Illegal Immigration

For the record, I really don't care about one's race. I feel that immigrants should be required to follow the law regardless of the contry from which they emmigrate.

Three points to that Hokie...

1) This issue will be resolved Democratically. Whatever we do as a country will be done by elected representatives that will be elected by Americans. This is why what Americans think about each party... and about each person running is all important.

If a significant number of Americans consider one party, or politicians associated with one point of view, as racist... it will have an affect in who gets elected. And this will have an affect on the direction the country takes.

Conservatives and Republicans can rant all they want. It doesn't change the inconvient fact that we are in a Democracy which keeps them from getting whatever they want.

2) There is racism, and racist thems in the anti-"illegal"-immigration arguments that are obvious to me and to many voting Americans.

This matters because it motivates me and many American citizens to vote against the politician and the party (that is the Republicans in case you don't know) that we consider to be accepting of these racist ideas.

3) You are confusing the racist anti-immigration arguments from the non-racist ones. This may be why you have trouble understanding how many of us feel.

I do not believe that every anti-"illegal" immigration argument, or that every person that is anti-"illegal"-immigrant is racist. That is not what I am saying. In fact I have been very deliberate communicating this.

However there are many things be said by prominant anti-"illegal"-immigrant people, and many arguments being used even here that are clearly racist.

Among these are the use of the word "invasion"-- claims about immigrants and violent crime that are provable lies. Stereotyping. The claim that Hispanic Americans that disagree with you are disloyal. The use of the word "traitor" for American citizens who disagree.

Don't confuse the issue... saying that you are upset about people who break the law doesn't make anyone a racist. Saying racist things, using racist stereotypes and questioning the loyalty of Americans based on their ethnicity does make one a racist.

BTW this is a perfect example.

You say "Of course Latinos say it's racism" as if we don't have to value the point of view of Latinos. The Latinos I know who are American citizens support compassionate immigration reform because they love their country and think this is what is best. By the way, many Americans who aren't Latino feel the same way.

The term "Mexican brethren" suggests that their point of view is out of line with what a "loyal American" would say (i.e. people who aren't "brethren" with the Mexicans will automatically think different).

Your implication that black people are only upset when someone black is arrested is a slam on a different ethnic group. You are saying that the concerns being raised by African Americans are invalid and shouldn't be taken into account.

I know you don't think that any of these are racism... but that is not the point.

The point is that many American voters are offended by statements like this... and thus they will react by voting against positions and politicians that are associated with them.

Your mistake is that these Latinos and Blacks that you show disrepect to are, in fact, loyal American citizens. More importantly, they get to vote.

The problem with anti-racism and anti-stereotyping is that they exist for a reason. There is a disproportionate number of black men in the nations jail as compared to white men and it's not because the whole nation is racist. There is a disproportionate number of black and hispanic people in gangs - again, not because the nation is racist.

I realize racism and stereotyping is a problem as I'm in a minority myself. Actually, I am in the "worst" minority because even black and hispanic people do not think I deserve the same rights they do. That being said, I also realize why these stereotypes exist - even those that characterize *my* minority group. I don't particularly appreciate it when they are applied to me, but I can understand why someone would think those things.

I think that far too often people use racism as an excuse. When a not-insignificant portion of any population exhibits a set of traits, it is unrealistic to think observers won't assume the rest of that population exhibits the same traits. We tend to think of black guys as thugs and criminals because a large number of them are. Popular culture embraces the criminal-gang-member lifestyle. I think it's somewhat silly for them to expect treatment any different while they glorify such things.

So anyway, my point is that these same things apply to all ethnicities and groups.

Compasion is great, but it should never be a substitute for reason.

I think your point of view is both ridiculous and offensive. Of course, me telling you this doesn't do very much good.

There are many Americans of all ethnicities (including the poor long suffering oppressed white males you talk about) who agree with me. You have a great way of making many groups with differing interest work together against you. (Maybe I should be thanking you.)

The battles will be won in the ballot box. The fact that you guys insist on offending so many groups isn't very smart when you think about it. Don't say I didn't warn you.

I predict that the future has you guys getting angrier and angrier as you lose battle after battle-- until suddenly you just sort of implode.

What's ridiculous about it? And I'm not talking about "poor long suffering white males" by the way. But please, explain to me where my last post was so ridiculous. I don't refute the fact that it might be offensive - sometimes truth is hard to hear.

Hokie - You're eating all the meat needed to prove you are a vegitarian. Using a racist arguement like "these stereotypes exist for a reason" and then claiming that you are not a racist doesn't fit.

