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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 10:13 am
revel wrote:
http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/08/07/14/10228687.html

Quote:
Baghdad: US and Iraqi negotiators have ended efforts to reach a formal security pact before President George W. Bush leaves office in favour of an interim deal, the Washington Post said on Sunday, citing senior US officials.

The two sides had been negotiating a Status of Forces Agreement that would provide a legal basis for US troops to remain when a UN mandate expires at the end of the year.

But in the past week Iraqi leaders have spoken of only agreeing what they call a memorandum of understanding. Prime Minister Nouri Al Maliki has also raised for the first time the idea of setting a timetable for US troops to leave Iraq.

The Washington Post quoted one US official close to the negotiations as saying "we are talking about dates", even though Bush has previously rebuffed calls for a timetable.

Withdrawal timetable

Iraqi Vice-President Tareq Al Hashemi, a Sunni Arab, added his support for a withdrawal timetable.

"Iraqis must know when the American and other forces will leave Iraqi land. It is our right to know, and know the truth of where the situation stands, if there is an intention for American forces to leave or not," Al Hashemi told Iraqiya state television in an interview broadcast late on Saturday.


Ican:

It appears that the US Government has rejected the SOFA that they wanted to work out, primarily on the basis of timetables for withdrawal. Will you agree with me that this is akin to the Bush administration refusing to set a date to leave; that is, refusing to leave when asked to do so, even when it is at a future time?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 10:27 am
Bush doesn't want any frequin timelines; timelines means we have to leave Iraq on a given date certain, and those oil wells will gush money without us.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 01:33 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
revel wrote:
http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/08/07/14/10228687.html

Quote:
Baghdad: US and Iraqi negotiators have ended efforts to reach a formal security pact before President George W. Bush leaves office in favour of an interim deal, the Washington Post said on Sunday, citing senior US officials.

The two sides had been negotiating a Status of Forces Agreement that would provide a legal basis for US troops to remain when a UN mandate expires at the end of the year.

But in the past week Iraqi leaders have spoken of only agreeing what they call a memorandum of understanding. Prime Minister Nouri Al Maliki has also raised for the first time the idea of setting a timetable for US troops to leave Iraq.

The Washington Post quoted one US official close to the negotiations as saying "we are talking about dates", even though Bush has previously rebuffed calls for a timetable.

Withdrawal timetable

Iraqi Vice-President Tareq Al Hashemi, a Sunni Arab, added his support for a withdrawal timetable.

"Iraqis must know when the American and other forces will leave Iraqi land. It is our right to know, and know the truth of where the situation stands, if there is an intention for American forces to leave or not," Al Hashemi told Iraqiya state television in an interview broadcast late on Saturday.


Ican:

It appears that the US Government has rejected the SOFA that they wanted to work out, primarily on the basis of timetables for withdrawal. Will you agree with me that this is akin to the Bush administration refusing to set a date to leave; that is, refusing to leave when asked to do so, even when it is at a future time?

Cycloptichorn

I agree that the Bush administration is refusing to set a date for the USA to leave.

I do not know now whether the Iraq government, absent a date set by Bush, has declared a date when it wants the USA to leave.

I am unable to find a source supporting that last item. Have you?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2008 10:15 am
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2008 10:33 am
http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/peace.jpg

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 07:10 am
The New Reality in Iraq
By FREDERICK W. KAGAN , KIMBERLY KAGAN AND JACK KEANE
July 16, 2008

All of the most important objectives of the surge have been accomplished in Iraq. The sectarian civil war is ended; al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI) has been dealt a devastating blow; and the Sadrist militia and other Iranian-backed militant groups have been disrupted.

Meanwhile, the Iraqi government has accomplished almost all of the legislative benchmarks set by the U.S. Congress and the Bush administration. More important, it is gaining wider legitimacy among the population. The attention of Iraqis across the country is focused on the upcoming provincial elections, which will be a pivotal moment in Iraq's development.

As far as the civil war is concerned, there have been virtually no sectarian killings recorded for the past 10 weeks. Violence is still perpetrated by organized groups, but AQI, the remnant Sunni insurgents and Shiite fighters are now focused on attacking their own members who have defected to our side. This is a measure of their weakness. The Iraqi population is increasingly mobilizing against the perpetrators of violence, flooding American and Iraqi forces with tips about the locations of weapons caches and key militant leaders - Sunnis turning in Sunnis and Shia turning in Shia.

The fighters have not simply hidden their weapons and gone to ground to await the next opportunity to kill each other. The Sunni insurgency, as well as AQI, has been severely disrupted. Coalition and Iraqi forces have killed or detained many key leaders, driven the militants out of every one of Iraq's major cities (including Mosul), and are pursuing the remnants vigorously in rural areas and the desert.

