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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jun, 2008 01:28 pm
revel wrote:
US issues threat to Iraq's $50bn foreign reserves in military deal

So even though most Iraqis are against this deal (left links these last few days to the effect) the US is going to bribe and threaten to get their way. Some things never change, but I hope our leaders in the US changes. If we elect McCain, it won't.


And if we elect Obama, what then?
He says he will listen to the "experts", but what if those same experts advise that we stay in Iraq for a while, what then?
And will he be able to override the congress if they decide not to leave Iraq for some reason?

Why are you so ironclad sure that Obama will be able to make all of, or even some of, the changes he says he wants to make?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2008 07:49 am
This has probably been posted before, but in light of the immediate discussion, here it is again. It is worth repeating and repeating and repeating. The headline and the last paragraph says it all and fully illustrates the context of the dishonesty/indifference of much of the US Media who feed negative news to the eagerly gullible and those, like Obama, who focus only on the problems and ignore the progress:

Theo Caldwell on Iraqi Ambassador Howar Ziad:
"I prefer messy democracy to the stability of tyrants"LINK
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2008 10:11 am
And this:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/06092008/photos/oped027b.jpg

EAT CROW, IRAQ WAR SKEPTICS
By ARTHUR HERMAN
Petraeus: Dealt lethal blow to Iraqi jihadists.
June 9, 2008

AMERICA has won, or is about to win, the Iraq war.

The latest proof came last month, as the Iraqi army - just a few months ago the target of scorn and abuse from Democratic politicians and journalists - forcefully reoccupied three cities that had served as key insurgency bases (Basra, Sadr City and Mosul).

Sunnis and Shias alike applauded as their nation's army compelled insurgent militias to lay down their arms. The country's leading opposition newspaper, Azzaman, led the applause for the move into Mosul - a sign that national reconciliation in Iraq is under way and probably irreversible.

US combat deaths in May also were down to 20, the lowest monthly total since February 2004. The toll for May 2007 was 121.

In a Washington Post interview, CIA Director Michael Hayden said we're witnessing the "near strategic defeat of al Qaeda in Iraq."

The Bush administration has taken heaps of abuse for its Iraq policy, including its decision to launch the "surge" last December. Now the strategy, which our nation's "best and brightest" regularly dismissed as a failure, has cleared the way for the establishment of a secure democracy in Iraq and a lasting peace.

It would be foolish to pop open the victory champagne yet. The truce between the Shia and Sunni in Iraq remains fragile; al Qaeda may well launch one more last-ditch offensive there (a la Tet 1968), in order to discourage the US and/or Iraq publics on the eve of the elections.

Meanwhile, we're still fighting a vicious insurgency in Afghanistan, and have yet to root out the al Qaeda remnants of along the Afghan-Pakistan border. And the continued threat of home-grown terror cells keeps European governments nervous.

In wars, however, trends have their own momentum. And the trend is running away from al Qaeda and its jihadist allies - not only in Iraq but also across the Middle East.

According to Hayden, al Qaeda faces a similar strategic debacle in Saudi Arabia.

And al Qaeda's fugitive leadership is learning that its former safe haven along the Afghan-Pakistan border is no longer so safe. Thanks to cooperation with Pakistan's new government, unmanned US Predator drones recently killed two top al Qaeda leaders there.

Once Gen. David Petraeus is confirmed as commander of US forces in the Middle East in July, he'll be able to apply the same strategy for victory learned in the Iraq surge to the war in Afghanistan.

In short, the larger War on Terror may be reaching a tipping point similar to that of the Iraq war.
LINK
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2008 10:15 am
Years from now, that author will regret this article, the way that many other Conservative authors have regretted similarly-written articles over the last several years.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2008 10:20 am
Interesting; a few months of reduced violence and deaths after five years, and they're already claiming success. Whatever happened to perspective? How many more years?
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2008 10:26 am
foxfyre quoted :

Quote:
"I prefer messy democracy to the stability of tyrants"


this quote was attributed to the italian governments many , many years ago - certainly nothing new about that - it might also apply to the state of israel - and on accasion even to canada , where a minority government governs at the pleasure of the opposition parties .

since iraq and iran are now co-operating closely and are promising to support each other , some semblance of peace might be expected .
israel and syria are also talking to each other - much to displeasure of "someone" - perhaps the middle-east may experience a period of calm .
hbg

see also yesterday's post :

Quote:
Iraqi PM assures Iran on security

Iraq will not allow its territory to be used to attack Iran, Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Maliki has said during a visit to Tehran.


