The Bush administration tattered the "cloth" to such a degree, it's no longer recognizable as American or America. You wouldn't understand why this is so.
cicerone imposter wrote:The Bush administration tattered the "cloth" to such a degree, it's no longer recognizable as American or America. You wouldn't understand why this is so.

That coming from you, a prolific rag merchant, is hilarious.
cicerone imposter wrote:Let's see: ican = FOX news and other biased GOP rags, while revel = government sources, NYT, Washington Post, BBC, and some of the most prolific writers of our times.
You cant be serious!!
You dont trust the govt about Iraq, the economy, any aspect of national security, healthcare, and almost everything else, yet you trust these same "govt sources" to be honest about Iraq now?
That seems to be very inconsistent to me.
You have attacked the NYT when they published something you didnt like, yet you believe them now?
You seem to be cherrypicking your sources.
You either trust them or you dont.
You cant accept only what you want to, its an all or nothing deal.
MM; the fact is that you do have cherry pick your sources and cross check with other sources in this day and age. big deal.
revel wrote:MM; the fact is that you do have cherry pick your sources and cross check with other sources in this day and age. big deal.
You are correct, I misspoke.
What I was trying to say is that if you refuse to trust the govt about one thing concerning Iraq, how can you with a straight face say you trust the govt about other things concerning Iraq?
mysteryman wrote:revel wrote:MM; the fact is that you do have cherry pick your sources and cross check with other sources in this day and age. big deal.
You are correct, I misspoke.
What I was trying to say is that if you refuse to trust the govt about one thing concerning Iraq, how can you with a straight face say you trust the govt about other things concerning Iraq?
You don't which is why you have to wade through and compare it with other sources. Since the intellegence took a beating in public image when they meekly went along with the bush adminstration's lead up to the war and the true facts came out; they have been going out of their way to get their intellegence reports accurate inspite of pressure from Cheney or the Bush administration in general.
For example:
Quote:All four officials said information that has emerged recently indicates the Iranians halted their secret program less than 12 months before the 2005 estimate was prepared. Information that led to the new estimate continued to be evaluated until a few weeks ago, the officials said.
In revising their estimate, intelligence officers said they were mindful of "lessons learned" from a 2002 report that overstated the case for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
"We had to show our homework," one said, by justifying the new judgments to intelligence agency leaders who OK'd the final version.
source
And before you say anything Bush has confirmed this report-just denies it changed anything.
Ican; don't say i never post any positive things in Iraq; in fact out of the two of us; I am the only ones who does.
Meanwhile:
Baghdad's Green Zone shelled
Quote:BAGHDAD (AP) ?- Rockets or mortars hit the U.S.-protected Green Zone early Saturday, just a day after powerful Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr ordered his Mahdi Army militia to extend its cease-fire by another six months.
Starting about 6:15 a.m., nearly 10 blasts could be heard in the sprawling area along the Tigris River that houses the U.S. and British embassies, the Iraqi government headquarters and thousands of American troops.
Maj. Brad Leighton, a U.S. military spokesman, confirmed the Green Zone was hit by indirect fire ?- the military's term for a rocket or mortar attack ?- but could not immediately provide more details.
It was the fourth time this week that U.S. outposts in Baghdad appeared to be the targets of rocket or mortar attacks, killing at least six people and wounding both Iraqis and Americans, including at least two U.S. troops.
The flurry of attacks has followed a substantial lull in such assaults as security has increased and violence around the capital has dropped over the last half-year.
Suicide bomber kills four people at mosque in Fallujah
Quote:
Baghdad: Four people were killed and eight wounded when a suicide bomber detonated an explosives-filled vest at a mosque in Fallujah on Friday, the Interior Ministry said.
The bombing took place around mid-day at the entrance of Al Rahman mosque in the centre of the town in Anbar province, it said, adding that a police major was among the wounded.
The US military said on Friday the Iraqi Army discovered 15 bodies in a mass grave near the town of Kazim Al Isrhail.
All of the victims were male, and one was of an Iraqi soldier, who was identified by his Iraqi Army ID card. The bodies are reportedly at least 10 days old, and some of them were found with gun shot wounds to the head. That followed the unearthing of a mass grave in violent Diyala province.
February 23, 2008
Ominous Signs Remain in City Run by Iraqis
By SOLOMON MOORE
BASRA, Iraq ?- This southern port city has been, in effect, on its own since September, when British forces here moved to the outskirts, yielding authority to local leaders. British and American officials say Basra's experiment in self-rule could serve as a model for Iraq's future, but if so ?- many locals and outside advisers say ?- that future remains dark.
What makes the situation in Basra ?- Iraq's second largest city and commercial hub ?- so alarming, they say, is that it is a test of Iraqi rule under relatively optimal conditions: Basra has the nation's best economic base, little ethnic tension within a homogeneous Shiite population and no Western occupation force to inflame nationalist tensions.
