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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 02:17 pm
Quote:

Easily your dumbest claim is that our military is responsible for all the mass murders of non-murders perpetrated in Iraq since we invaded Iraq.


I'm pretty confident that I never made a claim which sounded anything like this. Link or be damned!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 02:24 pm
ican wrote:
Aaha! So that is your position:

(1) Since we cannot completely solve the crime problem, any ideas for partially solving it are "pie in the sky" and constitute simpleton ideas -- "simpleton ideas are just that; unrealistic and simplistic."


"Partially solving" is what has happened since we have established our legal system. Your so-called solutions are not "cure-it-all" solutions. You live in la-la land if you think your solutions hasn't been tried to some realistic degree.

(2) Since we cannot completely solve the terrorist problem (i.e., the problem of the mass murder of non-murderers), any ideas for partially solving it are "pie in the sky" and constitute simpleton ideas -- "simpleton ideas are just that; unrealistic and simplistic."

You haven't been paying attention to the increasing volume of violence and missteps by this administration - including the Bush "surge" that will solve nothing, but increase our casualty rates during and after. We've been "staying the course" for the past four years with worse results.

In other words, it's your advice that if a problem is too difficult to solve completely, there is no value solving it partially. You reek with self-deception.

Here, again, you have been ignorant of how we got to this point of no return to solve this mess. Bush didn't listen to the experts that would have eliminated or minimized the Iraq problem. Instead, he listened to people like Rummy and Cheney who had/has no idea on preventive solutions, and they continue on the road of "stay the course." It's no longer a matter of "solving it partially" while our soldiers gets killed and maimed for a unknown future of Iraq. Bush continued to ask for "solutions," but continued to ignore those provided - until this past week when he decided diplomacy with Syria and Iran was an "acceptable idea." There's no cure for stupid.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 03:13 pm
[ican's coments ]
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican wrote:
Aaha! So that is your position:

(1) Since we cannot completely solve the crime problem, any ideas for partially solving it are "pie in the sky" and constitute simpleton ideas -- "simpleton ideas are just that; unrealistic and simplistic."


"Partially solving" is what has happened since we have established our legal system. Your so-called solutions are not "cure-it-all" solutions. You live in la-la land if you think your solutions hasn't been tried to some realistic degree.

Good! Then we both apparently agree I do not live in la-la land, because I actually do think my partial solutions have already been "tried to some realistic degree" and proven to be actual partial solutions.

(2) Since we cannot completely solve the terrorist problem (i.e., the problem of the mass murder of non-murderers), any ideas for partially solving it are "pie in the sky" and constitute simpleton ideas -- "simpleton ideas are just that; unrealistic and simplistic."

You haven't been paying attention to the increasing volume of violence and missteps by this administration - including the Bush "surge" that will solve nothing, but increase our casualty rates during and after. We've been "staying the course" for the past four years with worse results.

The volume of violence decreased in December from what it was in November, and decreased in January from what it was in December. I do not yet have the data for February.

I duly note that you are predicting:
(1) increasing volume of violence in Iraq;
(2) increasing missteps by this administration.

I bet you are right about (2).


In other words, it's your advice that if a problem is too difficult to solve completely, there is no value solving it partially. You reek with self-deception.

Here, again, you have been ignorant of how we got to this point of no return to solve this mess. Bush didn't listen to the experts that would have eliminated or minimized the Iraq problem. Instead, he listened to people like Rummy and Cheney who had/has no idea on preventive solutions, and they continue on the road of "stay the course." It's no longer a matter of "solving it partially" while our soldiers gets killed and maimed for a unknown future of Iraq. Bush continued to ask for "solutions," but continued to ignore those provided - until this past week when he decided diplomacy with Syria and Iran was an "acceptable idea." There's no cure for stupid.

I know well how we got to this point of no return. I know well it does not have to be a point of no future success. I know well that the cost of failing in Iraq would be intolerable to me-- I don't know about to you.

There is a cure for stupid! Learn how not to be stupid. Then act on what you have learned.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 03:27 pm
ican, Although some of the strategies in Iraq has changed, the full "surge" has not been accomplished, and won't be until the summer months. Whatever lull we see now doesn't mean much for the long term. If you think it does, you haven't been following this war.

Most experts know two things about this surge: 1) they will not be going with sufficient equipment, and 2) they will be going without proper training for this kind of war.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 03:27 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

Easily your dumbest claim is that our military is responsible for all the mass murders of non-murders perpetrated in Iraq since we invaded Iraq.


I'm pretty confident that I never made a claim which sounded anything like this. Link or be damned!

