Insulting people in lieu of reason/logic is the liberal way.

Foxfyre wrote:

So far nobody has attempted to dispute the observation. They just think I'm terrible/silly/blind partisan or whatever to make it.

You are quoting a "silly clown" that did just dispute that observation and rather eloquently I do believe.

(Somebody keep the clown away from the kids, he might teach them something.)

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I read the "silly clown" much differently than you do, Parados. But that isn't unusual either.

Meanwhile I remain the issue with most of the libs chiming in on the thread and that just reinforces my opinion. Those who would like for me to get into a 'pissing match' with you on this, however, should plan to be disappointed.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Insulting people in lieu of reason/logic is the liberal way.

It's a technique taught at our brainwashing academies.

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Fox, just as Dys did, I could probably list several conservatives and liberals who seem to have a proclivity for resorting to put downs/insults/name calling or whatever. Do the rest of us do so? Probably. Just as you agreed, sometimes out of frustration we come back with a quip that could be considered a put down. We've probably all done it. But I really don't believe one side does that more than the other. I certainly would not state that conclusion without some data to back it up. Otherwise it is just an opinion. And something tells me that if you ask most liberals here, their opinion would be exactly the opposite of yours. And without data to back it up, it is worth considering only as an opinion and nothing more.

Oh, and I don't think you are terrible, silly, or a blind partisan.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I read the "silly clown" much differently than you do, Parados. But that isn't unusual either.

So you are saying the "silly clown" agrees with the thesis that was used to start this thread? On what logical basis do you make that claim? The clown said..

Quote:

I know I'm just a clown, but I gotta agree that all sides often resort to snide personal remarks on a somewhat regular basis.

How do you get from that the the clown thinks one side does it more than others? Please point out which statement by our sage but silly clown makes you think he agrees that the liberals are more likely to resort to name calling?

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DrewDad wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Insulting people in lieu of reason/logic is the liberal way.

It's a technique taught at our brainwashing academies.

I had my brain washed once. They used Dawn dishwashing detergent. My wife says that this explains a lot of things, though I'm not quite sure what she means by that.

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CoastalRat wrote:

We've probably all done it. But I really don't believe one side does that more than the other.

This is the most honest way to view it, foxfyre. It is wrong to blame one side more than the other. Also, political viewpoints are fluid. One can be liberal on some issues, conservative on others.

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CoastalRat wrote:

I had my brain washed once. They used Dawn dishwashing detergent. My wife says that this explains a lot of things, though I'm not quite sure what she means by that.

I was wondering how one silly clown got so dang smart but now I have to agree with his wife.

That does explain a lot of things...

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wandeljw wrote:

CoastalRat wrote:
We've probably all done it. But I really don't believe one side does that more than the other.

... It is wrong to blame one side more than the other. ...

If she provided data, it would be OK. But she's just talking out of her butt right now.

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CoastalRat wrote:

Fox, just as Dys did, I could probably list several conservatives and liberals who seem to have a proclivity for resorting to put downs/insults/name calling or whatever. Do the rest of us do so? Probably. Just as you agreed, sometimes out of frustration we come back with a quip that could be considered a put down. We've probably all done it. But I really don't believe one side does that more than the other. I certainly would not state that conclusion without some data to back it up. Otherwise it is just an opinion. And something tells me that if you ask most liberals here, their opinion would be exactly the opposite of yours. And without data to back it up, it is worth considering only as an opinion and nothing more.

Oh, and I don't think you are terrible, silly, or a blind partisan.

Thanks my friend. My opinion was based on experience and nothing more. I made it quite clear that conservatives are as capable of debating via insult as liberals. But it is my obsevation that it is less common among conservatives than it is liberals so on that point we disagree. I think most conservatives will make an argument with a point that is not personally directed but which the liberals find objectionable. The liberals are far more likely to attack the person for making the point than they are likely to attack the point itself.

My quote that Kicky started the thread with was directed as a personal insult to nobody--it was in response to a friend who was denying he was a liberal--but the libs here seem to be taking it as a personally directed insult. (Generally I find that those most guilty of something will do that--okay that was a cheap shot but it was irrisistible. Smile

)

Also I made the point in the first place within a particular context and for a specific purpose in an argument with that friend. Taking the quote out of that context and putting it out there as a blanket statement within any context was sort of dirty pool but I didn't object because I think the broader context is interesting.

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Foxfyre wrote:

How silly what comment was? That ad hominem and personally directed insults are the liberal way of debate rather than the conservative or independent way of debate or argument? I stand by that based on the evidence I've seen here on A2K and elsewhere.

Not all insults are ad hominem arguments, and not all ad hominem arguments are insults. An ad hominem argument simply focuses on the arguer rather than the argument. I am here reminded of a joke:

Student: "I think [i]ad hominem[/i] arguments are logically defensible. There are certain situations, in fact, where they are the only good argument available. In short, I think [i]ad hominem[/i] arguments are perfectly valid. Logic Professor: "You would think that."
An ad hominem, therefore, does not have to involve an insult. The statement that "you think that way because you're a liberal" is just as much an ad hominem as is the statement that "you think that way because you're a moron."

I need not mention that the statement "ad hominem and personally directed insults are the liberal way of debate rather than the conservative or independent way of debate or argument" is itself a form of an ad hominem argument, applied as a generalization to all liberals. That it was written by someone who is accusing others of using ad hominems is, on the other hand, an example of irony.

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It's funny how human nature works, Foxy. We all tend to really notice things directed at "our side" while offending remarks aimed at the other side are not as noticeable. Hence, both "sides" think they are more aggrieved than the other.

