Illegal Immigration

USAFHokie80 wrote:

Eorl wrote:
Hokie, I take it you think environment has zero impact on human development?

Regardless of why they are more likely, it still stands that they *are* more likely to commit crime. That is my point. I'm not saying environment has nothing to do with it. However, they could choose to be law-abiding and try to become more than that.

When it comes to crime statistics, there is a huge association with socioeconomics. Unfortunately, race and socioeconomics are almost inseparable in the United States.

But just because someone grows up in a disadvantaged environment doesn't mean we just excuse sociopathic behavior! Our society actually does a lot to give disadvantaged kids (and beyond) the edge. Have you not heard of affirmative action? But then we get trapped into lowering our expectations for those kids. Whether or not that's appropriate or not is a different discussion. Some might even call that unfair.

My point is, if an innercity kid WANTS to have a different life, there ARE many avenues to achieve that. I didn't grow up disadvantaged by any means, but I definitely moved up from the socioeconomic rung my parents raised me on.

One of my best friends teaches middle school science in the inner city of St. Louis. She's an incredible teacher, but she spends half her day breaking up fights because these kids come from broken homes. Their parents are worthless. A lot of times these 7th graders are actually caring for their baby siblings while mom is finishing up a double at the fast food restaurant. When are they doing their homework? How can they possibly learn? HOW DO YOU FIX THAT?

It's a difficult discussion. There is no easy solution (aside from getting these women to close their legs until they're responsible enough to take care of *a* kid, let alone 16 of them). Good thing George Bush is pushing the disgrace of abstinence-only education... it's obviously done a lot to help the lower rungs of society.

But finding a solution requires us to first face the facts without worrying about bruising egos, and it's refreshing when people like Hokie tell it like it is.

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stls, I like your approach much better than Hokies. We must first learn why the problems persists, then find solutions for them. "Inner city" doesn't have to mean failure; that's been proven enough times where repetition doesn't make it true.

There's a bigger problem with No Child Left Behind, because more minority students are dropping out of school. That's a symptom nobody seems to care about or find solutions. One of major problems with NCLB is that the feds impose mandates without funding it.

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My "approach" was only to explain that racism and stereotypes exist FOR A VALID REASON. (of course, not *all* of them do)

STL is making a completely different point than I am.

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My son is a typical teenager from a middle-class family. He clean-cut, respectful and intelligent (of course).

However, my son is singled out and specifically watched in stores. The only possible reason for this is that his skin is dark.

This used to upset him a lot... but he has learned to deal with it. He and his paler friends have even amused themselves by setting up experiments to see who gets more "attention".

What Hokie is saying is that even though being suspected of wrongdoing only because of the color of your skin is upsetting; and even though my son is a great kid who hasn't done anything wrong-- he should accept racism because, after all, other people with dark skin have committed more crime than people with light skin.

I find this idea very hard to accept.

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ebrown, I'm not sure why you would even consider that to be an option. If it's wrong, it's wrong no matter how many people believe it or insist upon it.

All we can do is actively challenge such ignorance, and continue to advocate for what's right.

It's not a matter of "hard to accept;" we can't.

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ebrown_p wrote:

My son is a typical teenager from a middle-class family. He clean-cut, respectful and intelligent (of course).

However, my son is singled out and specifically watched in stores. The only possible reason for this is that his skin is dark.

This used to upset him a lot... but he has learned to deal with it. He and his paler friends have even amused themselves by setting up experiments to see who gets more "attention".

What Hokie is saying is that even though being suspected of wrongdoing only because of the color of your skin is upsetting; and even though my son is a great kid who hasn't done anything wrong-- he should accept racism because, after all, other people with dark skin have committed more crime than people with light skin.

I find this idea very hard to accept.

Agreed.

Hokie seems to make the statment that statistics are relavant evidence that such racist precepts exist. Moreover stating that the "reason," in the cause and effect sense of the word, these precepts exist is because of a certain expectation of behaivor.

I am interested in whether or not hokie or anyone for that matter believes (as I do) that those expectations/standards can have a effect on the statistics.

T
K
Otherwise, I still waitng to hear why black people are less bouyant.

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As a matter of fact, there was a study done at Stanford to prove that "expectations" has an effect on students. It's been a few years since that study was done, but if anybody can find it, it'll prove interesting and revealing; showing that expectations play a big part in student performance.

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ebrown_p wrote:

My son is a typical teenager from a middle-class family. He clean-cut, respectful and intelligent (of course).

