comment further.


Another thought: in Britain, if an individual is named as a suspect overseas and this is reported to police, their local social services department has a duty to consider whether action needs to be taken to ensure the children's welfare.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 09:50 am
Police and representatives of social services in Leicestershire have held talks to discuss the case, PA reports.

And from The Guardian: McCann radio debate slammed
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 11:52 am
Quote:
Madeleine McCann: the key questions
(David Brown, Times Online, September 10, 2007)

What happened in the four hours before Madeleine was reported missing?
Kate and Gerry McCann claim that while they dined at a restaurant with friends regular checks were made on Madeleine and their two-year-old twins, Sean and Amelie, at their nearby holiday apartment. Mr McCann told police he saw his daughter asleep at about 9pm. A friend, Matthew Oldfield, entered the apartment at about 9.30pm but did not look in the bedroom Madeleine and the twins were sharing.
It is not known if anyone apart from Mr and Mrs McCann saw Madeleine alive between 6pm and 10pm, when she was reported missing by her mother. The timing is crucial but would be only circumstantial evidence in any prosecution. Although a small child could be killed quickly it would take time to hide a body so that it was not discovered in the biggest search in Portuguese history.

Why did Kate McCann cry out "They've taken her?" when she discovered Madeleine missing?
Portuguese police are reported to find it suspicious that Mrs McCann immediately believed that more than one person had taken her daughter. This could suggest that she knew who had taken Madeleine, perhaps people who thought they were helping Mrs McCann by removing her daughter's body.
Alternatively, it could be an off-the-cuff remark by an hysterical mother or perhaps was misheard or misunderstood in the confusion of the night.

What were the movements of the McCann's friends on the night Madeleine disappeared?
The McCann family had stayed at the Ocean Club resort with three other British couples and their five children, and a single woman. Russell O'Brien, a doctor from Exeter, left the restaurant for half an hour to look after his own daughter, returning shortly before Madeleine was reported missing.
His wife, Jane Tanner, was the only witness to report a man carrying away child from the McCann's apartments. There is confusion about when members of the party arrived at the tapas restaurant and left to check on their own sleeping children.

How much alcohol did the McCanns and their friends drink on the evening Madeleine disappeared?
Kate and Gerry McCann and their friends are reported to have told detectives they shared four bottles of wine, with another two barely touched before Madeleine was discovered missing.
However, it is claimed detectives have recovered a bill showing they downed eight bottles of red wine and six white during the afternoon and evening.

Why was Madeleine's bedroom window and shutter open?
Kate and Gerry McCann told police that the window shutter in Madeleine's bedroom, which could not been seen from the restaurant, had been forced open.
Police tests showed the heavy metal shutter had not been forced up from the outside, so must have been pulled open from inside the room.
Assuming that the abductor entered through the apartment's unlocked patio windows, why would he or she not leave by the same way or the use the front door?
Or was the window opened to make it appear as if an intruder had used it to enter the bedroom?

Why did Madeleine's sister and brother sleep through her "abduction"?
Sean and Amelie were heavy sleepers who were not disturbed by their sister's abduction, claim their parents. However, they also slept through their mother's hysterical response to Madeleine's disappearance and the presence of dozens of people who joined the search before being carried out by a female police officer. Kate and Gerry McCann have strenuously denied sedating their daughter.

Why were the McCanns allowed to leave Portugal if they are suspects?
The Portuguese authorities allowed the McCanns to return to the UK after they agreed to reside only at their home in Rothley and to return for further questioning if necessary.
Portugese law states that after someone is declared a suspect, police have eight months to conclude the investigation into that individual. If they require further time officers can apply to the courts for a four-month extension.
If the McCanns refused to comply with a request to return to the Algarve for interview, Portuguese police could issue a European Arrest Warrant under which extradition can be carried out within six weeks.

Why has it taken so long to find the evidence that could implicate Kate and Gerry McCann?
The material was only collected at the end of July and early August in a review of the investigation carried out by Portuguese detectives with the help of British police and two sniffer dogs. Many of the samples are very small, containing just a few cells, while others are of poor quality because of damage by cleaning or simply the passing of time.
A full report of the findings will not be ready for weeks, but many results have already been passed to the Portuguese authorities.

What evidence were police looking for?
Detectives are searching for any evidence that proves Madeleine is dead or contradicts the accounts of Mr and Mrs McCann and other witnesses.

