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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jun, 2007 02:24 pm
That the Bush administration continues to "hide" this information from the general public, one has to wonder why anyone would want to trust Bushco. He can't even be upfront and honest about what's going on, and he keeps telling us "success is the only option in Iraq."

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see he's bankrupting our country, and making all of us less safe.

Who are the ding-dongs who continue to support this madman?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jun, 2007 02:30 pm
U.S.: 60 pct of Baghdad not controlled Wasn't this a foregone conclusion before we sent the 30,000 more troops?
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jun, 2007 08:55 am
Blair knew US had no post-war plan for Iraq
Blair knew US had no post-war plan for Iraq
Nicholas Watt, political editor
Sunday June 17, 2007
The Observer

Tony Blair agreed to commit British troops to battle in Iraq in the full knowledge that Washington had failed to make adequate preparations for the postwar reconstruction of the country.

In a devastating account of the chaotic preparations for the war, which comes as Blair enters his final full week in Downing Street, key No 10 aides and friends of Blair have revealed the Prime Minister repeatedly and unsuccessfully raised his concerns with the White House.

He also agreed to commit troops to the conflict even though President George Bush had personally said Britain could help 'some other way'.
The disclosures, in a two-part Channel 4 documentary about Blair's decade in Downing Street, will raise questions about Blair's public assurances at the time of the war in 2003 that he was satisfied with the post-war planning. In one of the most significant interviews in the programme, Peter Mandelson says that the Prime Minister knew the preparations were inadequate but said he was powerless to do more.

'Obviously more attention should have been paid to what happened after, to the planning and what we would do once Saddam had been toppled,' Mandelson tells The Observer's chief political commentator, Andrew Rawnsley, who presents the documentary.

'But I remember him saying at the time: "Look, you know, I can't do everything. That's chiefly America's responsibility, not ours."' Mandelson then criticises his friend: 'Well, I'm afraid that, as we now see, wasn't good enough.'.

Opponents of the war, who have long claimed that the Pentagon planned a short, sharp offensive to overthrow Saddam Hussein with little thought of the consequences, claimed last night that the programme vindicated their criticisms. Sir Menzies Campbell, the Liberal Democrat leader, told The Observer: 'These frank admissions that the Prime Minister was aware of the inadequacies of the preparations for post-conflict Iraq are a devastating indictment.'

Blair's most senior foreign affairs adviser at the time of the war makes clear that Blair was 'exercised' on the exact issue raised by the war's opponents. Sir David Manning, now Britain's ambassador to Washington, says: 'It's hard to know exactly what happened over the post-war planning. I can only say that I remember the PM raising this many months before the war began. He was very exercised about it.'

Manning reveals that Blair was so concerned that he sent him to Washington in March 2002, a full year before the invasion. Manning recalls: 'The difficulties the Prime Minister had in mind were particularly, how difficult was this operation going to be? If they did decide to intervene, what would it be like on the ground? How would you do it? What would the reaction be if you did it, what would happen on the morning after?

'All these issues needed to be thrashed out. It wasn't to say that they weren't thinking about them, but I didn't see the evidence at that stage that these things had been thoroughly rehearsed and thoroughly thought through.'

On his return to London, Manning wrote a highly-critical secret memo to Blair. 'I think there is a real risk that the [Bush] administration underestimates the difficulties,' it said. 'They may agree that failure isn't an option, but this does not mean that they will avoid it.'

Within a year Britain lost any hope of a proper reconstruction in Iraq when post-war planning was handed to the Pentagon at the beginning of 2003.

Sir Jeremy Greenstock, Britain's envoy to the postwar administration in Baghdad, confirms that Blair was in despair. 'There were moments of throwing his hands in the air: "What can we do?" He was tearing his hair over some of the deficiencies.' The failure to prepare meant that Iraq quickly fell apart. Greenstock adds: 'I just felt it was slipping away from us really, from the beginning. There was no security force controlling the streets. There was no police force to speak of.'

The revelation that Blair was 'exercised' in private will raise questions about his public assurances. The former Labour leader, Neil Kinnock, told the programme he was given a personal assurance by Blair that he was satisfied by the preparations. 'I said to Tony, are you certain?' Kinnock told the programme. 'And when he said: "I'm sure," that was a good enough reassurance.'

Condoleezza Rice, then Bush's national security adviser, confirms that the President offered Blair a way out. Bush told Blair: 'Perhaps there's some other way that Britain can be involved.' Blair replied: 'No, I'm with you.'
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jun, 2007 02:37 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican is blind and ignorant; he can't see the increase in violence and deaths for every year we are in Iraq. His only responses are ad hominems without addressing the issues presented. Crawl back into your cave, ican, if you can't address the posts directly rather than general statements such as "stupid malarkey!"

STUPID MALARKEY!

