Not many were Deist, only a very few. I am not convinced that you could document as many as 4 out of over 50 signers as being Deist.
real life wrote:xingu wrote:Our Founding Fathers, some of whom were not Christian but Deist
Not many were Deist, only a very few. I am not convinced that you could document as many as 4 out of over 50 signers as being Deist.
As you probably remember, I have asked for documentation of these types of claims previously, and it has not been forthcoming.
Go on the internet and find them for yourself real. I'm not going to do your homework for you.
real life wrote:Not many were Deist, only a very few. I am not convinced that you could document as many as 4 out of over 50 signers as being Deist.
I could just as easily say that not many were thumpers, or talked of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, only a very few. I could then challenge you to document that they were and what would that prove? What is your point?
What we do know as evidenced by the constitution is that the founders were convinced that in order to protect religious freedom and to guarantee the right to practice ones religion in the manner of their own choosing or even to not practice at all, a secular government was needed.
It is quite evident that if the likes of 123rock had had their way, the First Ammendment to the US Constitution would not exist.
We hold these truths[/b] to be self-evident,
----that all men are created equal,
----that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
----that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
----That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,[/u] deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,
----That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bible thumper (also Bible basher, or Bible Beater) is a derisive term used to describe Christian fundamentalists, or anyone perceived as aggressively pushing their religious beliefs upon those who do not share them. As an insult, its target domain is broad and can often extend to anyone engaged in a public show of religiosity, fundamentalist or not.
You won't find many of the Founders advocating a 'secular' government either. Only a nonsectarian one.
The Founders viewed the purpose of government to be the protection of God given rights. To them, it was unnecessary to prove or explain this. It was self evident.
Quote:We hold these truths to be self-evident,
----that all men are created equal,
----that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
----that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
----That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,
----That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government
xingu wrote:real life wrote:xingu wrote:Our Founding Fathers, some of whom were not Christian but Deist
Not many were Deist, only a very few. I am not convinced that you could document as many as 4 out of over 50 signers as being Deist.
As you probably remember, I have asked for documentation of these types of claims previously, and it has not been forthcoming.
Go on the internet and find them for yourself real. I'm not going to do your homework for you.
Can't find what's not there, xingu.
If there was evidence that the Founders were deists, you would have produced it long ago.
Characterizations of 'many of the Founding Fathers' being deists are inaccurate, and deliberately so in many cases. I see you've toned it down to 'some' , since I've had to point this out several times.
Even 'some' may give a misleading impression. 'Very few' would be more accurately descriptive.
You may find 1 or 2 of the signers qualify as deists, but probably not as many as even 4 out of over 50 would be accurately described as a deist.
Quote:From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bible thumper (also Bible basher, or Bible Beater) is a derisive term used to describe Christian fundamentalists, or anyone perceived as aggressively pushing their religious beliefs upon those who do not share them. As an insult, its target domain is broad and can often extend to anyone engaged in a public show of religiosity, fundamentalist or not.
real life wrote:You won't find many of the Founders advocating a 'secular' government either. Only a nonsectarian one.
They instituted a secular government.
real life wrote:The Founders viewed the purpose of government to be the protection of God given rights. To them, it was unnecessary to prove or explain this. It was self evident.
Quote:We hold these truths to be self-evident,
----that all men are created equal,
----that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
----that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
----That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,
----That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government
that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Distinctly non-biblical terminology.
1. You shall have no other Gods before me.
2. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Perhaps if you use a little common sense you would see the stupidity of your argument.
If you look at your history you will see why freedom of religion is so vital if we want to live in a world free from religious persecution. Have you not heard of the Inquisition? Have you not heard of the Holocaust? Have you not heard of the Teliban?
What kind of America would you want, one run by Biblical law rather than the Constitution? Which Christian religion should dictate God's law, the Catholics, Mormons, SDA, Jehovah's Witness, Southern Baptist?
What do you do with those who use their free will and choose not to believe; behave like God and kill them the way the Catholic reared Hitler, Gobbels and Himmler did the Jews?
The claim is sometimes made that Hitler was a Christian - a Roman Catholic until the day he died. In fact, Hitler rejected Christianity.
The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.
All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
21st October, 1941, midday:
Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
9th April, 1942, dinner:
There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)
27th February, 1942, midday:
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
We have a separation of church and state because of the barbaric nature of religion, especially conservative religion.
Yet you say your God wants this. He hates religious freedom. He want's us to persecute the unbelievers. He must because if you read the Bible he has ordered his "chosen" to slaughter the unbelievers. Even in the Book of Revelation he will cast the unbelievers into the Lake of Fire.
How can anyone look at God in the Bible and call him wise and just when he exhibits his hate, distain and contempt for what we believe is one of the greatest virtues of our nation, allowing people to believe without persecution.
real life wrote:xingu wrote:real life wrote:xingu wrote:Our Founding Fathers, some of whom were not Christian but Deist
Not many were Deist, only a very few. I am not convinced that you could document as many as 4 out of over 50 signers as being Deist.
