Illegal Immigration

Diest TKO wrote:

e_brownp - I agree with your thoughts. It's ridiculous to assert that immigrants don't want to naturalize.

The funny thing about rights and persecussion is that the persecutor actually lashes out at another person for coveting what he himself covets most.

The people who are against illegal immigration are also people who typically want the process to be more difficult? I want a minuteman to walk me through that logic! How can you be critical of a Mexican family, saying that if they want to come over they need to use the avenues avalible, but at the some time rally for a more rigid immigration policy?

To rephrase... How can you support legal immigration, and support rasing the difficulty for someone to legally immigrate? Isn't that just the cowardice of not being able to say that you simply don't want "them" here?

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Hey, you read my mind. I would prefer no immigration. No vehement dislike of arriving immigrants; I'd just prefer they not come here.

Living in an urban center where immigrants initially settle, I don't care for the added stress of having to interact with folks who are first learning how life is here (like how "lines" work at a store's cashier). Or, if I get into a conversation with an immigrant that did learn English, I can't wax nostalgic over old tv shows that weren't likely shown in his/her country of origin, or if they were, he/she can't obviously remember the degree of popularity of I Love Lucy here in the U.S. Simply put, ideally, I would prefer to replicate, in my urban setting, a degree of small town life, where generations of a family lived where I live.

I tolerate well the immigrants that are here, since I understand I don't live in a small town, and an urban center doesn't have the benefit of a static population, growing only with newborns. I don't even appreciate the "transplants" from other parts of the U.S.

So, I ignore immigrants, as they, for the most part ignore me, and smile when their small children talk in English (since immigrants do contribute to the U.S., even if it's only by having children, who will likely be good U.S. citizens). I just don't care for the stress of the heterogeneous demographics; and it's too late for me to migrate to a small town.
In truth, most immigrants live in an insular immigrant community in urban centers, and want little to do with Americans from other "groups."

I hope it is seen that I am not a coward. I just can't learn to appreciate any of the positive qualities of immigrants, since my criteria reflects a vision of a more homogeneous population of another era.

I admit my grandparents, arriving 120 years ago, appeared like aliens to Americans that had been here for generations; however, my being the product of living in this culture for my entire life, I don't see why I should now pretend I wouldn't like a more homogeneous population to live in? Like not everyone has a wanderlust to travel, or likes exotic cuisine, so in a similar vein, I like a population that remembers what I remember. Call me provincial, but not a coward! There's no law against provincial (aka parochial) preferences.

And, the fact that earlier generations of Americans would have preferred my grandparents to not come to the the U.S., is no reason, for me, to empathize with immigrants and their quest for a better life in the U.S.

Let's not forget, a legal immigrant oftentimes, eventually, becomes a voting citizen, and, in my own opinion, I don't think many will vote the way I vote. Another reason for my lack of appreciation for their arrival.

I hope anyone reading this understands that there can be logical personal reasons for not wanting immigration.

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Astonishment. Foofie, let's examine some of your arguement, then we can say whether or not you show cowardice.

Foofie wrote:

I tolerate well the immigrants that are here, since I understand I don't live in a small town, and an urban center doesn't have the benefit of a static population, growing only with newborns.

I have lived in both small and large communities, and the "static" cultic which you describe is rare even in the smallest, and is never a benifit. Without diversity in the way we think, most of our greatest accomplishments would have never come to be. Show me examples in history where a static culture 1) exists and 2) thrived and I'll show you otherwise.

Foofie wrote:

I just don't care for the stress of the heterogeneous demographics; and it's too late for me to migrate to a small town.

What kinds of life lessons are you deficent in? If you can't deal with different types of people, then the fault lies on you, not them. Also, I'm not sure what you THINK you see in small towns, I think you'd find more hetrogeneous culture there than you'd guess. I guess it is too late to move, the isolated culture of the small town nuclear family is gone.

Foofie wrote:

In truth, most immigrants live in an insular immigrant community in urban centers, and want little to do with Americans from other "groups."