Cycloptichorn

Damn it! Smile

Your confidence constitutes insufficient evidence in light of the truth of the following:
(1) you have repeatedly stated the stupid assertion that one cannot prove a negative;
(2) You have repeatedly made the ignorant claim that al-Qaeda has contributed little to the 2006 and current mass murders of non-murderers in Iraq;
(3) You have claimed al-Qaeda was caused to be in Iraq by the American invasion of Iraq;
(4) You have claimed the Bush administration is responsible for the mass murders of non-murders perpetrated in Iraq since we invaded Iraq.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 03:34 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:

...
Most experts know two things about this surge: 1) they will not be going with sufficient equipment, and 2) they will be going without proper training for this kind of war.

Who all by your definition are "most experts?"
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 03:43 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

Easily your dumbest claim is that our military is responsible for all the mass murders of non-murders perpetrated in Iraq since we invaded Iraq.


I'm pretty confident that I never made a claim which sounded anything like this. Link or be damned!

Cycloptichorn

Damn it! Smile

Your confidence constitutes insufficient evidence in light of the truth of the following:
(1) you have repeatedly stated the stupid assertion that one cannot prove a negative;
(2) You have repeatedly made the ignorant claim that al-Qaeda has contributed little to the 2006 and current mass murders of non-murderers in Iraq;
(3) You have claimed al-Qaeda was caused to be in Iraq by the American invasion of Iraq;
(4) You have claimed the Bush administration is responsible for the mass murders of non-murders perpetrated in Iraq since we invaded Iraq.


But, those are not true statements, but assertions you have made.

Now, you can make them true by linking to my previous statements, but until you do, they are merely your opinions about my opinions.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 03:59 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

Easily your dumbest claim is that our military is responsible for all the mass murders of non-murders perpetrated in Iraq since we invaded Iraq.


I'm pretty confident that I never made a claim which sounded anything like this. Link or be damned!

Cycloptichorn

Damn it! Smile

Your confidence constitutes insufficient evidence in light of the truth of the following:
(1) you have repeatedly stated the stupid assertion that one cannot prove a negative;
(2) You have repeatedly made the ignorant claim that al-Qaeda has contributed little to the 2006 and current mass murders of non-murderers in Iraq;
(3) You have claimed al-Qaeda was caused to be in Iraq by the American invasion of Iraq;
(4) You have claimed the Bush administration is responsible for the mass murders of non-murders perpetrated in Iraq since we invaded Iraq.


But, those are not true statements, but assertions you have made.

Now, you can make them true by linking to my previous statements, but until you do, they are merely your opinions about my opinions.

Cycloptichorn

O yes they are true statements!

They are true statements regardless of whether I go to the trouble of finding links to them--I won't bother. Your claim here that they are not true statements is merely what you claim is your opinion that they are not true statements.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 04:02 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

Easily your dumbest claim is that our military is responsible for all the mass murders of non-murders perpetrated in Iraq since we invaded Iraq.


I'm pretty confident that I never made a claim which sounded anything like this. Link or be damned!

Cycloptichorn

Damn it! Smile

Your confidence constitutes insufficient evidence in light of the truth of the following:
(1) you have repeatedly stated the stupid assertion that one cannot prove a negative;
(2) You have repeatedly made the ignorant claim that al-Qaeda has contributed little to the 2006 and current mass murders of non-murderers in Iraq;
(3) You have claimed al-Qaeda was caused to be in Iraq by the American invasion of Iraq;
(4) You have claimed the Bush administration is responsible for the mass murders of non-murders perpetrated in Iraq since we invaded Iraq.


But, those are not true statements, but assertions you have made.

Now, you can make them true by linking to my previous statements, but until you do, they are merely your opinions about my opinions.

Cycloptichorn

O yes they are true statements!

They are true statements regardless of whether I go to the trouble of finding links to them--I won't bother. Your claim here that they are not true statements is merely what you claim is your opinion that they are not true statements.


Seeing as they are supposedly my comments which reflect my opinion, I am inherently in an infinitely greater position than you to judge the accuracy of the comments, and I say that they are not reflective of my actual comments nor opinions, but exaggerations and lies on your part.

You were the one making positive assertions, not me, Ican. The burden lies upon you to back up your slander, not on me to disprove it.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 04:03 pm
Iraq War ReportU.S. builds Baghdad garrisons to fight violence By Ibon Villelabeitia
Mon Mar 5, 6:15 AM ET

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Barricaded in a small garrison in a Baghdad neighborhood, U.S. soldier Aaron Larson keeps an uneasy eye on the traffic for suicide car bombers.