What is the most important new evidence?
It appears the Forensic Science Service believes it has discovered compelling new evidence, possibly from more than one source. Portuguese detectives told Mrs McCann repeatedly that they found traces of Madeleine's blood in a Renault Scenic hired three weeks after she disappeared, suggesting that the missing girl's parents used the vehicle to carry her body. It is possible to tell if the blood came from a living person or from a corpse, and even the time of death. However, some reports suggest that the quality of the blood sample was too poor to confirm the origin while others have denied any blood was found in the vehicle and claim it was other "bodily fluids". Unless a body had been placed in a freezer, it would have badly decomposed during the warm weather; leaving a mass of traces invisible to the human eye.

Does any trace of Madeleine in the hire car prove she was killed?
No. Mr and Mrs McCann hired the car to buy new clothes in the town of Portimão a day before they flew to Rome to see Pope Benedict XVI. They then used it regularly for family outings and to collect friends and relatives from Faro airport. They continued using the car until shortly before flying home yesterday. Kate and Gerry and their two-year-old twins would have often carried in the car items used by Madeleine. These items could easily certainly carry Madeleine's hair and minute traces of skin, dried blood, saliva and vomit. The same could be said of the holiday apartments used by the McCanns and their friends in the Ocean Club resort. However, if the blood came from Madeleine's corpse the only other highly unlikely explanation would be that a previous hirer had moved the body.
One report suggested yesterday that Madeleine's DNA had been found on the floor of the McCanns holiday apartment, but because of degredation it was based on an incomplete picture, with only 15 of the 20 genetic markers usually used for such analysis.

What about the discoveries of the "cadaver" sniffer dog?
Mr and Mrs McCann were shown a police video of a sniffer dog used to find corpses "going crazy" when it approached the hire car. Reports also claim that is discovered the scent on the vehicle's key fob. Mrs McCann is reported to have explained that in her work as locum GP she came into contact with six corpses in the weeks leading up to Algarve holiday.
This seems a high number for a locum GP working just a couple of days a week but would be easy to check against surgery records.
The crucial difficulty with the sniffer dog "evidence" is that it cannot distinguish between corpses. This type of dog is trained to find bodies, not identify where dead bodies have been. Crucially, they can become excited by other scents.

Any evidence of Madeleine's death on Cuddle Cat?
The cadaver dog is alleged to have become excited when shown Madeleine's favourite soft pink toy, called Cuddle Cat. The cat had become poignant symbol of a mother's loss as Kate McCann carried it with her at all time from the night of Madeleine's disappearance.
She washed it four days after the police tests, claiming it had become dirty. The toy was potentially crucial evidence and should have been seized by police very early in the investigation.

What evidence can be found in Mrs McCann's Bible?Why are the McCanns suspects in their daughter's killing?
Portuguese police refuse to say why the couple have been made official suspects. Under Portuguese law police can not question someone as if they had committed a crime unless they are a "suspect". It could simply be that police wanted to ask the couple about the evidence they had collected, and that the seriousness of the process has been misunderstood and exaggerated by cultural and language differences. The McCanns believed that they were about to be charged with Madeleine's death, but it does not appear police disclosed any crucial evidence to them.
All parties have strenuously denied any wrongdoing.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 03:33 pm
Has anyone given any reason why they think the McCann's killed their daughter?

Why only her?

So, they say they checked on her at 9:00 pm (roughly)... someone at the table said they saw a man carrying a child from the McCann's apartment - did she give the alarm at the table? It must have been after 9:00 p.m. if they checked on her at 9:00. If so, why were the police not called until 10:00 pm or later? If she didn't give the alarm, why not?

Where were the parents supposed to have stored Mad's body for 3 weeks if her DNA in the car is evidence that she was transported in it?

Again, why would they have killed their four year old and not the other two?

Who is this Matthew Oldfield and why did he enter the apartment and what did he do/where did he go after exiting it?

It IS suspicious about the window shutter and the wine consumption discrepancies...
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 04:09 pm
Mame,

There is a suspicion that the girl died from some type of negligence (possibly an overdose of medication).

There are more questions than answers at this point. (When I posted the Times article, I hadn't noticed that it was so lengthy. I hope that doesn't bother anyone.)
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 04:48 pm
I liked the article, but there are a lot of unanswered questions, for sure.

Her parents are doctors.

How would they not know how much medication to give their child?

Why would they give it to her, anyway? Wouldn't she have eventually gone to sleep?

If they did, and she died, how did she get to wherever she is if everyone was at the table and they found her missing at 10:00? At no time have I read that either of the parents left the table. And if they DID leave the table, they didn't have time to hide her because the police were called and where would they have put her?

And why do they suspect she was medicated?

And if she were, why are they claiming blood was in the trunk of the rental car?
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 02:12 am
Portuguese policeman in charge of McCann investigation beats up suspects

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2950302.ece
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