The Shiite militias have also been broken apart, sending thousands of their leaders scurrying for safety in Iran. Iraqi forces continue to hammer Iranian-backed Special Groups and elements of the Sadrist Jaysh al Mahdi that have been fighting with them in Sadr City, Maysan Province and elsewhere. At this time, none of these networks can conduct operations that could seriously destabilize the Iraqi government. But both al Qaeda and the Iranians are working hard to refit their networks.

The larger strategic meaning of these military and political advances must be kept clearly in mind. Iraq remains a critical front in al Qaeda's war against the U.S.

Discussions in the American media about whether AQI is "really" al Qaeda are puerile. AQI's leadership, largely foreign, is part of the global al Qaeda network operating in support of Osama bin Laden. Bin Laden and his lieutenants in Pakistan and around the world send support (including foreign fighters) to Iraq and closely follow the situation there, as their repeated public pronouncements show no less than their actions. Al Qaeda's central leadership is not prepared to lose in Iraq, and has been seeking ways to regain lost ground.

Within Iraq, AQI operatives are still seeking aggressively to re-establish bases from which they can launch more substantial operations in the future. They are failing because of the continuous pressure American and Iraqi forces are putting on them from Baghdad to Mosul. If that pressure is relaxed, they will begin to succeed again.

The Iranian leaders responsible for Iranian policy in Iraq - principally Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei and Brigadier General Qassim Soleimani, commander of the Qods Force - also remain determined. They are retraining and re-equipping thousands of fighters who fled the most recent Iraqi and Coalition operations in Basra, Baghdad, and Maysan Provinces.

Past patterns suggest those fighters will return to Iraq and attempt to restart attacks against Coalition Forces in time to disrupt Iraqi elections and to affect America's voting. Their attacks are likely to be more spectacular, but less effective at disrupting Iraqi government and society.

If America remains firm in its commitment to success in Iraq, success is very likely. The AQI and Shiite militias at present do not have the capacity to drive Iraq off course - unless both the U.S. and the Iraqi government make a number of serious mistakes.

The most serious error would be to withdraw American forces too rapidly. That would strengthen the resolve of both al Qaeda and Iran to persevere in their efforts to disrupt the young Iraqi state and weaken the resolve of those Iraqis, particularly in the Iraqi Security Forces, who are betting their lives on continued American assistance.

The blunt fact is this. In Iraq, al Qaeda is on the ropes, and the Shiite militias are badly off-balance. Now is exactly the time to continue the pressure to keep them from regaining their equilibrium. It need not, and probably will not, require large numbers of American casualties to keep this pressure on. But it will require a considerable number of American troops through 2009.

Recent suggestions in Washington that reductions could begin sooner or proceed more rapidly are premature. The current force levels will be needed through the Iraqi provincial elections later this year, and consideration of force reductions makes sense only after those elections are over and the incoming commander in Iraq, Gen. Ray Odierno, has evaluated the new situation.

The benefits to the U.S. from seeing the fight through to the end far outweigh the likely costs. For one thing, Iraqis have shown their determination to increase their oil output, currently averaging 2.5 million barrels a day, as fast as they can - something that can only happen if their country is secure.

Far more important is the opportunity in our hands today to work with a Muslim country in the heart of the Arab world to inflict the most visible and humiliating defeat possible on al Qaeda. Success in Iraq also makes it possible to establish a strategic partnership with a legitimate, democratic majority-Shia state that is aligned with the U.S. against Iran.

Recent comments by some Iraqi leaders about the current negotiations for a status-of-force agreement - made in the context of an increasingly heated election season in Iraq, and with the desire to improve Iraq's bargaining position in the negotiations - do not call the U.S. partnership into question. As we recently found in Baghdad, even the most outspoken advocates of rapid American force reductions strongly insist on a strategic partnership with America that helps Iraq stand up to Iran. Most of Iraq's military leaders are unequivocal about the need for a continued U.S. force presence.

The Iraqi government and people - whose surging anti-Persian feeling is more obvious every day - have already shown their willingness to push back against Iranian intervention. Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's attack on Iranian-backed forces in Basra, followed by Iraqi-led operations in Baghdad, central Iraq and Maysan, is proof of Baghdad's willingness. Helping Iraq to succeed is our best hope of finding a way of resolving our differences with Iran over the long term without coming to blows.

It is time for Americans to recognize it's a whole new ballgame in Iraq. The civil war is over, American troops are not an "irritant" fueling the unrest, and far from becoming dependent upon us, the Iraqi government and the army show more determination every day to run their country and to protect it. But they continue to want and need our assistance.

