Bush Supporters' Aftermath Thread IV

mysteryman wrote:

And 1441 mentions 661,678,686,687,688,707,715,986,1284,and all the relevant statements of its President.

So,1441 did specifically mention 678.

Exactly, mysteryman. But it doesn't authorize Member States to use all necessary means to enforce either Resolution 678, Resolution 686, Resolution 687, Resolution 688, Resolution 707, Resolution 715, Resolution 986, Resolution 1284 or Resolution 1441.

And obviously, Resolution 678 could not authorize Member States to use all necessary means to enforce Resolution 686, Resolution 687, Resolution 688, Resolution 707, Resolution 715, Resolution 986, Resolution 1284 or Resolution 1441, as it was issued prior to those Resolutions and specifically mentions the Resolutions that could be enforced using all necessary means.

mentioning a prior resolution that did authorize Member States to use all necessary means Not Equal

authorizing Member States to use all necessary means

Not a difficult concept, really.

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mysteryman wrote:

You do realize that 678 was written several years BEFORE 1441,dont you?
How can it mention another resolution that hadnt even been written or thought of yet?

Exactly my point. Resolution 678 specifically mentions the resolutions that could be enforced using all means necessary. Resolution 678 obviously doesn't include Resolution 1441. And obviously, Resolution 678 doesn't authorize Member Nations to use all means necessary to enforce Resolution 1441.

In fact, there was never a resolution that authorized Member Nations to use all means necessary to enforce Resolution 1441.

Which has been my point from the beginning.

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old europe wrote:

mysteryman wrote:
You notice it said ALL SUBSEQUENT RESOLUTIONS.
That included 1441.

Please point out to me where it mentions Resolution 1441 in that list, mysteryman, or alternatively admit that your statement was mistaken.

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old europe wrote:

mysteryman wrote:
You do realize that 678 was written several years BEFORE 1441,dont you?
How can it mention another resolution that hadnt even been written or thought of yet?

Exactly my point. Resolution 678 specifically mentions the resolutions that could be enforced using all means necessary. Resolution 678 obviously doesn't include Resolution 1441. And obviously, Resolution 678 doesn't authorize Member Nations to use all means necessary to enforce Resolution 1441.

In fact, there was never a resolution that authorized Member Nations to use all means necessary to enforce Resolution 1441.

But 1441 DOES allow all neccessary force to be used to enforce the previous resolutions,all mentioned in 1441.

Which has been my point from the beginning.

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Good luck MM. I'm giving up. Either our esteemed friend is too dense to see the absurdity of his obfusications or he really can't grasp the content of the UN resolutions. At any rate I'm pretty tired of having demand after demand after demand for proofs, explanations, retractions, admissions, etc. etc. etc. when he does not feel compelled to reciprocate.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Good luck MM. I'm giving up. Either our esteemed friend is too dense to see the absurdity of his obfusications or he really can't grasp the content of the UN resolutions. At any rate I'm pretty tired of having demand after demand after demand for proofs, explanations, retractions, admissions, etc. etc. etc. when he does not feel compelled to reciprocate.

talk about dense!

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Thursday March 13, 2003
Guardian Unlimited

Is war illegal without a second UN resolution?
The prohibition of the use of force is a foundational rule of international law. Only two exceptions are permitted: the use of force in self-defence, or with the express authorisation of the UN security council exercising its powers under chapter VII of the UN charter.

Iraq has not attacked the US, the UK or their allies, nor is there any evidence that it is about to do so. Force may only be used in self-defence in response to an actual or (according to some commentators) an imminent armed attack. Therefore any arguments based on self-defence fail. What the US national security strategy has advocated are pre-emptive attacks on countries which may threaten the US. The use of armed force in such circumstances is contrary to international law.

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old europe wrote:

old europe wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
You notice it said ALL SUBSEQUENT RESOLUTIONS.
That included 1441.

Please point out to me where it mentions Resolution 1441 in that list, mysteryman, or alternatively admit that your statement was mistaken.