Mr Maliki met the foreign minister and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who pledged to help with Iraq's security.

0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2008 11:50 am
hamburger wrote:
foxfyre quoted :

Quote:
"I prefer messy democracy to the stability of tyrants"


this quote was attributed to the italian governments many , many years ago - certainly nothing new about that - it might also apply to the state of israel - and on accasion even to canada , where a minority government governs at the pleasure of the opposition parties .

since iraq and iran are now co-operating closely and are promising to support each other , some semblance of peace might be expected .
israel and syria are also talking to each other - much to displeasure of "someone" - perhaps the middle-east may experience a period of calm .
hbg

see also yesterday's post :

Quote:
Iraqi PM assures Iran on security

Iraq will not allow its territory to be used to attack Iran, Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Maliki has said during a visit to Tehran.


Mr Maliki met the foreign minister and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who pledged to help with Iraq's security.



Keeping it real, Hamburger, pledging to not use Iraq as base to launch attacks against Iran was in return for a pledge from Iran not to interfere with the Iraq/US security pact. This and other matters:

Excerpt from CNN Nic Robertson interview with Al-Maliki:

Quote:
ROBERTSON: So would you rather have Senator [John] McCain become the president who's wanting to keep more American troops in here for longer?

AL-MALIKI: We welcome the choice of the American people, especially that toppling the regime in Iraq and the supporting the efforts of the Iraqi opposition at the time began at the time of the Democrats and was executed in the Republican period. And again I say if Mr. McCain comes into power he will definitely take into consideration the equation I mentioned, which is the required need and the requirement to face terrorism not only in Iraq, but the world.

(Earlier al-Maliki also said he did not fear Obama as he felt the Iraqi Army was strong enough to hold on if Obama withdrew the US troops.)

ROBERTSON: What achievements have you achieved in the war on terror?

AL-MALIKI: Al-Qaeda and terrorist organizations were planning to turn Iraq into what you used to hear about, the Islamic State, which they wanted to be the base for al-Qaeda because Iraq is a strong and rich country and is geographically significant. So they were planning and came from different parts of the world to Iraq to establish this alleged state, and maybe it was an opportunity when they gathered in Iraq and were targeted decisively. That wrecked their plans and even affected the structure and organization of al-Qaeda in different parts of the world. I believe al-Qaeda tried all its power in Iraq and was defeated, and its defeat in Iraq requires us to pursue it in the other countries to finish this dangerous organization in the world.

ROBERTSON: Mr. Prime Minister, Last year some people were writing you off as a prime minister. They were saying you would be out of a job within months. Are you surprised that you are still prime minister?

AL-MALIKI: I am not surprised and think of it much. I only think of a national duty I was given and tasked with, accomplish it in a way I am convinced of and is based on the constitution and law and do not care if I stay or not. But what I would worry -- if certain measures are taken outside the democratic framework. I would be very easy with any decision that goes through the democratic framework and will be very tough if anything is being tried outside the democratic framework. Thank you. Thank you.
CNN


Quote:
Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Al Maliki pushed Iran to back off its fierce opposition to a US-Iraqi security pact, Iraqi officials said, as he promised Iranian leaders that Iraq will not be a launching pad for any attack on their country.
LINK
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2008 04:22 pm
mysteryman wrote:
revel wrote:
US issues threat to Iraq's $50bn foreign reserves in military deal

So even though most Iraqis are against this deal (left links these last few days to the effect) the US is going to bribe and threaten to get their way. Some things never change, but I hope our leaders in the US changes. If we elect McCain, it won't.


And if we elect Obama, what then?
He says he will listen to the "experts", but what if those same experts advise that we stay in Iraq for a while, what then?
And will he be able to override the congress if they decide not to leave Iraq for some reason?

Why are you so ironclad sure that Obama will be able to make all of, or even some of, the changes he says he wants to make?


Obama has said that he won't leave Iraq with same recklessness as we went in.