As you probably remember, I have asked for documentation of these types of claims previously, and it has not been forthcoming.
Go on the internet and find them for yourself real. I'm not going to do your homework for you.
Can't find what's not there, xingu.
If there was evidence that the Founders were deists, you would have produced it long ago.
Characterizations of 'many of the Founding Fathers' being deists are inaccurate, and deliberately so in many cases. I see you've toned it down to 'some' , since I've had to point this out several times.
Even 'some' may give a misleading impression. 'Very few' would be more accurately descriptive.
You may find 1 or 2 of the signers qualify as deists, but probably not as many as even 4 out of over 50 would be accurately described as a deist.
Obviously Real you got yourself hung up on one word; 'some' which at one point you turned into the word 'many'. One can expect this from someone who has no argument to make against what I said and so was left to pick at some petty word and try to change its meaning.
Your a waste of time.
The following is a recapitulation of the salient points in the preceding testimony, given in the words of the witnesses. It is in itself an overwhelming refutation of the claim that Washington was a communicant:
"Gen. Washington never received the communion in the churches of which I am the parochial minister." -- Bishop White.
"On sacramental Sundays, Gen. Washington, immediately after the desk and pulpit services, went out with the greater part of the Congregation." -- Rev. Dr. Abercromble.
"After that, [Dr. Abercrombie's reproof,] upon communion days, he absented himself altogether from the church." -- Rev. Dr. Wilson.
"The General was accustomed, on communion Sundays, to leave the church with her [Nelly Custis], sending the carriage back for Mrs. Washington. " -- Rev. Dr. Beverly Tucker.
"He never was a communicant in them [Dr. White's churches]." -- Rev. Dr. Bird Wilson.
"I find no one who ever communed with him." -- Rev. William Jackson.
"The President was not a communicant." -- Rev. E.D. Neill.
"This [his ceasing to commune] may be admitted and regretted." -- Rev. Jared Sparks.
"There is no reliable evidence that he ever took communion." -- Gen. A.W. Greely.
"There is nothing to show that he was ever a member of the church." -- St. Louis Globe.
"I have never been a communicant." -- Washington, quoted by Dr. Abercrombie.
But if Bishop White cherished a faint hope that Washington had some faith in the religion of Christ, Dr. Abercrombie did not. Long after Washington's death, in reply to Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him as to his illustrious auditor's religious views, Dr. Abercrombie's brief but emphatic answer was:
"Sir, Washington was a Deist."
Washington subscribed to the religious faith of the Enlightenment: like Franklin and Jefferson, he was a Deist.
Or he was riding over to Truro Parish to perform his duties as a vestryman. (A lukewarm Episcopalian, he never took Communion, tended to talk about "Providence" or "Destiny" rather than God, and-was this a statement?-preferring to stand rather than kneel when praying).
His own intimations of mortality prompted a growing concern about his prospects for immortality. Never a deeply religious man, at least in the traditional Christian sense of the term, Washington thought of God as a distant, impersonal force, the presumed wellspring for what he called destiny or providence. Whether or not there was a hereafter, or a heaven where one's soul lived on, struck him as one of those unfathomable mysteries that Christian theologians wasted much ink and energy trying to resolve. The only certain form of persistence was in the memory of succeeding generations, a secular rather than sacred version of immortality, which Washington was determined to influence and, if possible, control as completely as he had controlled the Continental army.
Eventually Washington ordered his doctors to cease their barbarisms and let him go in peace. "Doctor, I die hard," he muttered, "but I am not afraid to go." Then he gave intriguing final instruction to Lear: "I am just going. Have me decently buried, and do not let my body be put in the Vault in less than two days after I am deadÂ…Do you understand me?" Washington believed that several apparently dead people, perhaps including Jesus, had really been buried alive, a fate he wished to avoid. His statement also calls to attention to a missing presence at the deathbed scene: there were no ministers in the room, no prayers uttered, no Christian rituals offering the solace of everlasting life. The inevitable renderings of Washington's death by nineteenth-century artists often added religious symbols to the scene, frequently depicting his body ascending into heaven surrounded by a chorus of angles. The historical evidence suggests that Washington did not think much about heaven or angles; the only place he knew his body was going was into the ground, and as for his soul, its ultimate location was unknowable. He died a Roman stoic rather than a Christian saint.
Note: GW refused to place secular humanists beyond the pale. The "influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure" he acknowledged might make possible a moral life unsupported by religion. In fact GW significantly softened AH's original section to include that concession, but still the thrust was on the necessity for religion as a "support" "pillar" and "prop" for society.
In GW's eyes [as for many of the Founders] the syllogism went something like this:
1. Virtue and morality are necessary for free republican gov.
2. Religion is necessary for virtue and morality.
3. Ergo - religion is necessary for republican government.
GW's attitude is clearly conservative -the church is to be a conserving not a reforming force in society. He looked at it as a bulwark of the American and political order. As Boller notes, these views on the social uses of institutional religion were conventional enough to satisfy most religionists.