"ALL SUBSEQUENT RESOLUTIONS" is pretty specific to me.
That means ALL resolutions concerning the matter at hand,in this case Iraq.

Do you want a soothsayer working at the UN,to make sure they can have the correct number for a resolution written 5 years from now?

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mysteryman wrote:

old europe wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
You do realize that 678 was written several years BEFORE 1441,dont you?
How can it mention another resolution that hadnt even been written or thought of yet?

Exactly my point. Resolution 678 specifically mentions the resolutions that could be enforced using all means necessary. Resolution 678 obviously doesn't include Resolution 1441. And obviously, Resolution 678 doesn't authorize Member Nations to use all means necessary to enforce Resolution 1441.

In fact, there was never a resolution that authorized Member Nations to use all means necessary to enforce Resolution 1441.

But 1441 DOES allow all neccessary force to be used to enforce the previous resolutions,all mentioned in 1441.

Which has been my point from the beginning.

mysteryman, here is a link to the UN Resolutions of 1990, including Resolution 678:

http://www.un.org/Docs/scres/1990/scres90.htm

And here is the paragraph that authorizes Member Nations to use all necessary means:

Quote:

2. Authorizes Member States co-operating with the Government of Kuwait, unless Iraq on or before 15 January 1991 fully implements, as set forth in paragraph 1 above, the above-mentioned resolutions, to use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 (1990) and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the area;

Now, you claim that Resolution 1441 likewise authorizes Member States to use all means necessary. Therefore, I ask you to please cite the paragraph in UN Resolution 1441 that authorizes Member States to use all necessary means.

Thank you.

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Is the War on Iraq Lawful?
By MICHAEL C. DORF

Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003

As of this writing, American and British forces are poised to attack Iraq.
Questions of military strategy, geopolitics and morality loom large, but so
do questions of law.

Is the war to disarm and dislodge Saddam Hussein justified under
international law? Has it been adequately authorized under U.S. law, with
proper Congressional approval?

It is doubtful that any court will ever address either question, but that
may provide all the more reason to consider these issues in the court of
public opinion.

The International Law Issue: Three Possible Grounds for War

Under international law, force is authorized in essentially two or, at most,
three circumstances.

First, Articles 39 and 42 of the U.N. Charter permit the Security Council to
"determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or
act of aggression" and to authorize the use of force "to maintain or restore
international peace and security."

Second, Article 51 of the U.N. Charter recognizes "the inherent right of
individual or collective self-defence" against "an armed attack."

Third, an international norm may be emerging that would permit nations to
use military force to prevent genocide or other humanitarian catastrophes.
However, while Saddam Hussein has, in the past, committed horrific acts
against his own people, the U.S. has not argued that intervention is
necessary to address ongoing crimes against humanity.

Do either of the first two grounds - based on U.N. Charter provisions -
justify war?

U.N. Security Council Authorization: The First Possible Ground For War

In his March 17 speech, President Bush claimed that prior U.N. resolutions
have already provided the necessary legal authority for attacking Iraq.
Speaking for the Blair Administration, British Attorney General Lord
Goldsmith made the same point. Are they correct? The answer is no.

In November 1990, the U.N. Security Council adopted Resolution 678,
authorizing nations "co-operating with the Government of Kuwait . . . to use
all necessary means" of dislodging Saddam Hussein's troops from Kuwait.

This resolution authorized force only for the purpose of driving the Iraqi
military out of Kuwait, an objective which was fully accomplished by 1991.
It would be arguably relevant now only if Saddam reinvaded Kuwait.

Then, at the conclusion of the Gulf War, the Security Council adopted
Resolution 687. It called for, among other things, Iraq's destruction and
renunciation of various weapons, including biological, chemical and nuclear
arms. And it stated the Security Council's intention "to take as appropriate
all necessary measures" to guarantee the inviolability of the Iraq-Kuwait
border. Although that language is broad, it does not refer to the
disarmament provisions. Resolution 687 makes clear that its disarmament
provisions are governed by the Security Council's resolve "to remain seized
of the matter and to take such further steps as may be required for the
implementation of the present resolution and to secure peace and security in
the area."

