How long will christians take this???

kate4christ03 wrote:

Augustine said it best "Never judge a philosophy by its abuse"

instead of looking at the evil done by some in the name of christianity, look at the one who founded Christianity. Study Christ's teachings and life...

Amen to that Kate! So wonderful to see you!

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Cobbler wrote:

maporsche wrote:
Islam does not preach violence.
Laveyan Satanism ( The biggest Satanist sect. ) does not preach violence.
Wicca ( The main Witchcrafting religion ) does not preach violence.

You're kidding, right? Islam doesn't preach violence? Uh, then explain how "kill all infidels" (paraphrased) does not qualify as violence please?

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Do you care to point to that portion of the Quran which enjoins Muslims to "kill all infidels," or are you just makin' **** up, as you seem so often to do?

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Arella Mae wrote:

Run 4 fun wrote:
Arella Mae, wouldn't you expect those fruits of the spirit to manifest themselves in physical action as Wandel brought in with James.

Actually Run, I think I just got the point that Wandel was trying to make! And I thank you for pointing it out to me. Yes, I do agree with you there. If we have the fruit of the spirit then, naturally, it would follow that we would have action (works).

Sorry, I misunderstood Wandel!

That's okay, Arella. I may have misunderstood your post as well.

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From About-dot-com, the About-Islam page on Islam and killing infidels.

Omer Iqbal comments on Islam and the killing of infidels.

I'm sure you can find any number of christian and righwing American web sites which will contradict these two examples. If you do, have the courtesy to make sure that they are quoting true suras, which are presented in full, without editing, and which unambiguous advocate offensive warfare to kill infidels (as opposed to killing infidels in self-defense).

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Quote:

"When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful." Sura 9:5

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Setanta wrote:

Do you care to point to that portion of the Quran which enjoins Muslims to "kill all infidels," or are you just makin' **** up, as you seem so often to do?

I said I was paraphrasing, sir. But, just for you, I will gladly post what the Quran says about unbelievers:

Quote:

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

2:244 Fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearer, Knower.

5:33 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.

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Quote:

"When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful." Sura 9:5

Setanta, your post appeared while I was composing the above. I have previously addressed the apologists of that verse here.

Your second reference ends with

Quote:

I hope I have already clarified the issue. There is no doubt that Islam only supports peace and tolerance, and does not oppose freedom of thought.

Are you OK with that??

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I like it better, when such happens later:

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

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I don't have clue what you are on about, Mesquite, you are not quoting me.

As for MOAN's nonsense, i'm sure she rushed off to a right-wing christian site to come up with her evidence.

Her passage begins with Sura 2: ayat 191, and she leaves out the preceeding ayat:

2:190--Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

The passages which MOAN has misquoted (they have been edited), refer to self-defensive warfare, which means she did not meet the standard which i posited.

From IslamCity-dot-com, this English translation of Sura 2: ayat 191 is provided:

2:191--2:191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

Note the crucial perversion of the version which MOAN presented: . . . Such is the reward of disbelievers.; whereas the English translation provided at IslamCity-dot-com renders that passage in a manner much more consistent with the context of self-defense, and specifically ends that ayat with: . . . Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

If MOAN were really being honest, she'd provide her source so that one can determine if there is an anti-Muslim bias at work, or a christian intention to distort the mean of the Quran.

This is the page i have used for Yusuf Ali's translation into English of 2:191

This page at IslamCity-dot-com is the first page of their multi-lingual translation of the Quran. The intelligent reader will note that the text is searchable by name or number of the Sura, and the number of the ayat.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

I like it better, when such happens later:

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

It's not Christians that will be doing this Walter. This is God's judgment, not man's.

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For those who don't know of him, Abdullah Yusuf Ali was a Musim who lived in India, from 1872 to 1953. His translation of the Quran into English is considered one of the two best translations, and he did his translation between 1934 and 1938, after which it was published. Given the date of publication, it cannot reasonably be asserted that Yusuf Ali had in mind any conflict of the West with Islam when he made his translations. The source is reliable.