Yet the city remains deeply troubled. Disappearances of doctors, teachers and other professionals are common, as are some clashes among competing militias, most of which are linked to political parties. Murder victims include judicial investigators, politicians and tribal sheiks. One especially disturbing trend is the slaying of at least 100 women in the last year, according to the police. The Iraqi authorities have blamed Shiite militiamen for many of those killing, saying the militants had probably deemed the women to be impious.
"Most of the killings are done by gunmen in police cars," said Sheik Khadem al-Ribat, a Basra tribal leader who claims no party membership. He spoke of the militias in an antechamber of his downtown mosque, his voice barely above a whisper. "These cars were given to the political parties. There are supposed to be 16,000 policemen, but we see very few of them on the street, and most of the ones we do see are militiamen dressed as police."
Two dozen Shiite political parties and their respective militias compete, often violently, over control of the oil sector, seaport profits, smuggling operations across the nearby Iranian border and political authority over Iraq's economic nerve center. So while the sectarian tension that has marred life elsewhere is missing here, the strife itself is not.
revel wrote:Ican; don't say i never post any positive things in Iraq; in fact out of the two of us; I am the only ones who does.
Meanwhile:
Baghdad's Green Zone shelled
Quote:BAGHDAD (AP) ?- Rockets or mortars hit the U.S.-protected Green Zone early Saturday, just a day after powerful Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr ordered his Mahdi Army militia to extend its cease-fire by another six months.
Starting about 6:15 a.m., nearly 10 blasts could be heard in the sprawling area along the Tigris River that houses the U.S. and British embassies, the Iraqi government headquarters and thousands of American troops.
Maj. Brad Leighton, a U.S. military spokesman, confirmed the Green Zone was hit by indirect fire ?- the military's term for a rocket or mortar attack ?- but could not immediately provide more details.
It was the fourth time this week that U.S. outposts in Baghdad appeared to be the targets of rocket or mortar attacks, killing at least six people and wounding both Iraqis and Americans, including at least two U.S. troops.
The flurry of attacks has followed a substantial lull in such assaults as security has increased and violence around the capital has dropped over the last half-year.
Suicide bomber kills four people at mosque in Fallujah
Quote:
Baghdad: Four people were killed and eight wounded when a suicide bomber detonated an explosives-filled vest at a mosque in Fallujah on Friday, the Interior Ministry said.
The bombing took place around mid-day at the entrance of Al Rahman mosque in the centre of the town in Anbar province, it said, adding that a police major was among the wounded.
The US military said on Friday the Iraqi Army discovered 15 bodies in a mass grave near the town of Kazim Al Isrhail.
All of the victims were male, and one was of an Iraqi soldier, who was identified by his Iraqi Army ID card. The bodies are reportedly at least 10 days old, and some of them were found with gun shot wounds to the head. That followed the unearthing of a mass grave in violent Diyala province.
And you think these reports are positive things?
How sick are you?
No; MM; I have left positive stories in the past and I left the one in which Ican commented on and which prompted my comments. And then I wrote "meanwhile" and posted the events for today which are not positive I agree; but nevertheless happen. You really stretch to find something to argue about don't you?
MM, Looking back I can see how you would have come to the conclusion you did since I didn't include the positive story nor Ican's response to it when I made the comment and then posted two negative stories. I apologize for saying you were stretching for an argument.
In other news
Per Juan Cole:
Quote:
Turkey, the NATO ally of the US, invaded Iraqi Kurdistan with between 3,000 and 10,000 troops and is facing heavy opposition from Kurdistan Peshmerga forces and from the Kurdish Workers Party paramilitaries. The Turkish military said in a statement 24 PKK rebels and five soldiers were killed in clashes in Iraq. It also said at least 20 rebels were killed in separate aerial attacks.'
The PKK has killed scores of Turkish soldiers in the past six months, and the Turks consider them a terrorist organization.
That was two days ago. Today:
Quote:Sunday, February 24, 2008
37 Killed in Turkish-Kurdish Fighting inside Iraq;
Basra Instability Forces British to Postpone Departure
Turkish military land and air operations inside northern Iraq left 35 PKK guerrillas dead on Saturday, and two Turkish soldiers.
The PKK warned that it would blow up people in Turkish cities if the Turkish army did not withdraw. This threat would be more impressive if they hadn't already been blowing up people in Turkish cities.
Iraqi foreign minister Hoshyar Zebari, himself an Iraqi Kurd, said of the operation, "if it goes on, I think it could destabilise the region, because really one mistake could lead to further escalation."
