Illegal Immigration

Morally, having closed borders at all ...is wrong (to me).

What makes you think you have a greater right than anyone else on the planet to take a job in America? It's pure tribalism. You must rate Americans (or substitute your country/ethnicity/religion/whatever) more highly than other human beings to think otherwise.

I support a restriction of immigration into my country because I am selfish and greedy, but at least I'm not pretending it's about having a right to do so!

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Diest, Not totally true; our (Japanese) family is now made up of (many)Chinese (something I never anticipated as a youngster growing up in Sacramento), Dutch, German, Italian, Polynesian, British, black, Hispanic, and even some Japanese. My younger brother is a state legislator, and I was fortunate to have lunch with Norm Mineta when he was a congressman. My older brother introduced me to Mike Honda some years ago. There are several Asians in the California legislature, so Asians are making a difference.

Hi CI. I don't mean to imply that europeans haven't married and had offspring with Non-europeans. I am after all Half Japanese, half Euro mut myself. I also don't mean to imply that non-europeans havent had an influence on our culture. I feel however that white americans believe in a certain amount of cultural privilage, and it's expressed quite often in our politics, schools, and standards.

For instance, the notion of professionalism and professional dress. This is an area in which I personally have experianced is not willing to melt.

I think that white english speaking americans are okay with immigrants coming over to the USA and assimilating current american stardards (which are almost entirely based off of western european immigrants from the past.) I don't think however that the americans are willing to let those standards be changed or influenced in any way.

Personally I think about all the parents in a uproar when my highschool changed "Christmas Break" into "Winter Break." My family is not Christian, but we celebrated Christmas, more as a national holiday, so personally I wasnot empassioned about the change, while at the same time, it made full sense in my mind.

Mumble...

I guess my frustration is that as a multicultured individual in the USA, and having experianced many different people from many different regions of the USA, I feel pressured to embrace more of my european heritage than may Japanese heritage.

I think that we can comprimise, and so I bowevery time I shake someone's hand or hold a door.

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Diest, We are fortunate in California for many reasons; we have all manners of cultural events in our area, and "Japanese, Hispanic, Asian, Chinese, Hawaiian, and other cultural events are attended by many outside the culture. One of the biggest events we have in our area is the Buddhist Church annual bazzar in Mountain View. It's a two day event in July (about the third week every year), and we have friends from many parts of the bay area who come every year to join us have lunch there. They have Obon dancing in the evening, but we leave before sunset. We have attended the Greek and several Hispanic festivals/bazaars in our area. Everybody always feels welcome.

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Another phenomenon that I have observed over the years. Many whites have taken Japanese language courses, because of the opportunities offered by many Japanese companies here in Silicon Valley and in Japan. Recently, many have started to learn Chinese (Mandarin). I think economics has a way to influence what languages becomes popular. Most developed countries in the world today make English mandatory in their schools. Most of my friends in Europe speak a minimum of two languages, and sometimes up to four. We in the US are way behind in language skills.

Another observation I find interesting is the simple fact that many of the local tour guides in many countries speak very good English. Tour guides earn very good money, and many universities in Europe and Asia have "tourism" as a specialized field that offers advanced degrees. When I visited Romania several years ago, our local guide was a dentist; he earned more as a guide than he did as a dentist.

Economics.

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immigration bill dead
The Senate just failed by 7 votes to move Bush's Immigration Bill forward.

The Bill is dead---for now.

BBB

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Three cheers for the status quo!!!

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I think the failure was foregone conclusion before the vote.

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Without anyone's intent, I believe there's sort of a red-herring component to the popular discussion of illegals (aka, undocumented workers) coming from Mexico, or Latin America. We also have many "legals" coming from Asia which is changing the demographics of many urban neighborhoods. To accomodate the high density in these neighborhoods the infrastructure is being stressed (e.g., water supply, sewage, roads, transportation, schools).
Naturally, new immigrants, legal or illegal, are insular, and only a generation later their children are acculturated to some degree.
In the meantime, it's future shock to those that grew up on Howdy Doody.
Mind you, I'm not against them for being of this or that ethnic/racial background. I just think that many who are coming here are not coming based on the same motivations of prior generations of immigrants (to become Americans, and all that means). Perhaps, I'm wrong. Time will tell.
In the meantime, I try to ignore all immigrants, and talk to Americans who were either born here, or arrived as small children. Forgive me for being so set in my ways.

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Foofie, Welcome to a2k. Your honesty is refreshing.

What was the motivation of earlier immigrants, and what are their motivations today?

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Quote:

Naturally, new immigrants, legal or illegal, are insular, and only a generation later their children are acculturated to some degree.
...

In the meantime, I try to ignore all immigrants, and talk to Americans who were either born here, or arrived as small children. Forgive me for being so set in my ways.

Very funny.

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"What was the motivation of earlier immigrants, and what are their motivations today?" (I don't know how to "Box" a quote)

I can only talk from what I was told about my grandparents that came in the later half of the 19th century. They went to night school to learn English, so they can become American citizens. They wanted their children to assimilate into the American culture. They held onto their religion and cuisine, but gave up their language and dress (since their children liked to speak English and dress like Americans).