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Personally, I prefer the direct insult to the more generalized group insults. I can defend myself against a personal and direct insult. I cannot refute generalities about a group whose members are known only to the attacker.

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wandeljw wrote:

CoastalRat wrote:
We've probably all done it. But I really don't believe one side does that more than the other.

This is the most honest way to view it, foxfyre. It is wrong to blame one side more than the other. Also, political viewpoints are fluid. One can be liberal on some issues, conservative on others.

Look at the posts on this thread and then tell me that one side doesn't do it more than the other. Smile

Or just spend some time observing in the politics forum. If you're capable of being objective at all--and I know you can be objective Wandel--I think a pattern clearly emerges.

Yes we've all done it. And yes, none of us are 100% anything in our socio/political leanings though most of us do come down more strongly committed to a specific ideology. But put into a general context, it is my observation that most Conservatives do debate differently than most Liberals and they are more likely to focus on the issue itself rather than use the issue to personally attack or criticize somebody. It would not be the first time that my observation has been wrong, but so far the Libs on this thread are just reinforcing it. Smile

To frame something in general terms is simply a verbal shortcut and is not a blanket condemnation of any individual or even any group.

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CoastalRat wrote:

It's funny how human nature works, Foxy. We all tend to really notice things directed at "our side" while offending remarks aimed at the other side are not as noticeable. Hence, both "sides" think they are more aggrieved than the other.

You could be right. As I told Wandel, it would not be the first time that my perception or observation was wrong. But I'm seeing some pretty strong reinforcement just on this thread. Smile

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FreeDuck wrote:

Personally, I prefer the direct insult to the more generalized group insults. I can defend myself against a personal and direct insult. I cannot refute generalities about a group whose members are known only to the attacker.

Well gee Duck, I'll have to remember to insult you more. Smile

I prefer the generalities. I can usually ignore them when they are something really stupid like "Conservatives won't pay a few cents more for a head of lettuce" or some inane statement like that. But they can be a useful conversational shortcut. To say that Conservatives favors lower taxes for everybody is not the same thing as saying that EVERY Conservative favors lower taxes for everybody. It is saying that this is a trait of Conservatism.

To say that Liberals want more proactive government on social issues is not the same thing as saying EVERY Liberal wants more proactive government on social issues. It is saying that this is a trait of Liberalism.

Neither is an insult unless somebody identifies with it, objects to it, and choose to take it personally.

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Am I the only one who finds the title of this thread to be ironic?

Cycloptichorn

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joefromchicago wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
How silly what comment was? That ad hominem and personally directed insults are the liberal way of debate rather than the conservative or independent way of debate or argument? I stand by that based on the evidence I've seen here on A2K and elsewhere.

Not all insults are ad hominem arguments, and not all ad hominem arguments are insults. An ad hominem argument simply focuses on the arguer rather than the argument. I am here reminded of a joke:
Student: "I think [i]ad hominem[/i] arguments are logically defensible. There are certain situations, in fact, where they are the only good argument available. In short, I think [i]ad hominem[/i] arguments are perfectly valid. Logic Professor: "You would think that."

An ad hominem, therefore, does not have to involve an insult. The statement that "you think that way because you're a liberal" is just as much an ad hominem as is the statement that "you think that way because you're a moron."

I need not mention that the statement "ad hominem and personally directed insults are the liberal way of debate rather than the conservative or independent way of debate or argument" is itself a form of an ad hominem argument, applied as a generalization to all liberals. That it was written by someone who is accusing others of using ad hominems is, on the other hand, an example of irony.

An example of irony perhaps except a generalization itself is not ad hominem unless personally directed to somebody. My point was that it is a trait of Liberalism to often debate via personal insult. You, as one I view as a staunch liberal--you might object to that characterization--would not have been guilty of my complaint if you had left off the last line. Up until then you were making a reasoned, astute, and well thought out argument devoid of ad hominem content.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Look at the posts on this thread and then tell me that one side doesn't do it more than the other.

What do you expect based on the title of this thread? It's tit for tat. Let's take the two examples you gave me which were not insults but generalities. Because neither were negative, it is easy enough for those who may think they are being included in a group to let it pass if it doesn't apply to them. Change those to things like "liberals tend to use insults more than reason" and you can see why you would get a reaction. How would you respond to "conservatives tend to hate people more than liberals" or "conservatives love war and death" or any number of silly generalities designed to imply that one ideology is somehow superior to the other?

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FreeDuck wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Look at the posts on this thread and then tell me that one side doesn't do it more than the other.

What do you expect based on the title of this thread? It's tit for tat. Let's take the two examples you gave me which were not insults but generalities. Because neither were negative, it is easy enough for those who may think they are being included in a group to let it pass if it doesn't apply to them. Change those to things like "liberals tend to use insults more than reason" and you can see why you would get a reaction. How would you respond to "conservatives tend to hate people more than liberals" or "conservatives love war and death" or any number of silly generalities designed to imply that one ideology is somehow superior to the other?

But a reaction does not have to be ad hominem or otherwise a personally directed insult. I hear "conservatives love war and death" and "conservatives hate people" all the time with no qualifications whatsoever. Do I take these personally? No, I think such comments to be completely stupid, inane, uncreative, and ignorant but not related to me personally in any way. I usually ignore them, but if I take them on it usually won't be by attacking the person making the statements. It will be to state or illustrate how Conservatism is undeserving of such characterizations.

So far nobody but more conservative members have presumed to show how my statement in the thread starter is incorrect. The best most of the liberals have come up with is that I am deserving of much criticism for making such a statement.

And that is the difference between the "Conservative way" and the "Liberal way" as I see it. Agree or disagree.

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Insulting people in lieu of reason/logic is the liberal way.

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