THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

plainoldme wrote:

MM -- You argue for the sake of arguing. I suggest you look up the US in WWII in the Encyclopedia . . . either AMericana or Britannica . . . and stop blathering.

Or it could be that you dont want to admit that the US was fighting WW2 BEFORE a declaration of war.

Quote:

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9075317/Vietnam-War
VIETNAM WAR

(1954-75), a protracted conflict that pitted the communist government of North Vietnam and its allies in South Vietnam, known as the Viet Cong, against the government of South Vietnam and its principal ally, the United States. Called the "American War" in Vietnam (or, in full, the "War Against the Americans to Save the Nation"), the war was also part of a larger regional conflict (see Indochina wars) and a manifestation of the Cold War between the United States and the Soviet Union and their respective allies.

1954 to 1975 = 21 years

According to military "experts" on TV this conflict will last for decades. Bush has gotten us into a fine mess that we can't seem to extricate ourselves from.

I also contend that if you are going to compare the length of the Iraq war to WW2,then you MUST compare it to the start,not to when the US declared war.

mysteryman wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
At least, MM, you seem now to stand corrected on your WWII thing.


No,I still contend that the war started in 1939,and that the US was involved in the war long before 1941.

I also contend that if you are going to compare the length of the Iraq war to WW2,then you MUST compare it to the start,not to when the US declared war.

Sorry,but my position on that has not changed.

Hmm.. haven't we been involved in Iraq since 1991?

Either you are going to count troops on the ground in both or neither.

parados wrote :

Quote:

mysteryman wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
At least, MM, you seem now to stand corrected on your WWII thing.


No,I still contend that the war started in 1939,and that the US was involved in the war long before 1941.

I also contend that if you are going to compare the length of the Iraq war to WW2,then you MUST compare it to the start,not to when the US declared war.

Sorry,but my position on that has not changed.

Hmm.. haven't we been involved in Iraq since 1991?

Either you are going to count troops on the ground in both or neither.

i'm with parados .
mm states that the united states became involved in WW II in 1939 ; o.k. let's fly with that .
and the gulf war started on august 2 , 1990 and is still going on .
if my math isn't completely fouled up that's going on "17" years now !
that should be long enough to satisfy mm .
is that a reasonable compromise ?
hbg

since the united states actively supported iraq in the iran-iraq war ,
did the war really start in 1980 and is still going on ?
i wonder what military historians have to say about that .
hbg

ican711nm wrote:

Quote:

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9075317/Vietnam-War
VIETNAM WAR

(1954-75), a protracted conflict that pitted the communist government of North Vietnam and its allies in South Vietnam, known as the Viet Cong, against the government of South Vietnam and its principal ally, the United States. Called the "American War" in Vietnam (or, in full, the "War Against the Americans to Save the Nation"), the war was also part of a larger regional conflict (see Indochina wars) and a manifestation of the Cold War between the United States and the Soviet Union and their respective allies.

1954 to 1975 = 21 years

What are we to think of ican's research on Vietnam in answer to a discussion of WWII?

xingu wrote:

According to military "experts" on TV this conflict will last for decades. Bush has gotten us into a fine mess that we can't seem to extricate ourselves from.

Two different news programs -- one local, the other national -- offered talking heads from both sides of the political divide opining that a military victory will be impossible and that only a negotiated peace will bring an end to this conflict.

...
The problem is that this was an ethically (morally for the linguistically backward) challenged action and the US never had to the 'right' to invade the sovereign nation of Iraq.

Congress's Joint Resolution September 14, 2001
emphasis added
SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
...
(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

Congress's Joint Resolution Oct. 16, 2002
Public Law 107-243 107th Congress Joint Resolution (H.J. Res. 114) To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
...
[10th]Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

[11th]Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens;
...