The reason I trust Obama more than McCain or any other conservative war hawk is because I trust them not to abuse Iraqis by cheating Iraqis out of their natural resources or to just use Iraq as some kind of launching pad to launch wars. That is why I am against permanent bases. Moreover, the experts in a future administration might be different than the ones right now and have different things to say.

One of the reasons why this security deal is so wrong is because it seems to able to grab more power for just those in this current administration even after they leave to do what they to want to in Iraq without consent or wishe of congress or the wishes of any future administration. I hope I understand it wrong.

Btw; there was no pledge from Iran to go along with the security deal; Malaki just told Iran to back off and then promised them (Iran) the US won't be using Iraq as a launching pad. This security deal is not going to go through without a lot of angry people getting pissed. The high clerics from both countries don't want it and people listen to them more than Malaki.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2008 05:58 pm
from UPI :

Quote:
Top Iraqi cleric warns of uprising

Published: June 9, 2008 at 6:16 PM

A leading Iraqi Shiite cleric said Monday the status of forces agreement between Washington and Baghdad could lead to an uprising in Iraq.

"It is not to the benefit of the U.S. as a major power to lessen the sovereignty of Iraq. This treaty is humiliating to the Iraqi people, and might cause an uprising against it and those who support it," Grand Ayatollah Mohammad al-Modarresi told the Iranian state-run English-language service, Press TV.

Modarresi said the strategic framework between Iraq and the United States needs a full understanding of the situation in Iraq before negotiations on the arrangement proceed. "It will surely fail if kept as it is," he said.

The current U.N. mandate for Iraq expires in 2009. The United States wants to establish 50 military bases in Iraq, provide immunity to security personnel from Iraqi law and maintain the right to conduct autonomous military operations as part of the legal framework defining the relationship with Iraq.

Iranian officials expressed concern over the arrangement, though Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki visited the region during the weekend to assure Tehran that Iraq would not be used as a staging point for U.S.-led military operations against Iran.

Meanwhile, Iraqi officials told The Times of London Monday U.S. troops would be restricted to their military bases and security personnel subject to Iraqi law as part of the status of forces agreement.

"We do need the Americans to leave the cities and the streets," Iraqi government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh said. "They have to be there in the back and ... in their camps. Whenever we ask them, they will be ready to support and help."



source :
IRAQ
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 12:07 am
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080610/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_iraq_2;_ylt=AmA2LuGF2IA24liGRLajkAlX6GMA

Bush government admits that they won't get the permanent bases and presence in Iraq they want this year, due to stiff resistance from Iraq's politicians.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 06:48 am
The more you get into this security deal the more you can't believe they thought they could pull this off on the sly without anyone noticing.

Quote:
Leila Fadel reports that Shiite lawmakers in Iraq told her that the US has requested 58 bases from the Iraqi government as part of the security agreement now being negotiated. The US also is said to want the authority to decide when Iraq has been attacked, and when and how to respond. The lawmakers are afraid that Washington will use that provision to drag them into the middle of a war between the US and Iran.

On being informed by McClatchy of some of these details, the campaign of Senator Barack Obama demanded that any such stipulation of 58 bases be submitted to the US Congress for approval, and that the Iraqis be told that the US does not seek permanent bases in that country. The McCain campaign had no comment.

Al-Hayat reports that Kurdish MP Mahmud Osman is saying that he has seen a second version of the agreement in which the Americans reduced their demands.


source

I don't understand why there has to be a deal for the US to stay to help as long as the Iraqis need or want us to stay. It is their country for heavens sake, they should be the ones to decide what happens in their own country and the US is just there to help them, not in charge of them. (ideally)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 09:30 am
revel wrote:
The more you get into this security deal the more you can't believe they thought they could pull this off on the sly without anyone noticing.

Quote:
Leila Fadel reports that Shiite lawmakers in Iraq told her that the US has requested 58 bases from the Iraqi government as part of the security agreement now being negotiated. The US also is said to want the authority to decide when Iraq has been attacked, and when and how to respond. The lawmakers are afraid that Washington will use that provision to drag them into the middle of a war between the US and Iran.