Your post is stupid malarkey and AD HOMINEMS. Specifically:

1. "ican is blind and ignorant;"

2. "[ican] can't see the increase in violence and deaths for every year we are in Iraq."

3. "His only responses are ad hominems without addressing the issues presented."

4. "Crawl back into your cave, ican, if you can't address the posts directly rather than general statements such as "stupid malarkey."


Obviously, cicerone imposter, your post criticises me for exactly what your post actually does. Some might call that hypocrisy. I don't! I call it fraud! I think calling it fraud is more accurate in this case.

By the way, generally when I call a statement or a post stupid malarkey, I give my reasons for thinkng so. In the case of your stupid malarkey, you accuse the Iraqi people of an inability to govern themselves because of their 1000 year history of sectarian violence. Most of today's civilized self-governing groups also had to evolve from such histories. I think it stupid to think that the Iraqi people cannot also recover from a long history of sectarian violence once the primary perpetrators, al-Qaeda, are exterminated.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jun, 2007 02:56 pm
ican: In the case of your stupid malarkey, you accuse the Iraqi people of an inability to govern themselves because of their 1000 year history of sectarian violence.

ican, There's a big difference between "govern themselves" and their "1000 year history of sectarian violence." I know you don't know the difference, but the current government of Iraq has no influence or mandate by its own government. Most people see them as a puppet to the Bush regime. They are so splintered, it makes most other governments look organized. As for Iraq's 1000 year history of sectarian violence, that's what happened after Bush's war removed Saddam from power, and getting rid of the Bath Party. There will never be peace as long as the three different sects of Iraq continue to kill each other, and destroy their mosques. That's completely a separate issue from the current government of Iraq. You are stupid, and there's no cure for it - unfortunately.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jun, 2007 03:05 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
That the Bush administration continues to "hide" this information from the general public, one has to wonder why anyone would want to trust Bushco. He can't even be upfront and honest about what's going on, and he keeps telling us "success is the only option in Iraq."

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see he's bankrupting our country, and making all of us less safe.

Who are the ding-dongs who continue to support this madman?

The primary argument is not over whether or not Bush is trustworthy, or is a madman, or is an incompetent or a fraud, or all of these.

Nor is the primary argument whether or not what we are doing now in Iraq is working or not working.

The primary argument is over whether or not it is in the USA's security interest to abandon Iraq now and not continue to find a way to secure Iraq from the horrors perpetrated by its terrorist jihad nut cases.

Some allege that the security problems in Iraq are not solvable by us and do not affect our own security one way or the other.

Some allege that our presence in Iraq is the cause of all the security problems in Iraq.

Some allege that whatever results from our departure from Iraq before Iraq is stabilized, can be no worse than what is happening to us now.

Others allege that what is likely to result from our departure from Iraq before Iraq is stabilized, will be much worse than what is happening to us now.

Still others allege that failure to exterminate the al-Qaeda confederation in the middle east will prove disasterous for western civilization.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jun, 2007 03:13 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican: In the case of your stupid malarkey, you accuse the Iraqi people of an inability to govern themselves because of their 1000 year history of sectarian violence.

ican, There's a big difference between "govern themselves" and their "1000 year history of sectarian violence." I know you don't know the difference, but the current government of Iraq has no influence or mandate by its own government. Most people see them as a puppet to the Bush regime. They are so splintered, it makes most other governments look organized. As for Iraq's 1000 year history of sectarian violence, that's what happened after Bush's war removed Saddam from power, and getting rid of the Bath Party. There will never be peace as long as the three different sects of Iraq continue to kill each other, and destroy their mosques. That's completely a separate issue from the current government of Iraq. You are stupid, and there's no cure for it - unfortunately.

Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jun, 2007 03:37 pm
ican: The primary argument is over whether or not it is in the USA's security interest to abandon Iraq now and not continue to find a way to secure Iraq from the horrors perpetrated by its terrorist jihad nut cases.


Wrong again! the primary argument now is to get our troops home in an orderly manner. This is what the majority of Americans want, and not getting from Bush.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jun, 2007 03:43 pm
Soldier writes:
U.S. needs to withdraw from Iraq

by Phillip Aliff

On May 1, 2003, George W. Bush declared the end of hostilities in Iraq and claimed a victory in the war on terror. Since then, we have seen the assaults on Fallujah, Ramadi, Tal Afar, Najaf, Baghdad, and significant other combat operations around the country. We have seen the pictures and heard the stories of the atrocities committed at Abu Ghraib Prison, and in Haditha. We have seen attempts to separate neighborhoods with concrete walls that stand between families and workplaces. We have seen the total destruction of the Iraqi infrastructure to include its water supply and electricity. We have seen, in some reports, upwards of 500,000 Iraqi citizens who have died.