That last statement hardly reads as a blank check to any Security Council
member or other state to act on its own to require Iraq's disarmament.
Instead, it suggests, quite to the contrary, that the Security Council
itself, acting via additional resolutions, could take "further steps."

Last November, the Security Council passed Resolution 1441. It warned that
Iraq would "face serious consequences" if it were to remain in "material
breach" of its disarmament obligations. Employing the Resolution's language,
the Bush Administration has argued that Iraq is in "material breach" and
that war is thus justified.

However, as I explained in an earlier column, Resolution 1441 implies that
the Security Council itself will decide if a material breach has occurred,
and expressly states that the Security Council itself, in the event of such
a breach, will "consider the situation and the need for full compliance with
all of the relevant Council resolutions in order to secure international
peace and security."

We know that the Security Council does not think that a serious breach
warranting all-out war has occurred. Perhaps the Security Council, under
veto threat from France (and possibly Russia as well), has behaved
unreasonably and irresponsibly in this respect, as suggested by American and
British diplomats. But if so, that still does not alter the fact that the
Security Council did not authorize war. At most, it bolsters the moral case
for war, not the legal case.

Self-Defense: The Second Possible Ground for War

The boldest argument for war is that the United States and other countries
face the prospect of an "armed attack" by Iraq, thus justifying the
sovereign right to use force in self-defense. But certainly Iraq was not
about to invade the United States or even Kuwait, where thousands of
American and British troops have patrolled the border since the Gulf War.
Nor have Bush and Blair pointed to any information indicating an imminent
threat; instead, they have rested their arguments primarily on the fear of
Saddam's future direct or indirect use of weapons of mass destruction.

Thus, the argument for self-defense must be based on an expansion of that
concept - from self-defense as repelling an ongoing or imminent attack, to
self-defense as pre-emption of a feared future attack.

Under the pre-emption doctrine, touted by the Bush Administration, an enemy
that is in the process of acquiring weapons of mass destruction can be
attacked before using those weapons. The underlying concern is no doubt a
serious one. The Bush doctrine, however, remains outside of international
law and could potentially prove quite dangerous.

Self-defense, as it traditionally has been understood under international
law, is very much like self-defense in the law governing individuals. If an
aggressor is in the midst of, or just about to, attack, one need not absorb
the first blow before fighting back. The attack, however, must be imminent,
if not already underway.

The imminence requirement is extremely important in international affairs.
If the U.S. can take non-Security-Council authorized pre-emptive or
preventive military action, then other countries can as well. Thus, regional
powers fearing the rise of neighboring rivals could decide that it is better
to act against their future enemies before the threat fully materializes.

Not every invocation of the doctrine of pre-emption will be justified. Some
will be based on misjudgments, and others will simply be pretextual -
justifying aggression under the guise of pre-emption. Ultimately, the
doctrine allowing pre-emption of long-term threats has the potential to be
enormously destabilizing.

Was War Constitutionally Authorized by Congress?

The international law arguments in favor of the war's legality, then, are
weak at best. What about the war's legality as a matter of U.S. law? There,
the question is closer.

The U.S. Constitution sets no limits on the reasons for which the United
States may go to war. Its primary limit is procedural. While the President
is the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces, Congress alone has the power
to declare war.

Congress has not formally declared war since World War II. As I explained in
an earlier column, the failure to issue formal declarations of war partly
reflects the fact that such declarations are antiquated. But Congressional
equivocation also reflects Congressional ambivalence. Members of Congress do
not want to have to take the heat for a war that goes badly, but they also
want to appear supportive of our troops. Thus, they have a built-in
incentive to sit on the fence.