As if to prove Zebari's point, the leader of Iraqi Kurdistan, Massoud Barzani, warned the Turks of large-scale resistance if they advanced toward populated areas.
www.juancole.com
Cycloptichorn
revel wrote:MM, Looking back I can see how you would have come to the conclusion you did since I didn't include the positive story nor Ican's response to it when I made the comment and then posted two negative stories. I apologize for saying you were stretching for an argument.
Thats OK, and in all fairness I didnt see the word "meanwhile" in the initial post I responded to.
Quote:The Myth of the Surge
Hoping to turn enemies into allies, U.S. forces are arming Iraqis who fought with the insurgents. But it's already starting to backfire. A report from the front lines of the new Iraq
NIR ROSEN
Some excerpts;
Quote:The American forces responsible for overseeing "volunteer" militias like Osama's have no illusions about their loyalty. "The only reason anything works or anybody deals with us is because we give them money," says a young Army intelligence officer. The 2nd Squadron, 2nd Stryker Cavalry Regiment, which patrols Osama's territory, is handing out $32 million to Iraqis in the district, including $6 million to build the towering walls that, in the words of one U.S. officer, serve only to "make Iraqis more divided than they already are." In districts like Dora, the strategy of the surge seems simple: to buy off every Iraqi in sight. All told, the U.S. is now backing more than 600,000 Iraqi men in the security sector ?- more than half the number Saddam had at the height of his power. With the ISVs in place, the Americans are now arming both sides in the civil war. "Iraqi solutions for Iraqi problems," as U.S. strategists like to say. David Kilcullen, the counterinsurgency adviser to Gen. Petraeus, calls it "balancing competing armed interest groups."
But loyalty that can be purchased is by its very nature fickle. Only months ago, members of the Awakening were planting IEDs and ambushing U.S. soldiers. They were snipers and assassins, singing songs in honor of Fallujah and fighting what they viewed as a war of national liberation against the foreign occupiers. These are men the Americans described as terrorists, Saddam loyalists, dead-enders, evildoers, Baathists, insurgents. There is little doubt what will happen when the massive influx of American money stops: Unless the new Iraqi state continues to operate as a vast bribing machine, the insurgent Sunnis who have joined the new militias will likely revert to fighting the ruling Shiites, who still refuse to share power.
"We are essentially supporting a quasi-feudal devolution of authority to armed enclaves, which exist at the expense of central government authority," says Chas Freeman, who served as ambassador to Saudi Arabia under the first President Bush. "Those we are arming and training are arming and training themselves not to facilitate our objectives but to pursue their own objectives vis-à-vis other Iraqis. It means that the sectarian and ethnic conflicts that are now suppressed are likely to burst out with even greater ferocity in the future."
And if it does, and there's a Democrat as president, guess who the conservatives can blame?
Quote:When I go to visit the 172 INP, American officers from the 2-2 SCR admonish me to wear my body armor ?- to protect myself from accidental discharges by the Iraqi police. "I did convoy security in the Sunni Triangle and was hit by numerous IEDs, complex attacks, small arms," Capt. Cox tells me. "But I never felt closer to death than when I was working with Iraqi security forces."
Quote:With American forces now arming both sides in the civil war, the violence in Iraq has once again started to escalate. In January, some 100 members of the new Sunni militias ?- whom the Americans have now taken to calling "the Sons of Iraq" ?- were assassinated in Baghdad and other urban areas. In one attack, a teenage bomber blew himself up at a meeting of Awakening leaders in Anbar Province, killing several members of the group. Most of the attacks came from Al Qaeda and other Sunni factions, some of whom are fighting for positions of power in the new militias.
Quote:But such political maneuvers don't really matter in Iraq. Here, street politics trump any illusory laws passed in the safety of the Green Zone. As the Awakening gains power, Al Qaeda lies dormant throughout Baghdad, the Mahdi Army and other Shiite forces prepare for the next battle, and political assassinations and suicide bombings are an almost daily occurrence. The violence, Arkan says, is getting worse again.
"The situation won't get better," he says softly. An officer of the Iraqi National Police, a man charged with bringing peace to his country, he has been reduced to hiding in his van, unable to speak openly in the very neighborhood he patrols. Thanks to the surge, both the Shiites and the Sunnis now have weapons and legitimacy. And what can come of that, Arkan asks, except more fighting?
"Many people in Sahwa work for Al Qaeda," he says. "The national police are all loyal to the Mahdi Army." He shakes his head. "You work hard to build a house, and somebody blows up your house. Will they accept Sunnis back to Shiite areas and Shiites back to Sunni areas? If someone kills your brother, can you forget his killer?"
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/18722376/the_myth_of_the_surge
Why is it that the media has not shared these information with the world public? Censorship by the Bush criminals?
I think it's ignorance and laziness more than censorship. It's easier to go along with what the military tells them then question them.
That's how we got into this mess; by believing Bush, the one who was suppose to know.