Congressional Intelligence Report 09/08/2006
REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE ON POSTWAR FINDINGS ABOUT IRAQ'S WMD PROGRAMS AND LINKS TO TERRORISM AND HOW THEY COMPARE WITH PREWAR ASSESSMENTS together with ADDITIONAL VIEWS;
...
[computer page 112 of 151 pages -- report page 109],
Conclusion 6. Postwar information indicates that the Intelligence Community accurately assessed that al-Qa'ida affiliate group Ansar al-Islam operated in Kurdish-controlled northeastern Iraq, an area that Baghadha had not controlled since 1991.

American Soldier, by General Tommy Franks, 7/1/2004
"10" Regan Books, An Imprint of HarperCollins Publishers

page 483:
"The air picture changed once more. Now the icons were streaming toward two ridges an a steep valley in far northeastern Iraq, right on the border with Iran. These were the camps of the Ansar al-Isla terrorists, where al Qaeda leader Abu Musab Zarqawi had trained disciples in the use of chemical and biological weapons. But this strike was more than just another [Tomahawk Land Attack Missile] bashing. Soon Special Forces and [Special Mission Unit] operators, leading Kurdish Peshmerga fighters, would be storming the camps, collecting evidence, taking prisoners, and killing all those who resisted."

page 519:
"[The Marines] also encountered several hundred foreign fighters from Egypt, the Sudan, Syria, and Lybia who were being trained by the regime in a camp south of Baghdad. Those foreign volunteers fought with suicidal ferocity, but they did not fight well. The Marines killed them all. "

UN CHARTER Article 51
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defense shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.

There was absolutely no reason to invade Afghanistan other than regime change MALARKEY! and that is neither a legitimate or democratic act. America actually supported Bin Laden and the Mudjahadeen, supplying weapons and munitions, when they were fighting the Russians. Likewise, in Iraq the US supported Saddam Hussein’s regime in their war against Iran, at the time it suited America, a self-serving nation, to do this.
Attacking Afghanistan was supposed to be to capture, or kill Osama Bin Laden for the attack of 9/11MALARKEY! but once they had the upper hand over the Taliban the Bush regime arrogantly decided to invade Iraq, thinking it would be a push-overMALARKEY!, how wrong they were!

Afghanistan is now the drug capitol of the world; drugs were eliminated under the TalibanMALARKEY!, and in a few years Afghanistan will once again be controlled by the Taliban, or some other Theocratic system.
Iraq is a basket case, the country has been destroyed, at least under Saddam Hussein they actually had a constant supply of electricity, fresh water and a working sewage system, now there are more than two million refugees in neighbouring countries and recent estimates put the number of innocent Iraqis killed, in Bush’s invasion and occupation, at more than 150 thousandMALARKEY!.

The Bush regime as usurped Democracy at home with the patriot actMALARKEY!, they have spied on their citizens, reintroduced the barbaric practice of tortureMALARKEY! and denied justice to those it rounded up

anton wrote:

There was absolutely no reason to invade Afghanistan other than regime change MALARKEY! and that is neither a legitimate or democratic act. America actually supported Bin Laden and the Mudjahadeen, supplying weapons and munitions, when they were fighting the Russians. Likewise, in Iraq the US supported Saddam Hussein’s regime in their war against Iran, at the time it suited America, a self-serving nation, to do this.
Attacking Afghanistan was supposed to be to capture, or kill Osama Bin Laden for the attack of 9/11MALARKEY! but once they had the upper hand over the Taliban the Bush regime arrogantly decided to invade Iraq, thinking it would be a push-overMALARKEY!, how wrong they were!

Afghanistan is now the drug capitol of the world; drugs were eliminated under the TalibanMALARKEY!, and in a few years Afghanistan will once again be controlled by the Taliban, or some other Theocratic system.
Iraq is a basket case, the country has been destroyed, at least under Saddam Hussein they actually had a constant supply of electricity, fresh water and a working sewage system, now there are more than two million refugees in neighbouring countries and recent estimates put the number of innocent Iraqis killed, in Bush’s invasion and occupation, at more than 150 thousandMALARKEY!.