On being informed by McClatchy of some of these details, the campaign of Senator Barack Obama demanded that any such stipulation of 58 bases be submitted to the US Congress for approval, and that the Iraqis be told that the US does not seek permanent bases in that country. The McCain campaign had no comment.

Al-Hayat reports that Kurdish MP Mahmud Osman is saying that he has seen a second version of the agreement in which the Americans reduced their demands.


source

I don't understand why there has to be a deal for the US to stay to help as long as the Iraqis need or want us to stay. It is their country for heavens sake, they should be the ones to decide what happens in their own country and the US is just there to help them, not in charge of them. (ideally)


It happens because Americans have lost the ability to think for themselves, and now believe "we broke it, we must fix it." Iraq was broken for the past 1,500 years, and will remain broken for the next 1,500 years. There's nothing for us to fix.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 09:57 am
If you guys would look to something other than anti-Bush leftwing blogs and fringe news sources, you might not get it so wrong. Here is what is actually happening re U.S. bases--which includess no plans for a permanent military base. The Iraqis and the USA are negotiating a security pact so that the mutually beneficial agreement will be between the US and Iraq rather than via UN mandate, and this does have the blessings of the Iraqi government. It does not have the blessings of Al-Sadr followers who some here seem to think should be calling the shots instead of those Iraqis who want a strong, free, independent Iraq.

I believe the only serious quarrel is whether US Troops will continue to enjoy 'immunity' meaning they will be under US jurisdiction and not Iraqi jurisdiction. President Bush, for whatever failings he has had, will not allow US Troops to be under any jurisdiction but ours. I believe John McCain will also see how important that is. Al-Maliki understands this. I do not trust a liberal Democrat to understand how important that is.

U.S. ambassador: No permanent Iraq bases Thurs., June. 5, 2008Font size:
'Not going to be forever,' he says after some Iraqis raise concern

WASHINGTON - The Bush administration is not trying to set up permanent military bases in Iraq, even surreptitiously, the diplomat leading tense talks with Iraq said Thursday.

U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker rejected the notion that the legal and military agreements he wants this year are blueprints for an everlasting American military presence inside Iraq.

"It is not going to be forever," he told reporters at the State Department.

Crocker addressed suspicions, including among many Iraqis, that the Bush administration is trying to wrap up deals for an indefinite military presence in Iraq that the next U.S. president could not undo.

"There isn't going to be an agreement that infringes on Iraqi sovereignty," and the military agreement will have a provision for periodic review and renewal, as do similar agreements with other countries, Crocker said.

The deals would establish a long-term security relationship between Iraq and the United States, and a legal basis to keep U.S. troops in Iraq after the U.N. mandate expires at the end of the year.

Negotiations are intense, particularly over the longevity of military bases, control of Iraqi airspace and the legal status of civilian contractors such as the Blackwater security guards involved in a deadly confrontation that killed 17 Iraqi civilians last September.

Public critics in Iraq worry the deal will lock in American military, economic and political domination of the country. Iraqis also widely view the U.S. insistence that American troops continue to enjoy immunity under Iraqi law as an infringement on national sovereignty.

Iraqi cites 'some demands'
"The Americans have some demands that the Iraqi government regards as infringing on its sovereignty," lawmaker Haidar al-Abadi said this week. "This is the main dispute, and if the dispute is not settled, I frankly tell you there will not be an agreement."

Crocker said the deals will not contain secret provisions, and will be "transparent" for both Iraqis and Americans. He said there is no attempt to use any legal or semantic sleight of hand.

"This will be a serious negotiation and there aren't going to be any efforts to play around with words on this," he said.

Control of Iraq's airspace is gradually being handed to Iraq as its capabilities improve, Crocker said.

He hopes to complete the overarching security deal by the end of July and the military agreement by the end of the year, when a U.N. mandate for a foreign military presence in Iraq expires.
CNBC LINK
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 10:15 am
So on one side, we have lefty blogs, and the other, known liars. Hmm, who to believe?

What makes you think that Crocker is telling the truth? At all?

A lot of it depends on how you parse the words 'permanent' and 'forever.' Crocker could be technically telling the truth, while at the same time, still planning on 100-year bases...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 10:18 am
Well your side has the Congressional oversight. So if there is money being allocated for permanent bases in Iraq it is their doing. Are they all liars?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 10:23 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Well your side has the Congressional oversight. So if there is money being allocated for permanent bases in Iraq it is their doing. Are they all liars?