True, most immigrants live in insular immigrant communities. This is a good thing. Trial by fire has never been a good way to gamble with the wellfare of your family. Given the same situation, you would find the community of best support to you, where you would be able to acclimate at a more natural pace. As for immigrants wanting little to do with Americans, I call bluff. Those other "groups" you vaguely reference, I will assume is the naturalized american citizens. I'd venture to say that people like yourself are more of a henderence to there incorperation into groups.

Foofie wrote:

I hope it is seen that I am not a coward. I just can't learn to appreciate any of the positive qualities of immigrants, since my criteria reflects a vision of a more homogeneous population of another era.

It's not that you CAN'T, it's that you WON'T. Again, what era do you refer?

Foofie wrote:

I admit my grandparents, arriving 120 years ago, appeared like aliens to Americans that had been here for generations; however, my being the product of living in this culture for my entire life, I don't see why I should now pretend I wouldn't like a more homogeneous population to live in? Like not everyone has a wanderlust to travel, or likes exotic cuisine, so in a similar vein, I like a population that remembers what I remember. Call me provincial, but not a coward! There's no law against provincial (aka parochial) preferences.

In summary: You're close minded, and you think that your closed minded beliefs are of equal respect in the marketplace of ideas.

Foofie wrote:

And, the fact that earlier generations of Americans would have preferred my grandparents to not come to the the U.S., is no reason, for me, to empathize with immigrants and their quest for a better life in the U.S.

In this stalement you acknowledge that you value the life that one can have in the USA, and yet try and separate your sense of entitlement from their desire to make a better life. You prove my statement...

Diest TKO wrote:

The funny thing about rights and persecussion is that the persecutor actually lashes out at another person for coveting what he himself covets most.

I'm glad you find pride and happiness in the states, but you are being a hypocrite and aren't desreving of the rights you have.

Foofie wrote:

Let's not forget, a legal immigrant oftentimes, eventually, becomes a voting citizen, and, in my own opinion, I don't think many will vote the way I vote. Another reason for my lack of appreciation for their arrival.

How they vote? This thing we call our government is bigger than you. It's not about individuals, it's about US (plural). You can't be so critical of other's beliefs not benifitting you, when you so boastfully admit that your own beliefs only serve yourself!

Foofie wrote:

I hope anyone reading this understands that there can be logical personal reasons for not wanting immigration.

I believe you can have all the personal reasons you want. But don't try and pass them off as logic with such a weak arguement. I am left unimpressed. I don't see anything to suggest your arguement is based off of anything but blind fear. You have characterized your fear in every statement you have made.

Judgement: Coward

I'm sorry if you don't like being called it, but you chose to wear the clothes of a coward, and speak the words of one. Why do you expect anything else?

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Diest TKO wrote:

e_brownp - I agree with your thoughts. It's ridiculous to assert that immigrants don't want to naturalize.

The funny thing about rights and persecussion is that the persecutor actually lashes out at another person for coveting what he himself covets most.

The people who are against illegal immigration are also people who typically want the process to be more difficult? I want a minuteman to walk me through that logic! How can you be critical of a Mexican family, saying that if they want to come over they need to use the avenues avalible, but at the some time rally for a more rigid immigration policy?

To rephrase... How can you support legal immigration, and support rasing the difficulty for someone to legally immigrate? Isn't that just the cowardice of not being able to say that you simply don't want "them" here?

T
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I don't support "making legal immigration more difficult." However, I don't support letting anyone into the country just because they want to come. Allowing unchecked immigration is only going to worsen the economy of the nation. The underprivileged of Mexico come to the US not only because they know they can find work, but also because they know they will get so many hand-outs. Our welfare system rewards illegal immigrants by means of free/discount healthcare, food, housing and other things. As a nation, we can barely take care of the children of out citizens. We simply don't have the resources to care for another nation.

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USAFHokie80 wrote:

I don't support "making legal immigration more difficult." However, I don't support letting anyone into the country just because they want to come.

Whose desires must be satisfied for you to grant your graces on their entry?

USAFHokie80 wrote:

Allowing unchecked immigration is only going to worsen the economy of the nation.

Let's not forget how the Mexican economy got so screwed up in the first place. And who says unchecked is okay? I'm just saying that it's ridiculous to rally for a more difficult system when we are in such a situation.

USAFHokie80 wrote:

The underprivileged of Mexico come to the US not only because they know they can find work, but also because they know they will get so many hand-outs.