Judged by the standards of recent American military actions, Congress
provided President Bush with crystal clear authority to make war on Iraq. In
October 2002, Congress passed a joint resolution authorizing the President
"to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be
necessary and appropriate in order to (1) defend the national security of
the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and (2)
enforce all United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq."

The constitutional problem with the Congressional authorization, if there is
one, is not lack of clarity; it's that Congress passed the buck. A number of
commentators and even some individual members of Congress have argued that
Congress may not delegate to the President the power to declare war. The
Constitution, on this view, puts the power to declare war in the hands of
Congress so that members of Congress -- who must stand for frequent
re-election -- will make the hard decisions themselves.

This objection would be a good one if Congress had delegated something
approximating its entire warmaking power to the President. But under the
circumstances, the delegation appears reasonable. If one believed that
Saddam would only disarm under military pressure, then to make the threat of
war credible, Congress had to delegate power to the President. It would have
been premature for Congress actually to declare war back in October, before
further planned diplomatic efforts were undertaken. The Constitution is best
interpreted to permit Congress to use this type of carrot-and-stick tactic.

There is one further wrinkle under U.S. law. Article VI of the U.S.
Constitution makes treaties into which the U.S. has entered "the supreme Law
of the Land." The United States is a signatory to the U.N. Charter, and as
discussed above, under the Charter, there is no clear legal authority for
war on Iraq. Accordingly, if the war violates international law - as I have
suggested it does - then it also thereby violates U.S. law.

That is not to say that any court will entertain a challenge to military
action. U.S. courts have long treated such questions as committed to the
political branches. And it is clear that Congress and the President have
made their decision.

Does the Lawfulness of War Matter?

In the end, the question of whether war on Iraq is legally justified is less
important than whether it is morally and practically justified. If the U.S.
and its allies prevail in a relatively quick war with minimal loss of life,
if further evidence of Saddam's malevolent intent surfaces, and if the Iraqi
people welcome allied forces as liberators rather than conquerors, then
quibbles about legality may be overlooked.

Nonetheless, one impact of a war of dubious lawfulness may be the continued
erosion of respect for the United States as a nation committed to principles
of justice under law. President Bush says that he is justified in using
military might because his cause is just. To much of the rest of the world,
however, it looks the other way around: that the U.S. and its allies act as
they wish because, in the American view, might makes right.

In that respect, a bit of ancient history may be relevant. In Chapter
Seventeen of his History of the Peloponnesian War (between Athens and Sparta
in the Fifth Century B.C.), Thucydides recounted the reaction of the people
of the small neutral island state of Melos to the invading Athenian navy.
Before attacking Melos, the Athenians gave the Melians an opportunity to
surrender. The Melians attempted to persuade the Athenians to leave them
alone. According to Thucydides, the Athenians would have none of it.
Questions of justice arise only among equals, the Athenians said, while the
strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must.

The Melians refused to surrender; the Athenians prevailed militarily; they
killed the adult Melian males; and they sold the women and children into
slavery. But ultimately with aid from Persia (modern-day Iran), Sparta
defeated and conquered Athens, which never regained its glory.

Even as we hope that President Bush can bring the spirit of Athenian
democracy to the cradle of civilization, we may fear that he has forged a
different, and darker, connection to ancient Athens.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Michael C. Dorf is Professor of Law at Columbia University.

Copyright © 1994-2001 FindLaw

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20030319.html

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mysteryman wrote:

old europe wrote:
old europe wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
You notice it said ALL SUBSEQUENT RESOLUTIONS.
That included 1441.

Please point out to me where it mentions Resolution 1441 in that list, mysteryman, or alternatively admit that your statement was mistaken.

"ALL SUBSEQUENT RESOLUTIONS" is pretty specific to me.
That means ALL resolutions concerning the matter at hand,in this case Iraq.

Apparently, you're completely unable to read. It doesn't say ALL SUBSEQUENT RESOLUTIONS. If you're claiming that Resolution 678 authorizes the use of all means necessary for ALL SUBSEQUENT RESOLUTIONS, you're simply lying.