I think you will find, upon examination, that there has been no money allotted for such things under the Dem congress. Bush is making this deal outside of Congressional approval. Now, it isn't going to happen; the Iraqis have made that pretty clear, and posturing by Crocker and other failed Bushites is really immaterial... but even if it does go through, Bush will try and force Congress to pay for it, or be 'cutting off the troops in the field.' What a bunch of BS.

It doesn't matter anyways, b/c Obama is going to come in next year and scrap whatever Bush does anyhoo. The idea that he will somehow be bound by this loser is ridiculous.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 10:23 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
So on one side, we have lefty blogs, and the other, known liars. Hmm, who to believe?

What makes you think that Crocker is telling the truth? At all?

A lot of it depends on how you parse the words 'permanent' and 'forever.' Crocker could be technically telling the truth, while at the same time, still planning on 100-year bases...

Cycloptichorn


As the old saying goes, "actions speak louder than words." We have not stopped building those permanent bases, and this administration is trying to fill the "vacancies" in our embassy in Baghdad. No, we're not planning to stay there "forever."
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 07:19 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080610/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_iraq_2;_ylt=AmA2LuGF2IA24liGRLajkAlX6GMA

Bush government admits that they won't get the permanent bases and presence in Iraq they want this year, due to stiff resistance from Iraq's politicians.

Cycloptichorn


How is this possible?
According to many on the left, the Iraqi govt is nothing more then a puppet of the US and will do whatever the US wants.

Now, you are saying they are opposing the US.
So, are they a puppet or not?
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 07:44 pm
Occasionally, even a puppet finds a bit of it's stuffing has hardened into something resembling a backbone.

Lookit, here's what going to happen. The drawdown of troops in Iraq will continue into 2009-2010 until the troop levels reach a point where the Shites know they can foment a full Islamist revolution both ala Iran and with Iran's aid and assistance. (No pun intended with the ala.)

The result will be that by mid-2011 there will be a new Islamist State joined cheek to jowl with Iran with a nice long border with Turkey. (Just in time to screw with the elections there.) Oh, and by the way, by then, the Taliban will have made a grand return in the Western and SouthWestern portions of Afghanistan and Pakistan will have dropped all pretense of being a US ally. That will put the Shia of Iran in control of more territory than they have had since the 1300s.

Thank you, George Bush, Savior of the Shiites!!

Yes, the Taliban Pashtuns are Sunni, but that hasn't stopped Iran from sending them arms since 2007.

Joe(What? These are CARE packages.)Nation
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2008 07:04 am
Quote:
BAGHDAD, June 10 -- High-level negotiations over the future role of the U.S. military in Iraq have turned into an increasingly acrimonious public debate, with Iraqi politicians denouncing what they say are U.S. demands to maintain nearly 60 bases in their country indefinitely.

Top Iraqi officials are calling for a radical reduction of the U.S. military's role here after the U.N. mandate authorizing its presence expires at the end of this year. Encouraged by recent Iraqi military successes, government officials have said that the United States should agree to confine American troops to military bases unless the Iraqis ask for their assistance, with some saying Iraq might be better off without them.

"The Americans are making demands that would lead to the colonization of Iraq," said Sami al-Askari, a senior Shiite politician on parliament's foreign relations committee who is close to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. "If we can't reach a fair agreement, many people think we should say, 'Goodbye, U.S. troops. We don't need you here anymore.' "

Congress has grown increasingly restive over the negotiations, which would produce a status of forces agreement setting out the legal rights and responsibilities of U.S. troops in Iraq and a broader "security framework" defining the political and military relationship between the two countries. Senior lawmakers of both parties have demanded more information and questioned the Bush administration's insistence that no legislative approval is required.


source

foxfrye wrote:
Quote:
Well your side has the Congressional oversight. So if there is money being allocated for permanent bases in Iraq it is their doing. Are they all liars?


reply:
Quote:
WASHINGTON - President Bush this week declared that he has the power to bypass four laws, including a prohibition against using federal funds to establish permanent US military bases in Iraq, that Congress passed as part of a new defense bill.


source
0 Replies
 
 

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