T
K
O

gotta eat, I'm starving... BBL

I think anyone who says that he is not a racist in some respect is full of **** - myself included. And once again TKO... you're not reading what I wrote. I never said I wasn't a racist. If you're not going to take the time to *actually* read my posts, I'd appreciate it if you would keep your comments to yourself.

Stereotypes do exist for a reason. Please, if anything I said in that last post is untrue, tell me.

My bad Hokie. I didn't mean to assume you were not racist. Wear the title of your choice.

It would seem then that you are using your racism as your excuse then.


Laugh. I'm sorry I didn't realize that reason was the antonym for compassion. The only reason you are exercising is the ability to rationalize not having to give a damn.

I'm not impressed. Lot's of people find an excuse to not give a damn.

T
K
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I don't think you should assume that anyone is without bias, including yourself.

I have both black and hispanic friends to whom I don't think any of the typical stereotypes apply. However, I still get anxious when I'm downtown at night and a group of black guys approach. You can chastise me all you like, but I'm honest about my bias. I'm pretty sure that even if you refuse to admit it, you have some of the same biases which are at least in part based on race.

What is it you think I'm excusing with racism? I'm simply saying that it exists and for a reason.

And of course compassion and reason aren't always antagonistic, but they definitely aren't always congruent either.

It's funny that if all of my comments above were so out-of-line and racism doesn't exist for a reason, that you didn't refute any of my claims of the number of black vs. white men that are party to crimes... probably because you know it's true.

My experiences has been different than Hokies; our family grew up in the ghettos of Sacramento where very few whites lived. From kindergarten to 9th grade, our classmates were Asians, Hispanics and blacks.

Fast forward to now: I have traveled extensively around the world, and have traveled to over 100 countries. I often walk alone in towns when there are no travel warnings - day or night.

Early this year, while in Montevideo, Uruguay, a young kid around 16 years old came from behind, pulled on my camera and broke the strap, and ran off with my camera. It's the first time I was robbed on the streets although I've heard of people's wallets and purses being snatched while travelling.

I don't think that one incident will change my desire to walk alone in strange towns/countries.

I traveled to Egypt a few months after the massacre at Hatshepsut Temple, and also traveled to Israel a few months after their war with Lebanon without incident. I believe it's more dangerous to life and limb driving our car around our home town, because that's what statistics tell us. I believe that. I don't think I'm a racist just because I'm Japanese American.

I have friends in Europe, Australia, Asia, Russia, South America, Middle East, Canada and Africa.

Regardless of person experiences, the fact remains that black and hispanic persons are much more likely to commit crimes than a white person. This is only one of the reasons for racism, but it's a very compelling one.

freeze

I'm not really sure why you find my statement worthy of a signature line. I suppose that it you way of demonstrating how "absurd" and "ridiculous" it is. The problem is that it is back by years of statistical data from the department of justice. Perhaps you should include a link to their page as well.

oh, brown... you have yet to tell me which parts of the naturalization process are soooo unfair as you have said many times. i asked a few posts back... maybe you missed it...

Ask one of the many Black and Hispanic friends you said you have.

Maybe they will be able to explain it to you.

Once again... I am well aware that the statement is offensive - rightfully so. That in no way changes the merit of it. Offensive or not, it's true. I'm sure you know this as you made no attempt o discredit the statement, other than to say it is offensive.

Kinda like saying that retarded babies will never be aerospace engineers.

The statistics certainly suggest that you are more likely to be convicted of a crime.

I'm with Brown, ask your black and mexican friends to explain this to you. I call bluff.

Racism does exist for a reason, but it does exist as a part of our functionality, but instead exists because people refuse to challenge themselves.

As for my bias, certainly, I've been put in uncomfortable situations, but I've never felt more threatened by the black homeless man demanding money than I feel threatened by the white guy doing the same thing.

But I suppose eventually you'll explain to us why black people are less bouyant too.

T
K
O

I assume that the "you" in that first statement is a general third person referring to the minorities I mentioned above.

Ask them to explain what? Call bluff on what?

There's nothing to call bluff on.



That is just poorly written and difficult to understand. Looking at just the end, I'll assume you mean racism exists because people refuse to challenge themselves. Challenge in what way?

Homeless men aren't particularly threatening however uncomfortable. I won't bother to ask about the hypothetical situation I described, as I'm sure there's a reason you chose a completely different and obviously more benign situation for your comment.