Yet being faced with the truth that the war is going terribly, there are still people who believe that the U.S. should stay the course. So what does this harmful strategy mean in terms of the effect on service members? Since Bush's announcement in 2003, 3,328 service members have died in Iraq as of this writing. The military is in a state of crisis because morale and discipline have been eroding since the war began. The military reported 22 "self-inflicted" deaths during 2006 in Iraq. There were 3,196 reported desertions during 2006 with the number rising significantly each year. There is also the issue of troops coming home with significant injuries such as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and Traumatic Brain Injury and being turned away by the Department Of Defense and the VA. This has meant that troops who are suffering from significant mental health problems are being given a rifle and being sent back into combat for second, third, or even fourth deployments. The Army is also having such a hard time with the rate of deployments that they have implemented a back-door draft called "stop-loss" that holds soldiers against their will for extended periods of time after their contract expires.

Service members are not taking lightly the war spiraling out of control. According to a 2006 Zogby International poll, only one out of five troops want to stay "as long as needed." Forty-two percent say that the role of the U.S. is "hazy." Seventy-two percent of troops polled in Iraq said that the U.S. should exit the country within one year. So the overwhelming majority of troops are feeling disillusioned about the war in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jun, 2007 03:50 pm
ican, Do you have any understanding of how a soldier feels being kept on active duty against their will - and beyond their "contract?" Probalby not; there's no cure for stupid.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jun, 2007 04:25 pm
Residents emerge after Baghdad lockdown By HAMZA HENDAWI, Associated Press Writer
41 minutes ago



BAGHDAD - Residents emerged from their homes Sunday at the end of a four-day lockdown and found themselves caught in traffic spawned by hundreds of new police and army checkpoints.

Many wondered if the extra security and the curfew imposed after last week's bombing of a major Shiite shrine had only created inconvenience and delayed an inevitable explosion of revenge attacks.

"The militias will still take revenge, today or tomorrow," said agricultural materials merchant Nasser Ali Jaber, a 56-year-old Shiite father of three.

The bombing of the Askariya shrine north of Baghdad was the second there in 16 months. The first, which destroyed the glistening golden dome, unleashed a torrent of Shiite-Sunni violence that continues to this day.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jun, 2007 07:26 pm
saturday's "globe & mail" had a rather thought-provoking article by doug saunders .
he suggests that in order to achieve peace in the middle-east you have to allow the factions to slug it out first WITHOUT showing the slightest bit
of prejudice towards any one party .
he refers two speeches recently given by british "peacemakers" that suggest a different process is needed to get the feuding parties to come to the table and be willing to make peace .
(it actually reminds me of what a jewish friend told me years ago . he said : "peace between israel and the palestinians will only occur when both parties are so exhausted that they'll both plead for peace" .)

DO YOU THINK THAT IT MIGHT BE A USEFUL SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEMS IN THE MIDDLE-EAST ?
imo it would be worth it since the current policies have not worked and only resulted in more bloodshed .
hbg

Quote:
A four-point guide to the dirty job of nation building



By DOUG SAUNDERS

Saturday, June 16, 2007 - Page F3



LONDON -- They were among the most edible words ever uttered. "I don't think our troops ought to be used for what's called nation building," the Republican candidate for the U.S. presidency declared on Oct. 11, 2000. Exactly 11 months later, his country would fall victim to an attack directly caused by the world's gross failure to intervene and "nation-build." He soon reversed himself.

By now, a lot of us would agree with George W. Bush's original words. Peace and unity seem distant in Afghanistan, and even more so in Iraq. We have dumped countless billions of dollars and years of effort into the Middle East, but both Israel and the Arab territories have reached their lowest ebb in recent weeks. And the resulting ennui seems to have deprived us of the will to take action where it's really needed, notably in Sudan.

So it was a surprise this week to hear veterans of two of the world's most endless and impossible disputes declaring, in some detail, that it's still worth the effort to plunge into conflicts that aren't our own and try to set things right.

Peter Hain is Britain's Northern Ireland secretary. It has been a good year: The two leaders of that province's extremist Catholic and Protestant factions sat down and formed a government together, and their leading militias have agreed to give up violence.

In a long and audacious speech he gave at the Chatham House think tank on Tuesday, Mr. Hain argued that Iraq and Afghanistan and Palestine could be just as peaceful if we followed the lessons of Northern Ireland.

On the other side of town, British politician Paddy Ashdown was launching a book and producing a radio series on the same premise, this time from the even more unlikely perspective of the Balkans. Until last year, Mr. Ashdown was the almost king-like international overseer of Bosnia and Herzegovina, empowered by the United Nations to make the place peaceful. Which he did, sort of - though neither he nor Bosnia is very pleased with one another.

Still, he has become an outspoken proponent of international meddling.

