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SHOULD SEN. LARRY CRAIG RESIGN?

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Sep, 2007 04:20 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Advocate wrote:


Quote:
Dave would love it in the world of McCarthy and Pinochet,

Well, I lived thru the Third World War with them and the commies.
Thanx, in part, to their most admirable efforts, we won.


Quote:
in which someone who is merely suspected of having differing political views

i.e., communist traitors, like the Rosenbergs


Quote:
would forthwith be tossed from a plane.

Yeah, McCarthy and Pinochet both did good jobs on the commies.
Thay earned our love, reverence and gratitude.





Quote:

Dave, anyone who would be proud of having been a spy for HUAC is beneath contempt.

I know that the nazis and commies agreed with u.
Enjoy their company, Advocate.


You need to understand OmSig that in the world where deeds are publicly judged and recounted by, for the most part, by leftists, McCarthy and Pinochet have both been indelibly branded as at least villains, and more probably monsters.

I don't admire either of these gentlemen. On the contrary, I find both of them deplorable, but it is ironic that leftists/liberals/progressives who admonish one and all to "walk a mile in another man's moccasins" before judging a man, have no problem assigning both men, with absolute certainty, to the darkest shadows of history.

Can the same be said for their assessment of Lenin, Stalin, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, Che, Mugabe, or Mao (to name but a few)?

Throw out Mao's history for discussion and it is unlikely that you will find too many people praising him up the ying-yang and denying his sins, but you will find a whole host of folks who insist that it is important to view his actions within "context."

What will be the reaction of these same people to McCarthy, Pinochet, The Shah, and Samoza (to name but a few)? Absolute evil! Only an equally evil person or some senile fool would suggest that there might have been another side to their actions.

Leftists/Liberals/Progressives/Democrats chortle with glee when they believe the hypocrisy of Republicans is revealed, but they are blind to the revelation of their own.

There have been woefully few people who have dedicated themselves to the greater good of their people, and been willing to sacrifice all they have to advance such a cause. None, absolutely none, of the figures cited in this post rise to such a level of honor.

Communism - either in the theoretical or applied sense - is not synonymous with Evil. All who oppose and have opposed Communism are not forgiven "lesser" sins because they were committed in the struggle against Evil. Pinochet, for example, is a murderous tyrant. That he murdered communists and those who may or may not have been affiliated with them is not excusable.

McCarthy, unlike Pinochet, was not responsible for the murder or torture of any of his targets, and yet he probably tops the Monster list of most American leftists/Liberals/Progressives.

Somewhere in the Cosmos there is an Ultimate Judge and he is laughing hysterically at the insistence of leftists/Liberals/Progressives to bring Senator McCarthy to the front of the line for divine retribution.

Beautifully rendered, and with innermost TRUTH, Find Abuzz,
tho I DO hold both Joe McCarthy and Pinochet in high reverence and affection
David
0 Replies
 
happycat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Sep, 2007 05:34 am
Back on topic.....


So, Craig is resigning.
I'm hearing Queen in my mind....

Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
And another one gone, and another one gone


Now that Craig is gone, all the others in the closet have more wiggle room.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Sep, 2007 01:26 pm
kuvasz wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
umm boy, you betcha. but i guess the promise of paradise with a virgin with 72 egos was just too tempting. :wink:

http://www.anncoulter.com/photos/grave_bg.jpg


Good God, man were you raised by wolves? That is one ugly woman. Admitting that's the type of virgin who awaits us in your idea of Heaven would turn anyone into an atheist faster than you can say Frank Apisa.


great googleymoogley kuv... do you not recognize both the outer and inner beauty of ann coulter ?

nay sir. i say true to you that her gentle nature, sensual visage and dulcette tone could have been created only by god.

let us pray unto him and praise his messenger;

http://www.americanprogress.org/kf/murdoch.jpg

http://www.foxnews.com/images/1327/10_21_hannity_sean_350.jpg
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Sep, 2007 01:29 pm
happycat wrote:
Back on topic.....


So, Craig is resigning.
I'm hearing Queen in my mind....

Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
And another one gone, and another one gone


.....


not "(you make me feel like) a natural woman" ?
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Sep, 2007 01:52 pm
I had to feel sorry for the governor of Idaho who was forced to shake Craig's hand at a public news conference. Who would want to touch that guy.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Sep, 2007 04:06 pm
Advocate wrote:
I had to feel sorry for the governor of Idaho who was forced to shake Craig's hand at a public news conference. Who would want to touch that guy.