As for religious freedom and a secular government;
"If I could have entertained the slightest apprehension that the Constitution framed in the convention, where I had the honor to preside, might possibly endanger the religious rights of any religious society, certainly I would never have placed my signature to it; and, if I could now conceive that the general government might ever be administered as to render liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution." (To the General Committee Representing the United Baptist Churches of Virginia.)
Excerpt from Word of God newsletter [at MV]
"It is becoming increasingly popular by the humanist philosophy of our day, to adamantly affirm that all of our founding fathers were deists and rejected Christianity! Contrary to what modern skeptics say, George Washington was not a deist. He was a firm believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work. We invite any doubter to check the records at Washington's native county, West Moreland, Va., where his last will and testament contains the testimony written by him: Being heartily sorry from the bottom of my heart for my sins past, most humbly desiring forgiveness of the same from Almighty God, my Savior and Redeemer in Whom and bye the merits of Jesus Christ, I trust and believe assuredly to be saved and to have full remission and forgiveness of all my sins."
While the nature of George Washington's religion is a difficult subject and a legitimately debatable issue, I can confidently say the assertions quoted above that Washington was a born again evangelical Christian have absolutely no foundation based on the historical record. The quotation from his will is completely made up [although Martha Washington's will has specific Christian emphasis]. Washington's will simply begins, "In the name of God, amen, I George Washington, citizen of the United StatesÂ…. The quote from John is in fact over Washington's tomb but it was added over 30 years after he died and is not connected with his wishes or instructions in any way whatsoever. The assertions of LaHaye and Kennedy are based on the so-called Washington Prayer book which was "discovered" nearly a century after his death and claimed to be in his handwriting as young man. They are not, and while they might be connected to some family member, they are almost certainly not related in any way to George Washington. Claiming the validity of the prayers as those of GW and then making the leap that these prayers copied when he was a young man expressed Washington's mature faith is essential, because of the undeniable fact that you cannot find anything even vaguely along this line of expression in his mature correspondence.
Now learn to read, and then explain how the US wasn't a Christian nation when we had laws back in the past such as Sunday being the Sabbath, and at one time it was so for even the President as per US law.
My choice would be plain NT Christian, which isn't really a denomination, but more of an interpretation.
Are you going to tell me Stalin was a Christian? His atheism allowed him to kill the millions of people in less than 50 years.
Quote:We have a separation of church and state because of the barbaric nature of religion, especially conservative religion.
So, if Person A claims to follow Philosophy X, but his actions contradict that, he is still a member?
Yes, He'll cast the unbelievers into the Lake of Fire. As for God being against freedom of religion, that's with respect to the Final Judgment. I realize that freedom of religion is needed for here, but your arguments were specifically for God's justice, so don't try to switch topics, or you're really more deluded than I thought.
Hate, disdain, contempt for religious freedom, when all religions can't be true, can they, in the sense that the final judgment is based upon the truth.
Christians have been led to believe that the government of the United States of America is based on the basic principles of Christian morality, which have their origin in the Scriptures. Notable for propagating this misinformation are D. James Kennedy, author of a book promoting astrology, and Peter Marshall, Jr. (son of the late U.S. Senate Chaplain) who wrote The Light and The Glory. However, both of these ministers are members of the Council for National Policy, a secret organization founded by the globalist Council on Foreign Relations which has an anti-Christian agenda.
Historical evidence militates against the view that those who formulated the fundamental documents of American government were Christians. To the contrary, not a few who wrote and signed the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation and the U. S. Constitution were Deists, Theists and Freemasons.
Well, xingu, as expected you brought out a lot of OTHER people's opinion that Washington must have been a Deist, but NO evidence of Washington ever making that claim. Not surprising.
Well, xingu, as expected you brought out a lot of OTHER people's opinion that Washington must have been a Deist, but NO evidence of Washington ever making that claim. Not surprising.
He never said he was a Christian either. So we have to look at his behavior. He never received communion. Dr. Abercrombie was convinced he was a Deist.
Can you provide some information on this Setanta?
xingu wrote:He never said he was a Christian either. So we have to look at his behavior. He never received communion. Dr. Abercrombie was convinced he was a Deist.
Dr. Abercrombie may have been right that Washington was philosophically a theist. However, i seriously question that you have a reliable source to the effect that Washington never received communion--do you suggest that vestryman in the Episcopal Church would never receive communion? I find such a contention suspect. You say that we should look at his behavior. That he was a vestryman in Truro parish is beyond question--it is a matter of verifiable, written records. I can think of few absurdities greater than a contention that a man who never received communion in the Episcopal Church would be chosen to the vestry of his local parish. Your argument that he never pronounced himself a Christian is awfully feeble.
Quote:Can you provide some information on this Setanta?
I think i've responded adequately. Once again, Washington might have philosophically a deist--but i know of no reliable source which could claim that with unimpeachable certainty. It is a matter of public record that he participated in the vestry of the Truro parish of the Episcopal Church in Virginia. As far as i can see, that unquestionably makes him a Christian.