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Here is a link where you can get any verse of the Quran in all three of the common translations for a side by side comparison:

- Yusuf Ali Translation

- Pickthall Translation

- Shakir Translation

Islam Online

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mesquite wrote:

Quote:
"When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful." Sura 9:5

Setanta, your post appeared while I was composing the above. I have previously addressed the apologists of that verse here.

Your second reference ends with

Quote:
I hope I have already clarified the issue. There is no doubt that Islam only supports peace and tolerance, and does not oppose freedom of thought.

Are you OK with that??

Mesquite sent a PM to clarify what he meant in quoting me, and that what he meant was that he were quoting an author whom i had linked. However, i would point out that i have referred to Sura 2, ayat 190 et sequitur, whereas Omer Iqbal quotes Sura 5, ayat 32--so i still don't understand why Mesquite links to a discussion of verses from the Ninth Sura.

But, for whatever reason he thinks that relevant, he asked if i am "OK" with the contention on the part of Iqbal that Islam only supports peace and freedom. Which provides me the opportunity to explain just why it is that i have joined in a discussion of whether or not Islam is a violent religion.

I know of no religion which does not have a history of violence associated at least with its adherents, for whatever texts adherents may refer to, and that includes Buddhism. But i saw here an opportunity to point something out (if MOAN had continued to object that Islam is violent)--which is that so many christians here will object that christianity ought not to be judged by the actions of people who claim to be christians but who behave violently, asserting that such people are not really christians. However, it is possible to point to verses in the Old Testament which call upon the faithful to slaughter innocents in the name of their boy Jehovah, and for all that christians object that their boy Jesus brings a "new covenant," that boy Jesus was adamant in insisting that he upheld the law--all of the law.

Therefore, it constitutes a contradiction and hypocricy for christians to characterize muslims as violent because just some of them are, and to assert that islamic scripture calls for violence when they have selectively quoted it, and when they ignore violent exhortation in the scriptures which christians assert are divinely inspired.

Sauce for the goose makes sauce for the gander. The ambiguous nature of scripture is such that nearly anything can be justified or excused. The nature of the religiously fervent is such that any objection to the behavior of their co-religionists can be dispensed with by saying: "Oh, he can't be a true _________ (fill in the blank)." If it's true for christians, it holds true for muslims, as well.

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Set that is why i posted Augustine's words......People shoud do a comparative analysis on the lives of Christ and Muhammed...........

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Setanta wrote:

I know of no religion which does not have a history of violence associated at least with its adherents, for whatever texts adherents may refer to, and that includes Buddhism. But i saw here an opportunity to point something out (if MOAN had continued to object that Islam is violent)--which is that so many christians here will object that christianity ought not to be judged by the actions of people who claim to be christians but who behave violently, asserting that such people are not really christians. However, it is possible to point to verses in the Old Testament which call upon the faithful to slaughter innocents in the name of their boy Jehovah, and for all that christians object that their boy Jesus brings a "new covenant," that boy Jesus was adamant in insisting that he upheld the law--all of the law.

Therefore, it constitutes a contradiction and hypocricy for christians to characterize muslims as violent because just some of them are, and to assert that islamic scripture calls for violence when they have selectively quoted it, and when they ignore violent exhortation in the scriptures which christians assert are divinely inspired.

There is a big difference in the religion itself calling for violence and the adherents of the religion resorting to violence that IS NOT called forth by their beliefs. Christianity is based upon JESUS CHRIST, whom was against violence in all forms and manner. HIS teachings DO NOT call for violence from His followers. The Quran, as has been shown to you by previous posts from other posters, DOES call for violence to non-believers. Jesus tells us "to love your enemies and bless those that would persecute you."

There is a distinction that I believe is being overlooked.

Quote:

Sauce for the goose makes sauce for the gander. The ambiguous nature of scripture is such that nearly anything can be justified or excused. The nature of the religiously fervent is such that any objection to the behavior of their co-religionists can be dispensed with by saying: "Oh, he can't be a true _________ (fill in the blank)." If it's true for christians, it holds true for muslims, as well.