While victory in war is never certain until the war is over, the odds are strongly with us for once - provided we do the right thing. That is to stand by our best ally in the war against al Qaeda, and the struggle to contain Iran.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 07:30 am
Iraqis want a timetable for US forces to withdraw; Americans want a timetable for Americans forces to withdraw from Iraq. We should set a timetable for withdrawal no matter the conditions on the ground which will always be less than ideal. We are in more danger now from Afghanistan with the Taliban regrouping and Pakistan with AQ getting bigger and bigger than we are from Iraq and we are in no danger from Iran. If Iraqis want to align themselves with Iran it is their right as a sovereign country to do so. Keeping troops at the present levels at 150,000 troops in Iraq to maintain the status quo will only tie up our hands in other areas we need and should concentrate on.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 09:40 am
revel is spot on! Getting rid of AQ is but only a small part of the problem; it's the internal strife that has existed for almost 1,500 years. No amount of external effort will resolve their problems; the active dissention between the tribes of Iraq will continue long after we are gone.

Bush is not only ignorant of past history, but doesn't understand that the historians who record his history will show him as one of the worst our country has ever had. There are some significant issues about Bush that cannot be ignored: a) record federal deficit, b) worst stock market performance, c) millions losing their jobs and homes (also the worst job creation since Hoover), d) biggest increase in the cost of fuel and food, e) an unnecessary war that sacrificed American lives and treasure, f) lied about following FISA laws contrarary to our Constitution, g) approved torture of prisoners, h) alienated most of our allies, i) broke international laws by ignoring habeas corpus, and j) and the run on banks not seen since the depression.

Republicans should be proud!
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 09:47 am
Yeah, because the Kagan's opinion on the war is the one anyone looks for. After all, they are a huge part of getting into the mess - and have been cheering for the war since day one! Real objectivity!

The idea that Iraq will somehow ally with us against Iran? Kagan is smoking crack.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 11:05 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Yeah, because the Kagan's opinion on the war is the one anyone looks for. After all, they are a huge part of getting into the mess - and have been cheering for the war since day one! Real objectivity!

The idea that Iraq will somehow ally with us against Iran? Kagan is smoking crack.

Cycloptichorn


Expert analysis and experience trumps internet forum toughguy. Sorry Cyc.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 11:13 am
Yeah, the Iraq government should establish a timetable for when they want the USA military to leave Iraq. Its their country and they have the complete right and authority to decide the deadline by which the USA must leave Iraq. That is not the USA's decision to make. But leaving Iraq before the Iraq government deadline is the USA's decision to make.

So what the hell is the Iraq deadline for the USA to leave?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 11:26 am
ican711nm wrote:
Yeah, the Iraq government should establish a timetable for when they want the USA military to leave Iraq. Its their country and they have the complete right and authority to decide the deadline by which the USA must leave Iraq. That is not the USA's decision to make. But leaving Iraq before the Iraq government deadline is the USA's decision to make.

So what the hell is the Iraq deadline for the USA to leave?


It sounds as if it's not too far in the future.

Why would such a date be a sticking point in the SOFA that the Bush admin was seeking? Only if our leaders didn't wish to leave.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 11:37 am
Our leaders do not want to leave prematurely, that is true. They want Iraq to have the best possible shot at maintaining a new, and therefore naturally shaky, democracy in the face of very evil people who would deny them that ability. I believe the Iraqi leadership wants what we want for them. Of course they want the prestige of being able to show that they can accomplish that without having the USA at their backs. They are also realistic enough to know what risks they will be taking should they ask us to leave too soon.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 11:45 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Our leaders do not want to leave prematurely, that is true. They want Iraq to have the best possible shot at maintaining a new, and therefore naturally shaky, democracy in the face of very evil people who would deny them that ability. I believe the Iraqi leadership wants what we want for them. Of course they want the prestige of being able to show that they can accomplish that without having the USA at their backs. They are also realistic enough to know what risks they will be taking should they ask us to leave too soon.


Shouldn't Iraq get to decide when we leave? What is 'prematurely?'

Your paragraph is exactly the kind of thing I thought I would see written by those who don't want the US to leave and abandon our 'interests' there.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 11:58 am
If we set a time table, then many bad things can happen... We either follow it or we don't. If we follow it and everything goes to hell then we are at fault for leaving early and abandoning Iraq to the terrorists. If we don't follow it, then we are going back on our terms and we can't be trusted. So as a result, We set a time table and are held responsible for any results.

