THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

I'm not making any such point at all. I am making a point that prisoners do and have lied about their treatment in prison. As long as there are bleeding hearts out there, they can generate a great deal of sympathy and sometimes win lucrative judgments by doing that.

Women have been raped too, and most often tell the truth about that, but it does not logically follow that every woman who cries rape has been raped. A good case in point is the woman who accused the Duke LaCrosse team. So history and possibility or even probability is still not sufficient to make a judgment.

I hear what you're saying, but ideology and negative attitudes about the government is still not sufficient justification for drawing a conclusion about the treatment of a prisoner. It is just as likely that a prisoner will have as much or more reason to lie about things as anybody else.

Remember that NOW and other women's advocacy groups were adament that women don't lie about sexual abuse and assault? If a woman claimed it, then by golly the guy did it. Until Paula Jones. And inexplicably Paula was trailer trash, uncredible, obviously lying.

Ideology does funny things to one's perception. It should not be used in lieu of reasonable means to achieve the truth before a judgment is declared, however.

If you can show where I said anything about what I want to believe or any proof that my ideology alters my opinion about anything I said, go for it.

(Muttering that liberals simply cannot argue a point of view without ad hominem.......why is that?)

But far worse than the false charges was the secret government file that Azmy uncovered.

Six months after Kurnaz reached Guantanamo, U.S. military intelligence had written, "criminal investigation task force has no definite link [or] evidence of detainee having an association with al Qaeda or making any specific threat toward the U.S."

At the same time, German intelligence agents wrote their government, saying, "USA considers Murat Kurnaz's innocence to be proven. He is to be released in approximately six to eight weeks."

But Azmy says Kurnaz was kept at Guantanamo Bay for three and a half years after this memo was written in 2002.

They kept him, Kurnaz says, by inventing new charges. In a makeshift courthouse, Kurnaz claims that a military judge charged that Kurnaz had been picked up near Osama bin Laden's hideout in Afghanistan while fighting for the Taliban. Ironic, since it was the U.S. that flew him to Afghanistan to begin with.

"Have you ever in your legal career run across anything like this?" Pelley asks Baher Azmy.

"In my legal career, no," Azmy says. "But in Guantanamo, no detainee has ever been able to genuinely present evidence before a neutral judge. And so as absurd as Murat Kurnaz's case is, I assure you there are many, many dozens just as tenuous."

And a U.S. federal judge agreed. She ruled the Guantanamo military tribunals violated the prisoners' right to a defense, and she singled out Kurnaz's case as an example.

Perhaps his book deal is a reason for him to exagerrate or lie about his mistreatment?

Now, throughout all this, I have not condoned any mistreatment to any prisoner, neither have I supported it. It is what it is. None of us will know the truth behind what really happened in Gitmo.

BillW wrote:

Quote:

Change anything? nope. It's just interesting that you only hear one side of a story and the government is "despicable". You certainly have no idea how Kurnaz acted while in prison, nor what actions of his lead to his mistreatment (not an excuse for it so save the response). Not a single prisoner in any prison is guilty if you only read their side of the story.

The most illogical piece of tripe I have ever seen. This upholds Hilter as being an angel........he was made to do the things he did

Perhaps you had trouble reading it? Nothing logical about what I wrote at all.

Foxfyre wrote:

If you can show where I said anything about what I want to believe or any proof that my ideology alters my opinion about anything I said, go for it.

(Muttering that liberals simply cannot argue a point of view without ad hominem.......why is that?)

The funny thing is, you accused me of exactly the same thing just a few posts above.

Your ideology does not allow you to answer simple questions, such as: was what was done to this man, wrong? I'd like to see you even attempt to answer.

From the piece in question:

Quote:

But far worse than the false charges was the secret government file that Azmy uncovered.

Six months after Kurnaz reached Guantanamo, U.S. military intelligence had written, "criminal investigation task force has no definite link [or] evidence of detainee having an association with al Qaeda or making any specific threat toward the U.S."

At the same time, German intelligence agents wrote their government, saying, "USA considers Murat Kurnaz's innocence to be proven. He is to be released in approximately six to eight weeks."