However, my son is singled out and specifically watched in stores. The only possible reason for this is that his skin is dark.

This used to upset him a lot... but he has learned to deal with it. He and his paler friends have even amused themselves by setting up experiments to see who gets more "attention".

What Hokie is saying is that even though being suspected of wrongdoing only because of the color of your skin is upsetting; and even though my son is a great kid who hasn't done anything wrong-- he should accept racism because, after all, other people with dark skin have committed more crime than people with light skin.

I find this idea very hard to accept.

I never said anyone has to like the idea. I'm only saying that I can understand why some stereotypes exist. If this whole race thing is too difficult for you guys to accept, let's pick another one. How about homosexuality!?!?!?

Same thing is true. People stereotype them, saying that all gay men act like women and whatnot because there are a significant number that DO act more feminine.

I'm sure you won't have a problem with this one because it's not quite as taboo. It's much more acceptable to pick on gay people - as long as they're not black *and* gay.

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uh...

T
K
O?

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Crime?
Hokie, I am afraid that along with stereotyping race I think that you are failing to note other types of crime that have a little less play in the press.

The so called "White Collar" crimes harms society more than a spot of violence does but it is rare that we deal with them efficiently.

If one robs a bank or a store with a gun deterrence is much more likely than if you simply buy the bank and mismange it into bankruptcy.

If you pick my pocket in the subway, or charge me an excessive "overdraft fee" on my credit card the result is the same. However though the pickpocket makes the statistics. The banker doesn't.

If I lie on a witness stand it's perjury. Clearly criminal. If I lie to the public, well it's just politics Crying or Very sad

Our statistics are skewed simply because our definitions of crime have little to do with reality.

Is it less of a crime to charge over a thousand times manufacturing cost for lifesaving drugs than to break into a house and steal a TV Question

One is criminal, one is sharp business practice. Santa Claus is coming Exclamation

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akaMec, Good perspective on our "reality." Many people only see what they want to see about "minority" crime, and their eyes glaze over when it happens to be the captains of industry and bankers who have ruined many innocent lives.

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*snaps*

T
K
O

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Re: Crime?

akaMechsmith wrote:

Hokie, I am afraid that along with stereotyping race I think that you are failing to note other types of crime that have a little less play in the press.

The so called "White Collar" crimes harms society more than a spot of violence does but it is rare that we deal with them efficiently.

If one robs a bank or a store with a gun deterrence is much more likely than if you simply buy the bank and mismange it into bankruptcy.

If you pick my pocket in the subway, or charge me an excessive "overdraft fee" on my credit card the result is the same. However though the pickpocket makes the statistics. The banker doesn't.

If I lie on a witness stand it's perjury. Clearly criminal. If I lie to the public, well it's just politics

Our statistics are skewed simply because our definitions of crime have little to do with reality.

Is it less of a crime to charge over a thousand times manufacturing cost for lifesaving drugs than to break into a house and steal a TV

One is criminal, one is sharp business practice. Santa Claus is coming

spot on.

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There is a slight difference in price gouging or securities fraud and armed robbery and murder.

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I agree; with price gouging, people choose to buy - and get gouged.

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It still amazes me to see people pay thousands of dollars to watch a sports event when you can watch it on tv for free.

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USAFHokie80 wrote:

There is a slight difference in price gouging or securities fraud and armed robbery and murder.

Yep, That was what I was trying to point out. There is slight difference--except statistically.

The man with a gun makes the statistics. He is more liable to be a person of lower economic status. A person of lower educational and economic status in the US is more apt to be a Black, or Hispanic. He is running some risk of serious censure. Like hard time.

The man flipping your credit card, jumping your mortgage,or receiving kickbacks is more liable to be of higher educational and economic status. In the US he is most likely to be a WASP, WACD, or Jew of European descent. He is running very little risk of serious censure. At most an enforced vacation.

Criminality doesn't seem to be racial. Doesn't seem to be even economic. Just seems like there is a certain percentage of humans in any given subgrouping that have criminal tendencies. Unless we more accurately define "crime" the statistics will always make a lower economic sub group look worse than they really are. Sad

And make a higher economic sub group look better than they really are Crying or Very sad

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akaMec, Your thesis has the best evidence in the world; all countries, no matter its cultural or racial makeup has white collar criminals.

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I think you missed my point. I would much rather be a victim of credit card theft or some financial loss than on the wrong end of a murder.

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Hokie: I would much rather be a victim of credit card theft or some financial loss than on the wrong end of a murder.

You mean to tell us, we have a choice? LOL

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