I am sorry but that statement is incorrect, sir. Scripture is as it is. It is absolute. Whether man accepts that or not is the question, and obviously, many don't accept it as it is. But breaking God's commands CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED OR EXCUSED except in the minds of man that is. That's just the point. Man DOES justify and excuse it but that doesn't fly with God. (Caps are meant for emphasis only.)

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hi arella:) glad to see ya on here.......

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Quote:

Christianity is based upon JESUS CHRIST, whom was against violence in all forms and manner. HIS teachings DO NOT call for violence from His followers.

Sadly, I don't think that there are many Chrstians who agree with you that Jesus was against all forms of violence.

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Arella Mae wrote:

There is a big difference in the religion itself calling for violence and the adherents of the religion resorting to violence that IS NOT called forth by their beliefs. Christianity is based upon JESUS CHRIST, whom was against violence in all forms and manner. HIS teachings DO NOT call for violence from His followers. The Quran, as has been shown to you by previous posts from other posters, DOES call for violence to non-believers. Jesus tells us "to love your enemies and bless those that would persecute you."

There is a distinction that I believe is being overlooked.

your God calling for violence.
Can a "True Christian" ignore the Old Testament?
Just curious.
P

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MOAN is willfully ignoring the context of the Sura to which she referred, in an edited form, and with a unreliable translation. That Sura calls for self-defense, not offensive violence to non-believers. In particular, she has used a false translation of 2:191, reproting that as: " . . . Such is the reward of disbelievers.". But the English translation of Abdullah Yusuf Ali renders this passage: " . . . Such is the reward of those who suppress faith."--which fits perfectly in the context of self-defense.

But we have an even more perverted claim from MOAN here, one which is typical of her co-religionists. That is to assert that because it is alleged that the putative Jesus was non-violent, then the religion of the followers of the putative Jesus is non-violent.

But several problems arise with that, and all of them are scriptural. One glaring example is Leviticus. An exegesis of the text of Leviticus which asserts that that book predicts the coming of the Messiah, and that the Messiah is Jesus has been crucial in christian theology for almost 2000 years. Yet these same christians will attempt to avoid those embarrassing portions of Leviticus, of which Chapter 20, verse 13 is the most glaring example of the hatred embodied in the Old Testament: If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. The price of homosexuality is to be deah. The entire 20th Chaper of Leviticus deals with human behavior, much of it sexual, and the perverse nature of many of it's injunctions is appalling: 20:18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.--sexual relations with a menstruating woman call for both participants to be ostracized. Ostracism and death, claims that god will make men and women reproductively barren--these are the common penalties which Leviticus outlines for the crimes it declares in Chapter 20.

Christians try to dance around this, claiming that Jesus and his creed are different. Yet they are contradicted by their own scripture. Matthew, Chaper 5, Verses 17 and 18 read: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. This is not some of the law, this is not those portions of the law which will not embarrass present day christians--it is every jot and tittle of the law.

The Old Testament runs red with the blood of innocents, and resounds to the roar of the homicidal maniac Jehovah calling for the blood of "enemies," including women and children, and even the livestock of those he deems unrighteous. Christians like to selectively read the Old Testament, though, and maintain their innocence by claiming that it was superceded by the loving nature of Jesus. But Jesus does not condemn homosexuality, so they have to lean on passages such as the one in Leviticus to spew forth their hatred of homosexuals.

I have no illusions that people like MOAN and other christian supremacists will never acknowledge it--but their religion is as deep-dyed in the blood of innocents as is any other religion. In fact, few religions have ever been as murderous as has christianity. Their excuse will be that "true" christians do not commit such acts, and they will deny that any violent injunctions of the Old Testament applies to them--although they will readily enough quote the Old Testament when it otherwise suits their bigotry.

I see absolutely no difference between christian violence and muslim violence. I no more buy the excuses which christians make for that violence than any offered by the muslims. For all such christians, i have another verse of their beloved scripture:

Matthew, 23:27: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

The canting fundamentalist christians who surround us are the Pharisees of our day.

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How long will christians take this???

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