But Azmy says Kurnaz was kept at Guantanamo Bay for three and a half years after this memo was written in 2002.

They kept him, Kurnaz says, by inventing new charges. In a makeshift courthouse, Kurnaz claims that a military judge charged that Kurnaz had been picked up near Osama bin Laden's hideout in Afghanistan while fighting for the Taliban. Ironic, since it was the U.S. that flew him to Afghanistan to begin with.

"Have you ever in your legal career run across anything like this?" Pelley asks Baher Azmy.

"In my legal career, no," Azmy says. "But in Guantanamo, no detainee has ever been able to genuinely present evidence before a neutral judge. And so as absurd as Murat Kurnaz's case is, I assure you there are many, many dozens just as tenuous."

And a U.S. federal judge agreed. She ruled the Guantanamo military tribunals violated the prisoners' right to a defense, and she singled out Kurnaz's case as an example.

What happened to him - without even requiring you to believe that he is telling the truth about his abuses at US hands - was both illegal and immoral. Would you disagree?

Cycloptichorn

None of us will know the truth behind what really happened in Gitmo.

The truth will set you free, but first it will make you miserable.
James A. Garfield

McGentrix wrote:

BillW wrote:

Quote:

Change anything? nope. It's just interesting that you only hear one side of a story and the government is "despicable". You certainly have no idea how Kurnaz acted while in prison, nor what actions of his lead to his mistreatment (not an excuse for it so save the response). Not a single prisoner in any prison is guilty if you only read their side of the story.

The most illogical piece of tripe I have ever seen. This upholds Hilter as being an angel........he was made to do the things he did

Perhaps you had trouble reading it? Nothing illogical about what I wrote at all.

I agree.

Interrogation methods approved by Bush.

The Justice Department sent a legal memorandum to the Pentagon in 2003 asserting that federal laws prohibiting assault, maiming and other crimes did not apply to military interrogators who questioned al-Qaeda captives because the president's ultimate authority as commander in chief overrode such statutes.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

If you can show where I said anything about what I want to believe or any proof that my ideology alters my opinion about anything I said, go for it.

(Muttering that liberals simply cannot argue a point of view without ad hominem.......why is that?)

The funny thing is, you accused me of exactly the same thing just a few posts above.

Your ideology does not allow you to answer simple questions, such as: was what was done to this man, wrong? I'd like to see you even attempt to answer.

From the piece in question:

Quote:

But far worse than the false charges was the secret government file that Azmy uncovered.

Six months after Kurnaz reached Guantanamo, U.S. military intelligence had written, "criminal investigation task force has no definite link [or] evidence of detainee having an association with al Qaeda or making any specific threat toward the U.S."

At the same time, German intelligence agents wrote their government, saying, "USA considers Murat Kurnaz's innocence to be proven. He is to be released in approximately six to eight weeks."

But Azmy says Kurnaz was kept at Guantanamo Bay for three and a half years after this memo was written in 2002.

They kept him, Kurnaz says, by inventing new charges. In a makeshift courthouse, Kurnaz claims that a military judge charged that Kurnaz had been picked up near Osama bin Laden's hideout in Afghanistan while fighting for the Taliban. Ironic, since it was the U.S. that flew him to Afghanistan to begin with.

"Have you ever in your legal career run across anything like this?" Pelley asks Baher Azmy.

"In my legal career, no," Azmy says. "But in Guantanamo, no detainee has ever been able to genuinely present evidence before a neutral judge. And so as absurd as Murat Kurnaz's case is, I assure you there are many, many dozens just as tenuous."

And a U.S. federal judge agreed. She ruled the Guantanamo military tribunals violated the prisoners' right to a defense, and she singled out Kurnaz's case as an example.

What happened to him - without even requiring you to believe that he is telling the truth about his abuses at US hands - was both illegal and immoral. Would you disagree?

Cycloptichorn

I believe it is immoral and wrong to cruelly or intentionally mistreat anybody. I also think it is immoral and wrong to cruelly or intentionally accuse somebody of mistreating somebody unjustly when you have no proof for your accusation other than you want to believe it.

That's my ideology.

What's yours?