It says RESOLUTION 660 (1990) AND ALL SUBSEQUENT RELEVANT RESOLUTIONS, and it specifically mentions all RELEVANT subsequent resolutions to Resolution 660 (1990).

We don't have to guess which resolutions are concerned. It's right there:

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old europe wrote:

mysteryman wrote:
old europe wrote:
old europe wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
You notice it said ALL SUBSEQUENT RESOLUTIONS.
That included 1441.

Please point out to me where it mentions Resolution 1441 in that list, mysteryman, or alternatively admit that your statement was mistaken.

"ALL SUBSEQUENT RESOLUTIONS" is pretty specific to me.
That means ALL resolutions concerning the matter at hand,in this case Iraq.

Apparently, you're completely unable to read. It doesn't say ALL SUBSEQUENT RESOLUTIONS. If you're claiming that Resolution 678 authorizes the use of all means necessary for ALL SUBSEQUENT RESOLUTIONS, you're simply lying.

It says RESOLUTION 660 (1990) AND ALL SUBSEQUENT RELEVANT RESOLUTIONS, and it specifically mentions all RELEVANT subsequent resolutions to Resolution 660 (1990).

We don't have to guess which resolutions are concerned. It's right there:

And there is the problem.

You are talking about 678,and I am talkin about 1441.

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mysteryman wrote:

And there is the problem.

You are talking about 678,and I am talkin about 1441.

Okay, got it.

So again, here is the paragraph in Resolution 678 that authorizes Member Nations to use all necessary means:

Quote:

2. Authorizes Member States co-operating with the Government of Kuwait, unless Iraq on or before 15 January 1991 fully implements, as set forth in paragraph 1 above, the above-mentioned resolutions, to use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 (1990) and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the area;

Now please cite the paragraph in UN Resolution 1441 that authorizes Member States to use all necessary means.

Thank you.

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I am betting that OE has already read the resolution in question and knows that it doesn't say, "to use all necessary means."

But even if it did, that does not mean that member states can just break out on their own and fulfill that resolution without another vote among all parties of the security counsel.

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Actually, resolution 1441 expressis verbis

Quote:

[recalls] that its resolution 678 (1990) authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to resolution 660 (1990) and to restore international peace and security in the area,

Fullstop.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Actually, resolution 1441 expressis verbis
Quote:
[recalls] that its resolution 678 (1990) authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to resolution 660 (1990) and to restore international peace and security in the area,

Fullstop.

Oh

But still does that mean the US and the other "coalition of the willing" could just break out and fulfill that resolution on their own without another vote?

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revel wrote:

Oh

oe didn't say differently: he even copied resolution 678

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

revel wrote:

Oh

oe didn't say differently: he even copied resolution 678

Never mind, apparently I am crossed up somewhere on all that.

However, I still want to know if in fact the resolution did say use any means necessary, does that mean any members states can just go out on their own to fulfill that resolution without another vote or some kind declaration from the key member states?

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Such issue is discussed in the Council, usually/normally I think.

Before and after action was taken.

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The UN was given 12 weeks to deal with the petition of the USA and Britain to deal with Iraq. They refused to pass a resolution either in favor of or against an invasion. It was worded more diplomatically to the UN, but in our President's words, the US and Britain advised the UN to deal with Saddam or we would. Giving your opponent 12 weeks to prepare for war (and hide WMD for that matter) is ample time I think and to give additional time would be quite irresponsible.

According to what I've read and heard from Tommy Franks and others is that the decision was made to go ahead without a UN resolution lest those who are not our friends were able to push one through at some point which would force us to act against the UN.

But nobody with any intellectual honesty can say that we did not try very very hard to get the UN to enforce is own mandates.

How many "do this or else" UN resolution have to be passed and ignored before even the most radical Left wingnuts can see the futility in that?

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Bush Supporters' Aftermath Thread IV

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