Outsourcing, if it is a burden on your mind, is a issue you should take up with big bussiness, not our immigration policy.

USAFHokie80 wrote:

Our welfare system rewards illegal immigrants by means of free/discount healthcare, food, housing and other things.

And our tax system rewards those who make the most money and abuse the average consumer. The blue things above, I thought our Nation was founded on values that said that we are entitled to such things; life and liberty etc. I'm not saying the system is perfect, but I think that walls and closing our borders is a step in the wrong direction. We'd be better to use our resourses in other ways.

USAFHokie80 wrote:

As a nation, we can barely take care of the children of out citizens. We simply don't have the resources to care for another nation.

Our foreign policy, and global precedence says otherwise. I personally would have prefered helping our neighbors out than going to Iraq. But there's no quick financial gain in Mexico. Don't lecture me about resourses.

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Diest TKO wrote:

. . . To rephrase... How can you support legal immigration, and support rasing the difficulty for someone to legally immigrate? Isn't that just the cowardice of not being able to say that you simply don't want "them" here?

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We (USA) need the labor, and legal immigrants need the income. I support legal immigration for just that reason and that reason is sufficient for making the process shorter, quicker, and easier. I don't know of anyone who can't accept the reasoning. I could care less whether their intent is to become citizens, or just to work at a higher wage than they could get at home. I have no problem with guest workers in the US earning good wages for a few years and retuning to the place they call home.

Why the accusation of cowardice? Legal immigrants have presented themselves for our approval. Illegals have not. There is a significant difference. So I'm a coward for pointing that out? Oddly, I disagree with your paraphrase.

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Well Roger, according to your post you are for making it easier for immigrants come over legally, so no you don't get branded as a coward.

Just one thing though...

Roger wrote:

Legal immigrants have presented themselves for our approval. Illegals have not. There is a significant difference.

What makes you so sure that our approval has anything to do with whether someone immigrates legally or illegally? I don't believe that immigrants have concern for our approval or lack thereof.

A legal immigrant could not care, an illegal could care.

I see no such obvious correlation.

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Diest TKO wrote:

Well Roger, according to your post you are for making it easier for immigrants come over legally, so no you don't get branded as a coward. You are exactly right. I'm quite in favor of legal immigration.
Just one thing though...

Roger wrote:
Legal immigrants have presented themselves for our approval. Illegals have not. There is a significant difference.

What makes you so sure that our approval has anything to do with whether someone immigrates legally or illegally? I don't believe that immigrants have concern for our approval or lack thereof.

A legal immigrant could not care, an illegal could care.

I see no such obvious correlation.

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I'm lost on this and am not ashamed to admit it. I would say a legal immigrant cares enough for our approval/acceptance to follow the legal route. Now, if someone clears the legal hurdles and becomes a problem, that is our fault; not theirs. It is obvious to me, at least, that an illegal does not have great concerns for the legal route. That's why they are illegal, see? Well, they might also be taking a pragmatic view, due to the length of time the process can take.

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your arguments make ma laugh. as i said before, i am do not rally for a more complex immigration path.

i'm also not terribly worried about outsourcing. you obviously read what you wanted to and now what i wrote.

and no, we are not guaranteed free healthcare or food. sorry, but that is not in the constitution. and let us not forget that even if it were, those rights are reserved for "we, the people fo the united states." that is, those things are not for anyone who can manage to run across our border without getting caught.

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USAFHokie80 wrote:

your arguments make ma laugh. as i said before, i am do not rally for a more complex immigration path.

Laugh all you want. Also, it doesn't matter if you don't rally for a more complex immigration path, you are asserting that...

USAFHokie80 wrote:

There is a path for them to become citizens. However, they don't seem to care about that.

...Which directly implies that you don't think the current process is complex of too complex. You seem to think that the current process is perfectly acceptable.

USAFHokie80 wrote:

i'm also not terribly worried about outsourcing. you obviously read what you wanted to and now what i wrote.

You, not me, brought up the issue of jobs. Fair game.

USAFHokie80 wrote:

and no, we are not guaranteed free healthcare or food. sorry, but that is not in the constitution. and let us not forget that even if it were, those rights are reserved for "we, the people fo the united states." that is, those things are not for anyone who can manage to run across our border without getting caught.