You wouldn't shake his hand? Because of his politics or his looking for consensual liaisons in all the wrong places? His politics are pretty right wing, but that's true of millions of Americans and probably the governor.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Sep, 2007 10:16 pm
Rush had a right on summary opinion today. If Craig was a Democrat, Democrats would be bragging about him and defending him completely.

According to Democrats, what he did was probably to be complimented, but its the hypocrisy they attack. This allows Democrats to do anything they want, without holding themselves to any standards whatsoever. Agreed with Rush, this is exactly my assessment of it before I heard his.

Another point is that any Republican problem is characterized as a Republican Party problem, not an individual problem. Craig is just a typical Republican hypocrit, but William Jefferson is just having a few problems as an individual, but he is still a good Democrat, very socially moral (even if he is an outright criminal on a personal basis), so let him stay where he's at if he weathers the personal problems. Thats the spin put out by the Democrats. Very clever, and the main stream press reinforces the same spin.

I have to pinch myself to check and see if I am not dreaming about some of these events they are so bazaar and whacked out. Hillary could probably rob a bank in broad daylight and the press would say she just had a temporary lapse of judgement, so that makes her more human and more like us, and her poll numbers would go up. Thats actually similar to the spin placed on her husband, Bill.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 12:45 am
Only mental cases think Rush Limbaugh ever gets it right on anything.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 12:47 am
okie wrote:

Another point is that any Republican problem is characterized as a Republican Party problem, not an individual problem. Craig is just a typical Republican hypocrit, but William Jefferson is just having a few problems as an individual, but he is still a good Democrat, very socially moral (even if he is an outright criminal on a personal basis), so let him stay where he's at if he weathers the personal problems. Thats the spin put out by the Democrats. Very clever, and the main stream press reinforces the same spin.

I have to pinch myself to check and see if I am not dreaming about some of these events they are so bazaar [sic]and whacked out. .


No, you are not dreaming, you are delusional, the events that you describe are not reality. Really, you should seek professional help.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 03:05 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
This is all moot as Craig pled guilty.

Why does that make it moot? Can't he change his plea?

Roxxxanne wrote:
It is obvious what his intentions were.

How is it obvious? It isn't obvious from the police officer's say-so. It isn't obvious from the tape. It isn't obvious from Craig's guilty plea, as Debra convincingly argued. Do you have sources of information that we don't have?

parados wrote:
Lest we forget, Craig exited the stall without flushing the toilet.

It seems he also exited without wiping. So what was he doing there?

... says the police officer, whose testimony may or may not be truthful. Assuming that it is, maybe Craig was soliciting sex without urinating or defecating. Maybe he was freaked out by the paper sheet saying "POLICE" being shoved into his stall. The point is, we don't know.


No, he can't change his plea, to the best of my knowledge.

Listen, the fact that it would have been embarassing or politically difficult for him to plead Not Guilty is completely immaterial. If he didn't feel that he was guilty of what he was charged with, then he should have plead that way. He didn't, and therefore the law is quite clear: he did do the things he was accused of. He affirmed in a court of law that he did.

I'm not sure where the confusion rises from here. We have a process for judging if an arrest is good, or if an operation is actually catching the right person - it's called Court. He plead guilty in court. End of story.

Cycloptichorn


It is common for people to plead guilty to crimes they didn't commit. Doing so is the most expeditious and least costly method of making an unpleasant thing go away. Craig agreed to plead guilty to "disorderly conduct" in order to make the unpleasantness go away. The security officer influenced Craig by telling him that he would just pay a fine and that he wouldn't call the media.

A disorderly conduct offense is loosely defined as engaging in "offensive" conduct tending reasonably to arouse alarm, anger, or resentment in others. The law is unconstitutionally vague "as applied" to the shoe tapping incident. Lots of people bounce, shake, tap, and wiggle their feet in public--and they don't expect to be arrested.

Craig's guilty plea is not the end of the story. Craig may retain a lawyer and motion the court to withdraw his guilty plea. Rule 15.05, MN Rules of Crim. Procedure, permits a defendant to withdraw a guilty plea after sentencing when necessary to correct a manifest injustice. Meritorious arguments can be made in Craig's case.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 04:49 am
Craig did hire Billy Martin to fight for him. A voice message from Craig to Martin has surfaced which Craig phoned to the wrong number(Craig's really smart Laughing). Basically the game plan is for Martin to make some statements on camera to begin reshaping the media on Craig.