I don't know if many current immigrants are rushing to become American citizens, or rushing to learn English, or giving up their prior dress or other prior cultural vestiges. My own personal opinion is a non-sequitor, really.
Forgive me for not knowing. Forgive me for not caring.

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Quote:

Forgive me for not knowing. Forgive me for not caring.

OK, you are forgiven.

The immigrants that came in the later part of the 19th century had a very similar experience to todays immigrants. You can be sure about this when you read what the conservatives of the time were saying.

They were complaining about how Foofies grandparents couldn't assimilate, how they were increasing crime and raising diseases. In fact it was because of Foofie's grandparents that we had to make the first immigration laws (before the early 20th century any healthy white person could come without much trouble).

Saying that today's immigrants don't want to become American citizens is ridiculous considering a major part of the argument is whether we should offer "a path to citizenship".

Today's immigrants are attending night school to learn English (around here English classes are always full) just like Foofie's grandparents. I know many kids who are immigrants (some of whom are not citizens) who are so assimilated that you couldn't tell they are not here legally.

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Can you explain to me how the current application process for naturalization is *not* a "path to citizenship" ?

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USAFHokie80 wrote:

Can you explain to me how the current application process for naturalization is *not* a "path to citizenship" ?

Of course it is; as is the process of being born and the process of dying in Iraq and receiving posthumous citizenship.

I was, of course, talking about a path to citizenship for the people living, working and raising families here now.

The specific comment in my last post was in response to the claim that today's immigrants don't want to be American citizens. The fact that they are asking for a path to citizenship disproves this.

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"I don't know if many current immigrants are rushing to become American citizens, ..."

This is what I said earlier. I did not say they don't want to become American citizens, I said, "I don't know if many current immigrants are rushing..."

There's a nuanced meaning there that makes it a question. Not a declarative statement.

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ebrown_p wrote:

USAFHokie80 wrote:
Can you explain to me how the current application process for naturalization is *not* a "path to citizenship" ?

Of course it is; as is the process of being born and the process of dying in Iraq and receiving posthumous citizenship.

I was, of course, talking about a path to citizenship for the people living, working and raising families here now.

The specific comment in my last post was in response to the claim that today's immigrants don't want to be American citizens. The fact that they are asking for a path to citizenship disproves this.

That didn't answer my question whatsoever. There is a path for them to become citizens. However, they don't seem to care about that.

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For the 12 million people involved there is no path to citizenship... if they leave they will be barred from returning.

For most of them there was never a path to citizenship. Our immigration process is not only long and difficult... it is also unfair and arbitrary.

The immigration process is for the privileged. The people who come from European countries have a big advantage. People who can afford expensive lawyers and have influential connections in the US are even better.

You had citizenship bestowed upon you at birth... and we are all proud of you that you were born with privilege.

It isn't right for you to judge others who weren't so fortunate.

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ebrown_p wrote:

For the 12 million people involved there is no path to citizenship... if they leave they will be barred from returning.

For most of them there was never a path to citizenship. Our immigration process is not only long and difficult... it is also unfair and arbitrary.

The immigration process is for the privileged. The people who come from European countries have a big advantage. People who can afford expensive lawyers and have influential connections in the US are even better.

You had citizenship bestowed upon you at birth... and we are all proud of you that you were born with privilege.

It isn't right for you to judge others who weren't so fortunate.

Am I interpreting the above correctly to read that becoming a U.S. citizen should become a right for the underprivileged of the world? Can I decide to go to any country and become a citizen of any country? Sorry to sound so obtuse, but why do other countries get to limit citizenship, but the U.S. should give fair and equal treatment to all comers?

And, as an aside, does anyone think the term "Gringo" is a compliment. No it isn't. It is used with a disparaging meaning, usually. And, when Hispanics make reference to their population as La Raza (The Race) are they being inclusive? Who is alienated from who, I wonder?
If one also sees the novellas on Spanish tv, one will see that most of the actors are Blancos (White), so most of the Hispanics that are coming here are the economic losers in their own countries that give privilege to those with European ancestory. Muy interesante, si? My point is, if the mother country of these undocumented workers don't give them economic equality, in that privilege goes to those with European ancestry, are we supposed to right that wrong?

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grin·go(grngg)
n. pl. grin·gos Offensive Slang
Used as a disparaging term for a foreigner in Latin America, especially an American or English person.

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e_brownp - I agree with your thoughts. It's ridiculous to assert that immigrants don't want to naturalize.

The funny thing about rights and persecussion is that the persecutor actually lashes out at another person for coveting what he himself covets most.

The people who are against illegal immigration are also people who typically want the process to be more difficult? I want a minuteman to walk me through that logic! How can you be critical of a Mexican family, saying that if they want to come over they need to use the avenues avalible, but at the some time rally for a more rigid immigration policy?

To rephrase... How can you support legal immigration, and support rasing the difficulty for someone to legally immigrate? Isn't that just the cowardice of not being able to say that you simply don't want "them" here?

T
K
O

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Illegal Immigration

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