I made no statement about entitlement. I was very careful not to. It's not about the right to free healthcare or food, but that our country is built on values that are pro-immigrant, and further the enabling of immigrants to come the USA and thrive.

Laugh all you want, but eventually the questions I ask deserve your answers.

Roger - I still think you are basing too much of your opinion on the immigrants motive on legality.

roger wrote:

It is obvious to me, at least, that an illegal does not have great concerns for the legal route.

I think you should try and remove yourself from the equation and examine this problem from an foreign family's perspective. Honestly, I think that given unsustainable means of survival (to say your family's wellfare is seriously in jeopardy) that you too would be less focused on gaining other's approval or the legal avenues provided. I think that you'd be more concerned with their welfare and how to resolve the problem at hand.

[sarcasm]
But I don't know you. I suppose it's perfectly rational to assume othewise as well; that you faced with a serious comprimise of your family's welfare, would march down and pay $5000.00 that you don't have and wait for several years while your family's condition continues to sour. It's perfectly rational to in that moment, when your children need an education or clothes or things like food to chew on, that you would be to preoccupied with the opinions/concerns of the Americans. You'd be too ashamed to lose their favor of you.

I mean, hell, they all had to do it once right? They'd understand! Their families paid their $5000.00 when they came over years ago right? Just remember, you can afford to be moronically patient.
[/sarcasm]

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No good, Diest. You're not going to back me into a position like that. I'm not going to blame anyone for something I might well do myself. However, when trying to work in a country that hasn't granted me the right to be there, let alone earn wages there, my minimum expectation would be that I would be sent home when my status were discovered. I would also make myself aware of other penalties, such as fines or imprisonment, and either accept the risk or stay home.

Look at it like this. We have traffic laws, with fines and possible imprisonment. I usually know what the speed limit is. Sometimes, I agree to abide by those limits. Other times, I may decide the benefits outweigh the risks and put the hammer down. Now, I think that people working in the US in defiance of the law have made a similar cost/benefit analysis. That is, the potential earnings outweigh the potential of being sent back to the country of their citizenship. Oh, their analysis is correct, by the way. The benefits are quite large, while the costs are small.

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Quote:

...my minimum expectation would be that I would be sent home when my status were discovered. I would also make myself aware of other penalties, such as fines or imprisonment, and either accept the risk or stay home.

Isn't the fact that so many come the evidence that the risk to take staying is worse than the risk you take going?

Quote:

The benefits are quite large, while the costs are small.

Small cost? I now begin to question your grasp of the issue.

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And the cost is what? A cash fine? No, it isn't done. Jail time? No, again. The cost is being returned to the starting point without passing go.

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roger wrote:

And the cost is what? A cash fine? No, it isn't done. Jail time? No, again. The cost is being returned to the starting point without passing go.

The cost of staying is greater than the cost of illegally crossing. Are you aware at what the standard of living is in countries like Mexico is? My cousin works for the state department and was stationed in Mexico City for 4 years. The quality of life is miserable. You wouldn't stand for it.

I'm just curious though. Why were your ansestors privilage to more than present day immigrants?

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TKO... you are again seeing what you want to see, and not what i've written.

You are right, I did say that there currently is a path to citizenship but that immigrants refuse to follow it. This implies NOTHING other than the fact that one exists. I cannot speak on the "complexity" of it. My point is that one exists that many legal immigrants use every year. It is obviously not so complex to be impossible

Quote:

You, not me, brought up the issue of jobs. Fair game.

This really irritates me. I didn't say anything about "outsourcing" or them "taking our jobs." To be perfectly honest, I don't give a **** about that. I'm an engineer for a Fortune 500 company, so I am not really worried that I'll lose my job to an uneducated illegal immigrant.

What I ACTUALLY said was that they come here because they know they can find work. THAT'S IT.

As for claiming that it is a right for healthcare/food. This is what you said:

Quote:

The blue things above, I thought our Nation was founded on values that said that we are entitled to such things; life and liberty etc.

And THEN you try to say:

Quote:

I made no statement about entitlement. I was very careful not to.