Now, on the other hand, if Iraq sets a time table, then the results of our leaving lies solely on their shoulders. A much more preferrable result as that provides many positive results... Gets the US out of Iraq, shows it's neighbors that Iraq is a sovereign country, give the Iraqi govt a boost and gives them honor.

So, I recommend staying the course until such time Iraq sets down a plan for US forces to leave Iraq. I have seen no suggestion from the Bush administration that they would not abide that beyond Cyc's continuing to think they won't.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 12:08 pm
McGentrix wrote:
If we set a time table, then many bad things can happen... We either follow it or we don't. If we follow it and everything goes to hell then we are at fault for leaving early and abandoning Iraq to the terrorists. If we don't follow it, then we are going back on our terms and we can't be trusted. So as a result, We set a time table and are held responsible for any results.

Now, on the other hand, if Iraq sets a time table, then the results of our leaving lies solely on their shoulders. A much more preferrable result as that provides many positive results... Gets the US out of Iraq, shows it's neighbors that Iraq is a sovereign country, give the Iraqi govt a boost and gives them honor.

So, I recommend staying the course until such time Iraq sets down a plan for US forces to leave Iraq. I have seen no suggestion from the Bush administration that they would not abide that beyond Cyc's continuing to think they won't.


Really?

A lack of willingness on the US' part to accept a time-table has been widely cited as the reason the SOFA talks broke down. How do you square this with what you have written? It appears that the US is unwilling to accept a timeline that Iraq proposes...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 12:18 pm
No, the willingness of the US to set a timetable has been widely cited as one of the reasons the SOFA talks broke down. Hardly the MAIN reason as you are pushing it to be.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 12:24 pm
McGentrix wrote:
No, the willingness of the US to set a timetable has been widely cited as one of the reasons the SOFA talks broke down. Hardly the MAIN reason as you are pushing it to be.


Hmm, I think you are completely wrong.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/16/washington/16prexy.html?ref=middleeast

Quote:
There has been resistance in both countries to the Bush administration's efforts to negotiate an agreement with Iraq that would outline broad diplomatic and economic relations between the countries, while also providing a legal basis for continuing to conduct military operations.

Mr. Maliki, facing opposition from Iraqi political parties wary of American intentions, told Arab leaders last week that he was prepared to negotiate only a shorter-term agreement. He said he would insist on a timetable for withdrawal.

...

President Bush said Tuesday that Iraq wanted to include an "aspirational goal" for the departure of most foreign troops there in any agreement authorizing future American operations, but he reiterated his opposition to what he called "an artificial timetable for withdrawal."


So, the Iraqis say 'we insist on a timetable for withdrawal.' Bush says 'no artificial timetables.' And this isn't Bush rejecting a timetable, proposed by the Iraqis, in which way?

You are splitting hairs, McG. We are rejecting the attempts by Iraq to get us to leave their country. I understand that this is hard for you and Ican to accept, but it is the truth...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 12:27 pm
Cyclo, Forget it; Fox and ican will continue to defend Bush until hell freezes over.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jul, 2008 12:31 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
No, the willingness of the US to set a timetable has been widely cited as one of the reasons the SOFA talks broke down. Hardly the MAIN reason as you are pushing it to be.


Hmm, I think you are completely wrong.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/16/washington/16prexy.html?ref=middleeast

Quote:
There has been resistance in both countries to the Bush administration's efforts to negotiate an agreement with Iraq that would outline broad diplomatic and economic relations between the countries, while also providing a legal basis for continuing to conduct military operations.

Mr. Maliki, facing opposition from Iraqi political parties wary of American intentions, told Arab leaders last week that he was prepared to negotiate only a shorter-term agreement. He said he would insist on a timetable for withdrawal.

...

President Bush said Tuesday that Iraq wanted to include an "aspirational goal" for the departure of most foreign troops there in any agreement authorizing future American operations, but he reiterated his opposition to what he called "an artificial timetable for withdrawal."


So, the Iraqis say 'we insist on a timetable for withdrawal.' Bush says 'no artificial timetables.' And this isn't Bush rejecting a timetable, proposed by the Iraqis, in which way?

You are splitting hairs, McG. We are rejecting the attempts by Iraq to get us to leave their country. I understand that this is hard for you and Ican to accept, but it is the truth...

Cycloptichorn


So, where in that article does it mention an Iraqi timetable? Nowhere. It does ask for a US prepared timetable which Bush has, rightly so, stated he will not give.

If the Iraqi government wants a timetable, all they have to do is create one. But, I doubt they do that because they do not want to be the ones to have the onus of failure on their shoulders. With elections looming, they are spouting the same political rhetoric that we see in our country now. Populist expressions that look good in the media full of sound and fury...
0 Replies
 
 

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