The Bush regime as usurped Democracy at home with the patriot actMALARKEY!, they have spied on their citizens, reintroduced the barbaric practice of tortureMALARKEY! and denied justice to those it rounded up, or bought off the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, they have attempted to demonize countries such as Iran, Syria, North Korea and by their arrogance and actions they have succeeded in demonizing the US in the eyes of the world, making it the most hated country on the planetMALARKEY!. Those Americans who bury their heads in the sand and pretend their government is squeaky clean are doing their country no favours, they need to wake up and look around, read the internet and foreign newspapers, see the damage the Bush regime has done to your once admired and respected country; it saddens me to see the all time low your country has been dragged down to … It will be many years before the world trusts the United States againMALARKEY!.

Make no mistake, all the deaths and killing in Iraq are a direct result of George Bush authorizing the invasion and occupation of that countryMALARKEY!; the blood is on his hands! The only thing the Bush regime has succeeded in doing is to create more enemies for the United StatesMALARKEY!!

All that MALARKEY! is part of the Soros gang's polemic ... that is, is part of the Soros gang's MALARKEY!, or bought off the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, they have attempted to demonize countries such as Iran, Syria, North Korea and by their arrogance and actions they have succeeded in demonizing the US in the eyes of the world, making it the most hated country on the planetMALARKEY!. Those Americans who bury their heads in the sand and pretend their government is squeaky clean are doing their country no favours, they need to wake up and look around, read the internet and foreign newspapers, see the damage the Bush regime has done to your once admired and respected country; it saddens me to see the all time low your country has been dragged down to … It will be many years before the world trusts the United States againMALARKEY!.

Make no mistake, all the deaths and killing in Iraq are a direct result of George Bush authorizing the invasion and occupation of that countryMALARKEY!; the blood is on his hands! The only thing the Bush regime has succeeded in doing is to create more enemies for the United StatesMALARKEY!!

The Turkish army units have entered the Nothern Iraq, planning a large-scale operation against PKK gorillas, an Iraqi internet website related to head of Patriotic Union of Kurdistan Jalal Talabani reported Thursday.

The website reads that the army with large forces occupied Haftanin, Sineht and Pirbila settlements in Northern Iraq, and deployed heavy armored vehicles and commandos.
Turkish Air Forces' base in Diyarbakir made intelligence flights over the bordering territories of Iraq. Turkish Army Staff made no comment while it is reported that security zone has been created to prevent PKK terrorist gang from leaking to the territory of Turkey. The number of military forces and equipment has been reinforced in the mountainous territory near the border.
According to the intelligence, there are more than 3,500 PKK terrorists in the Northern Iraq. /APA/

I do not accept the rules imposed by others. If I did, I would not be alive today. I am a law-abiding citizen, but I recognize that there are regimes that need to be opposed rather than accepted. And in periods of regime change, the normal rules don't apply. One needs to adjust one's behavior to the changing circumstances.

My goal is to become the conscience of the world

Usually it takes a crisis to prompt a meaningful change in direction.

Ousting Bush from the White House is the central focus of my life. It's a matter of life and death.

My greatest fear is that the Bush Doctrine will succeed--that Bush will crush the terrorists, tame the rogue states of the axis of evil, and usher in a golden age of American supremacy. American supremacy is flawed and bound to fail in the long run.

What I am afraid of is that the pursuit of American supremacy may be successful for a while because the United States in fact employs a dominant position in the world today.

These are not normal times.

The principles of the Declaration of Independence are not self-evident truths but arrangements necessitated by our inherently imperfect understanding.

On December 9, 2004, Eli Pariser, who headed Soros's group Moveon PAC, boasted to his members, "Now the Democratic Party is our party. We bought it, we own it."

If the Soros $influenced$ news media succeeds in persuading more than 50% of Americans to oppose Bush's plan, it will boost our enemy's effort and it will defeat America in Iraq regardless of whether Bush's modified strategy can work or not.

Quote:

If the Soros $influenced$ news media succeeds in persuading more than 50% of Americans to oppose Bush's plan, it will boost our enemy's effort and it will defeat America in Iraq regardless of whether Bush's modified strategy can work or not.

Soros-influenced or not (conspiracy theorist, ) this has already happened, Ican. More than 50% oppose Bush's plan today.

Cycloptichorn