So actually, you did say ENTITIELD. You even used that exact word.

It's really irritating that you refuse to actually read what people are writing. And in stead, you substitute what you *think* they say for their actual thoughts, and then blast them for it. All the while, you backpedal on what you've actually said.

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Opps! I actully meant to say "rights" (meaning to say in the second post that is that "I made no statement about "rights"), not entitlement in the second post. The word rights, is the overloaded with extra meaning.
My error, a wire must have got crossed.

As for you being a engineer in a F500, congrats. However, outsoursing affects you to. In fact it may even help you. But it is still a part of your life, and it is a very related subject with immigration. As a side note, I'm curious what engineering company. I'm an engineer too. If you are an airforce person, I'm curious if you are in the aerospace industry. That is my field.

Yes, there is a current path, no it's not impossible. I'm just saying that it's harder for the people who need entry such as hispanics than it is for europeans. The process is not accetable as is, and further, since the process is not acceptable in my opinion, it is ridiculous to be passing out judgement on those who immigrate illegally. They should be able to enter as your family, my family most european family's did.

I've still heard no answer to my question from either you or Roger.

USAFHokie80 wrote:

Why were your ansestors privilage to more than present day immigrants?

Just answer the question and I can agree to disagree on this issue.

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Sidenote: I was formerly of the AF. I was an Electrical Specialist for the B-2A. Now I am a software engineer for Cerner.

I supose outsourcing has affected me... but not really. We have clients all over the world and so we actually have a building in India that does tech support and some QA testing. My team is giving up 2 slots here for 4 people there. However, the biggest reason for this is not because they're cheaper... Because of the industry (Healthcare) we need 24-hour support. The time skew between us and India allows them to take calls and provide support during our night hours so we dont' have to work 24hrs or be on call every night.

I'm sure it is more difficult for Mexicans to immigrate. But that doesn't mean we should make it easier. The requirements are the same for everyone as it should be. If we make it easier for them to gain citizenship, then shouldn't we make it easier for them to get jobs they otherwise wouldn't be able to get? We can't just make exceptions for people because things are too hard for them.

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OK... so we've been arguing this for a while and I'd like to know some specifics:

What is it about the naturalization process that is soooo difficult for mexicans? I'd like very specific examples.

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I don't know, Hokie. Bet ebrown does, though.

Anyway it's my common knowledge understanding that is quite time consuming, especially considering the relatively few US consulates in Mexico and other Latin American countries. Also, I understand from Dag's frustrating experiences that there are way more applications than open slots. It becomes something of a lottery. As you know, common knowledge sometimes has little to do with fact, but I'm not so passionate on the subject as to do any real research.

There is one point I'm fairly sure of. The applicant for resident alien status does need to have a potential employer that has an opening for him or her. Now, in the business I'm associated with, we don't know what openings are going to exist 6 months down the road. Heck, we don't know what's going to be available next Monday. This is the oil & gas well servicing business, and the turnover runs over 50% per year. The present system may work for labor contractors in the agriculture segment, but not in many other segments. This is something that should be addressed if and when another immigration bill is proposed.

To be clear, I am against illegal immigration and undocumented workers. I'm just not satisfied with the present system, and I am very unsatisfied with the position that an employer is put into when dealling with INS, SS Admin, and IRS. There seem to be some fairly big contradictions in requirments from these three agencies.

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BTW, A closer evaluation of my own stance, I'll admit I'm not pro-illegal immigration. I'm for making the process more streamlined (like the problems listed my roger), I'm also for policy change that makes for easier (but uniform) access to entry.

As for everything else, I simply am compassionate towards the immigrant's situation. I'd say compassionate to the degree that I understand why it's worth the risk for them cross illegally. So despite everything else, that's my bottome line.

I don't like undocumented workers ethier. Two reasons. 1) The workers themselves can easily be scammed or even put in slavery (San Diego current event) and 2) US dollers are crossing the border. I'd rather see a worker live domestically and recycle their wages back into the US economy. Both reasons listed are just more reasons in my mind to make immigration easier.

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As for me, all I want to see is that when our government decides on immigration legislation, that it would be handled humanely, fair and reasonably. I'll leave the details up to congress.

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