"Despite the high-profile failures, we do know how to do this," he says. "We have succeeded in post-conflict reconstruction more often than we have failed, and the world is a safer place because of it."

Both Mr. Hain and Mr. Ashdown offer detailed lessons from their experiences. Their language tends to be polite - here is Mr. Ashdown's summary: "Leave your prejudices at home, keep your ambitions low, have enough resources to do the job, do not lose the golden hour, make security your first priority, involve the neighbours."
But, between the lines, they offer some more important, more rude lessons. Having observed both of these formerly bloody regions up close, let me offer my own distillation, in language that neither of them would probably use.

1. It helps if you come in despising everyone. Northern Ireland didn't begin to turn around until 1990, when the British government finally made it known that it didn't want the place and didn't side with the Unionists. Shortly after that, the Irish government made it known that it shared that sentiment and couldn't stand the Republican movement, either. This made peace possible.

In Bosnia, Mr. Ashdown had to develop scorn for Muslims as well as Serbs before things began to tick. Imagine what progress could be made if the U.S. declared a deep dislike of Israel, and the Arab states decided that they didn't think much of Palestinians.

2. Never mind the moderates - you need the extremists. You don't punish the baddies: You use them. The Good Friday Accord of 10 years ago failed because sensible, compromise-oriented parties were in power on the Catholic and Protestant sides. They were bound to agree, but it didn't count for much. Only when the violent Gerry Adams and the vile Ian Paisley were brought into the circle did peace become possible.

As Mr. Hain says: "Dialogue brings in those elements of the 'extremes' in a conflict or process which are capable of delivering the most obdurate constituencies."

Germany didn't become peaceful until nearly four years after V-E Day, when de-Nazification was abandoned. Afghanistan won't work until we sit down with the Taliban; in Iraq, we'll need the Mahdi Army.

And, vitally, in the Middle East it will be Hamas and Likud that make peace, or nobody will.

3. Dump money on the problem - and then get ready to take it away. Vast sums were spent on Bosnia every year in the 1990s, including by Canada, far more than we're spending on much larger and more troubled Afghanistan. Northern Ireland is the world's most expensive welfare case, for the same reason: It gives these places a fake economy, jobs upon which to practise affirmative-action policies and, most importantly, something that can be taken away if talks go badly, thus infuriating the people and destroying the popularity of local leaders.

At the end, there might be the seeds of an actual market economy and a taste for its rewards.

4. Stand back and let them bomb their own supporters. Britain fired a lot of rounds at Republicans before realizing this, Mr. Hain says. If you shoot back and try to eliminate the insurgents, they keep winning support because their cause seems just.

If you back away from a conflict and apply rules 1 and 2, they'll start blowing up their own neighbourhoods and shooting nice kids who stray; their cause will start looking crazy, and they'll be forced to the table.

This method has great but unrealized potential in Iraq and with the Taliban. And when the self-immolation-prone Hamas became the leading Palestinian party, smart world leaders might have forced Ehud Olmert to observe this rule. Instead, he fired back grotesquely. This week, Hamas has indeed bombed its own garden, but there's no avenue to peace.

There's a lot to dislike about these two arrogant Englishmen, but perhaps we ought to pay more attention to their dirty rules.

[email protected]




NATION BUILDING
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jun, 2007 07:53 pm
Makes a lot of sense; it's the same whether it's one guy against another or thousands against another thousands. They have to realize sooner or later that killing each other off year after year never solves anything - just more of the same.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jun, 2007 07:53 pm
Bush thinks he can solve the problems in Iraq with a "SURGE." Surge in violence.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2007 07:04 am
hamburger wrote:
By now, a lot of us would agree with George W. Bush's original words. Peace and unity seem distant in Afghanistan, and even more so in Iraq. We have dumped countless billions of dollars and years of effort into the Middle East, but both Israel and the Arab territories have reached their lowest ebb in recent weeks. And the resulting ennui seems to have deprived us of the will to take action where it's really needed, notably in Sudan.


Billions of dollars and thousands of lost lives; wasted, all for nothing.

This is what you get when you become a captive of a political ideology and abandon common sense and pragmatism.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2007 07:37 am
US commander warns Iraq war will go on for a decade
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2007 07:45 am
U.S. Strategy on Sunnis Questioned

Quote:
"We cannot take weapons from certain insurgents and militias and then create other militias," said Abbas Bayati, a Turkmen Shiite lawmaker who is part of the majority bloc in parliament. "You need to open recruiting centers and provide training; now what is going on is giving weapons and money to the tribes and individuals."
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2007 09:09 am
Can anyone tell me what American and British troops are doing in Iraq, apart from trying to avoid getting killed? There must be a reason, but I cant think of it other that the obvious
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2007 09:26 am
Of course you can't.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2007 09:31 am
ok spit it out

What is the purpose of the American presence in Iraq?
0 Replies
 
 

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