Arlen Specter was also in the news last night in Craig's defense...so he isn't gone yet.
0 Replies
 
happycat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 05:15 am
Craig Reconsidering Decision to Resign
Sep 5, 2007 3:43 AM
By JOHN MILLER, AP

U.S. Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, announces his resignation from the senate at the old Boise Depot train station overlooking downtown Boise, Idaho, Saturday, Sept. 1, 2007. BOISE, Idaho (Map, News) - Sen. Larry Craig says he may still fight for his Senate seat, a spokesman says - if the lawmaker can clear his name with the Senate Ethics Committee and a Minnesota court where he pleaded guilty after his arrest in an airport men's room sex sting.

Since announcing Saturday he intended to resign on Sept. 30, the Republican lawmaker who has represented Idaho for 27 years has hired a prominent lawyer to investigate the possibility of reversing his guilty plea.

"It's not such a foregone conclusion anymore that the only thing he could do was resign," Sidney Smith, Craig's spokesman in Idaho's capital, told The Associated Press on Tuesday.

"We're still preparing as if Senator Craig will resign Sept. 30, but the outcome of the legal case in Minnesota and the ethics investigation will have an impact on whether we're able to stay in the fight - and stay in the Senate," Smith said......
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 07:26 am
Senator Larry Craig (R-eacharound)
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 08:19 am
Debra Law wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
This is all moot as Craig pled guilty.

Why does that make it moot? Can't he change his plea?

Roxxxanne wrote:
It is obvious what his intentions were.

How is it obvious? It isn't obvious from the police officer's say-so. It isn't obvious from the tape. It isn't obvious from Craig's guilty plea, as Debra convincingly argued. Do you have sources of information that we don't have?

parados wrote:
Lest we forget, Craig exited the stall without flushing the toilet.

It seems he also exited without wiping. So what was he doing there?

... says the police officer, whose testimony may or may not be truthful. Assuming that it is, maybe Craig was soliciting sex without urinating or defecating. Maybe he was freaked out by the paper sheet saying "POLICE" being shoved into his stall. The point is, we don't know.


No, he can't change his plea, to the best of my knowledge.

Listen, the fact that it would have been embarassing or politically difficult for him to plead Not Guilty is completely immaterial. If he didn't feel that he was guilty of what he was charged with, then he should have plead that way. He didn't, and therefore the law is quite clear: he did do the things he was accused of. He affirmed in a court of law that he did.

I'm not sure where the confusion rises from here. We have a process for judging if an arrest is good, or if an operation is actually catching the right person - it's called Court. He plead guilty in court. End of story.

Cycloptichorn


It is common for people to plead guilty to crimes they didn't commit. Doing so is the most expeditious and least costly method of making an unpleasant thing go away. Craig agreed to plead guilty to "disorderly conduct" in order to make the unpleasantness go away. The security officer influenced Craig by telling him that he would just pay a fine and that he wouldn't call the media.

A disorderly conduct offense is loosely defined as engaging in "offensive" conduct tending reasonably to arouse alarm, anger, or resentment in others. The law is unconstitutionally vague "as applied" to the shoe tapping incident. Lots of people bounce, shake, tap, and wiggle their feet in public--and they don't expect to be arrested.

Craig's guilty plea is not the end of the story. Craig may retain a lawyer and motion the court to withdraw his guilty plea. Rule 15.05, MN Rules of Crim. Procedure, permits a defendant to withdraw a guilty plea after sentencing when necessary to correct a manifest injustice. Meritorious arguments can be made in Craig's case.



Debra, the chances of Craig successfully withdrawing his plea are slim and none. If you can cite a precedent in which a defendant was able to withdraw a guilty plea under these circumstances, I will stand corrected.

Craig was not coerced in any way. He agreed to the plea weeks after the arrest, willfully, voluntarily and with sound mind.

Evenj if Craig were to get another trial, he would face a far more potentially damaging scenario as now that this case is in the spotlight, John Does are certainly to surface to tell their story, one apparently already has.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 08:32 am
No absolute right to withdraw a guilty plea.

D E C I S I O N

Appellant argues that the district court abused its discretion by denying his motion to withdraw his guilty plea. This court will reverse a district court's decision on a motion to withdraw a guilty plea only if the court abused its discretion. Barnes v. State, 489 N.W.2d 273, 275 (Minn. App. 1992), review denied (Minn. Nov. 3, 1992).

"There are three basic prerequisites to a valid guilty plea: the plea must be accurate, voluntary and intelligent (i.e., knowingly and understandingly made)." State v. Trott, 338 N.W.2d 248, 251 (Minn. 1983). The purpose of the accuracy requirement is to "protect a defendant from pleading guilty to a more serious offense than he could be convicted of [at trial]." Id. The voluntariness requirement acts to "insure that the defendant is not pleading guilty because of improper pressures" or inducements. Id. A plea must be intelligent to insure that the defendant knows and understands the charges, the rights he is waiving by pleading guilty, and the consequences of his plea. Id.

