joefromchicago wrote:Foxfyre wrote:An example of irony perhaps except a generalization itself is not ad hominem unless personally directed to somebody.
I find very little to distinguish between the statement that "all liberals engage in insults" and "
this person, because he's a liberal, engages in insults." Indeed, the conclusion in the latter statement is based upon the generalization contained in the former. If the latter is an
ad hominem, I'm not quite sure why the former isn't.
Theoretically you would be correct. The distinction comes in the 'loophole' of allowing some Conservatives to opt out of some Conservative issues and some Liberals to opt out of some Liberal issues. As Wandel said, probably none of us are 100% anything. So to say that most Liberals are this or that would not necessarily be a criticism of you personally. To say that something is 'the Liberal way' is a generalization that allows for a lot of loopholes for those willing to allow them.
The difference I see in Conservative and Liberal debate styles is that the Conservative is more likely to attack what s/he sses as an incorrect generalization while the Liberal is more likely to take it as a personal affront and attack the person making the generalization. Again my perception could be wrong, but it is what it is at this time.
Quote:Foxfyre wrote:My point was that it is a trait of Liberalism to often debate via personal insult.
And it's less insulting when you say that "it is a trait of Liberalism to often debate via personal insult?" An insult doesn't become less of an insult because it is directed at a group rather than an individual.
Well the 'insult' in question in this thread was actually directly at an individual within a particular context and subject that was being discussed. But taken out of that context, yes, if you think the statement is insulting, then it is an insult. The next questions then become, "Why did you think the statement is insulting? You disagree with it? Why?"
The context in which the statement was made, however, was not to say that Conservatives are less likely to be insulting than are Liberals likely to be insulting. That would be a different subject.
The context in which it was made was that the Liberal who is out of ammunition in an argument is more likely to start throwing personal insults in lieu of rational argument. Admitting that my opinion is quite personally biased, I think Conservatives are far less likely to do this purely because they are far less likely to run out of ammunition in an argument.
Quote:Foxfyre wrote:You, as one I view as a staunch liberal--you might object to that characterization--would not have been guilty of my complaint if you had left off the last line. Up until then you were making a reasoned, astute, and well thought out argument devoid of ad hominem content.
Yes, I do object to being called a "liberal." And I fail to see how pointing out irony can be deemed an
ad hominem argument.
If you do not consider yourself to be a Liberal, then you are quite correct to correct me on that point. It was not intended as a personal insult however, and if you took it that way, I regret any offense. That has just been my general perception, but our perception is always our own in any case.
Pointing out irony is not in itself ad hominem. Pointing out irony in a way to suggest hypocrisy is. I may actually deserve that. I am leaving wide open the possibility that my perception and conclusions drawn from it are wrong here.
I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me how or why I am wrong about it, however.