There is no absolute right to withdraw a guilty plea once a plea has been entered. Shorter v. State, 511 N.W.2d 743, 746 (Minn. 1994). While a district court may allow the withdrawal of a plea before sentencing if fair and just to do so, a defendant should not be allowed to withdraw a plea in all cases, because to allow such action would "undermine the integrity of the plea-taking process," and may result in defendants using the guilty plea to postpone trial to some indefinite date in the future when they see fit to make a motion to withdraw their plea. Kim v. State, 434 N.W.2d 263, 266 (Minn. 1989).

Appellant argues that the district court abused its discretion in not allowing him to withdraw his guilty plea before sentencing. He claims that his plea was not voluntary because defense counsel told him that he would not receive a fair trial in Duluth because people in Duluth were prejudiced against Hispanics.

Appellant's former defense counsel, however, denied making such a statement and stated that when asked by appellant whether he would have a jury of his peers, she responded that there were not as many minorities in Duluth as in the Twin Cities. She further stated that there would be minorities on the panel, but not as many as in other places. The district court was free to reject appellant's testimony and accept that of his former defense counsel regarding what she told appellant about the impact race might have on his case. We will not disturb the district court's determination of witness credibility on appeal. See State v. Aviles-Alvarez, 561 N.W.2d 523, 527 (Minn. App. 1997) (stating that when credibility determinations are crucial, "a reviewing court will give deference to the primary observations and trustworthiness assessments made by the district court"), review denied (Minn. June 11, 1997).

Appellant also argues that his plea was coerced and not voluntary. To show that a plea is involuntary or coerced, a defendant must show that his plea was based on "improper pressures" or inducements. Trott, 338 N.W.2d at 251. Here, the record shows that appellant acknowledged signing the guilty plea petition without undue pressure. At the guilty plea hearing, appellant testified that he went over the guilty plea petition with his counsel, that he understood the petition's terms, and that he did not have any questions about the petition or the rights he was giving up by pleading guilty. The record further shows that appellant's former counsel explained to him the realities of being tried by a jury in Duluth. While this information may have influenced his decision to plead guilty, we do not believe that it rises to the level of coercion or demonstrates that his plea was involuntary.

Finally, appellant argues that his plea was not knowing and intelligent because his former counsel did not have an interpreter present when she discussed the guilty plea and plea petition with appellant. At the hearing on appellant's motion to withdraw, his former counsel testified that she had no reason to believe that appellant did not understand their conversation or the petition. The record also shows that although interpreters were present to assist appellant at each hearing in these proceedings, appellant used them only occasionally and he appeared to have a basic understanding of the English language. The record further shows that appellant's former counsel was careful to make sure that appellant spoke up if there was anything he did not understand or if he had any questions.

We therefore conclude that the district court did not abuse its discretion in denying appellant's motion to withdraw his guilty plea.

Affirmed.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 08:44 am
Roxxxanne wrote:
okie wrote:

Another point is that any Republican problem is characterized as a Republican Party problem, not an individual problem. Craig is just a typical Republican hypocrit, but William Jefferson is just having a few problems as an individual, but he is still a good Democrat, very socially moral (even if he is an outright criminal on a personal basis), so let him stay where he's at if he weathers the personal problems. Thats the spin put out by the Democrats. Very clever, and the main stream press reinforces the same spin.

I have to pinch myself to check and see if I am not dreaming about some of these events they are so bazaar [sic]and whacked out. .


No, you are not dreaming, you are delusional, the events that you describe are not reality. Really, you should seek professional help.


I don't pay any attention to you anymore, Roxi, so don't worry about me anymore. Have yourself a nice day.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 08:53 am

That's all very interesting, but it's irrelevant. Debra didn't say there is an absolute right to withdraw a guilty plea. She said there's a conditional right, the condition being that the withdrawal is "necessary to correct a manifest injustice." She also said that "Meritorious arguments can be made in Craig's case."
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 08:55 am
No matter how Craig's situation is spinned, Republican leaders look very shallow in pressuring Craig to resign for reasons that are political, not ethical.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 09:03 am
Senator Larry Craig (R-ustyTrombone)
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 09:30 am
Thomas wrote:

That's all very interesting, but it's irrelevant. Debra didn't say there is an absolute right to withdraw a guilty plea. She said there's a conditional right, the condition being that the withdrawal is "necessary to correct a manifest injustice." She also said that "Meritorious arguments can be made in Craig's case."


I don't see how it would ease the tension in the Party about his original conduct. He knew the protocols for soliciting gay sex in the mens room.
0 Replies
 
 

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