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A mortar bomb had just landed a few meters away, shaking the sandbagged outpost where some 30 American soldiers are hunkered down with Iraqi police and army under a new security plan to rein in sectarian violence in the Iraqi capital.

"We feel like sitting ducks here," said Larson. "They are watching us all the time. We don't know what they'll do next."

U.S. commanders are moving troops from the relative safety of their sprawling bases and stationing them in small outposts in Baghdad's most violent districts in a pivotal tactical shift.

More than a dozen joint security stations have opened in a fresh approach designed by General David Petraeus, the new U.S. commander in Iraq, a counter-insurgency expert who warns troops to be ready to be "greeted with a handshake or a hand grenade."

The effort, one of the main components of a Baghdad security plan seen as the last chance to avert all-out civil war, aims to break the militants' grip on neighborhoods by expanding troop presence and building on local intelligence.

Rather than launching incursions into strongholds and pulling troops back into their bases, the goal now is to set up 24-hour neighborhood garrisons, where U.S. troops live with their Iraqi counterparts, U.S. commanders said.

The U.S. military will establish around 30 outposts, including one in the Shi'ite militia bastion of Sadr City.

So far, the plan has met little resistance, but it has placed hundreds of U.S. soldiers at greater risk, leaving them more vulnerable to insurgent attacks and in danger of being caught up in the middle of sectarian fighting.

NEIGHBOURHOOD FORTS

From the outside, the outposts look like frontier forts.

Many of these buildings were dilapidated police stations or community halls before they were upgraded. U.S. soldiers crouch in rooftop sniper nests with views of markets and blue-tiled mosque domes. Barbed wire and cement walls protect the buildings from car bombs and rockets.

"We are in the middle of everything," said gunner Josh Barlow, gripping his M240 machine gun at a joint security station in the central neighborhood of Karrada.

"You gotta keep your eyes open all the time. You never know if somebody is just standing or planting a bomb," said Barlow, from Rapid City, South Dakota.

At a base in Rustimaya, east of Baghdad, soldiers enjoy American-style fast food, Internet cafes and even a recent visit by the Buffalo Bills cheerleaders, who signed autographs and posed with ecstatic troops next to the tanks.

But at the spartan joint security stations, soldiers sleep in mud-caked cots, take cold showers in crude bathrooms and eat MREs, or meals-ready-to-eat.

"I hardly get any sleep here," said Private Miguel Burgos, a gunner from Puerto Rico. "I can hear the blasts at night."

During the day, U.S. and Iraqi commanders sort through intelligence tips and coordinate checkpoints. At night, they drink tea together and share family pictures.

"I have taught them some Spanish and learned some Arabic. We sometimes play some soccer in the parking lot," Burgos said.

The outposts offer the Americans a chance to try Iraqi dishes away from their bases, where buffet food is brought in from Kuwait. Falafel sandwiches have become a hit. Iraqis, meanwhile, seem to find American beef jerky peculiar and are resistant to changing their morning omelettes for Cheerios.

American commanders credit a decline in sectarian murders in Baghdad to the "clear, hold and build" approach of the outposts but have warned that militants could be waiting them out.

General Abdul Hamid, police chief for eastern Baghdad, said gunmen will probably sit tight until the Americans leave.

"It's like a water balloon. You press on one side and the water goes to another side," he said.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 04:09 pm
Progress Report
WASHINGTON (AFP) - The number two US military commander in Iraq said Sunday that the security crackdown in Baghdad was slowly progressing but that it would take at least six to nine months to hand security over to Iraqis.

Major General Raymond Odierno told CNN television the new security plan, announced by President George W. Bush on January 10, was still in the "very early stages" but that operations had already begun.

"We're starting to see some progress, but it's very slow," Odierno told CNN's "Late Edition." "We expect it to be because we think this will take months, not weeks, to accomplish."

Iraqis have deployed 18 battalions into the Baghdad area, Odierno said, although they are not at full strength. Seven units are at 55-65 percent strength levels, seven others are at 65-85 percent and the last four battalions are at 95 percent strength, he said.

"They're learning as leaders, they're learning how to deploy forces in and around Baghdad, and we're seeing significant improvement in that as we continue to move forward," Odierno said.

He added that Iraqis are training 7,500 soldiers every five weeks to be used as replacements for the Baghdad units, and that US and Iraqi forces will fight side by side until the right level of security is achieved to hand over the reins to the Iraqis.

"Iraqi-led, coalition forces, Iraqi army forces, Iraqi police, we stay together until we get the right level of security, and then we turn it over to the Iraqi security forces," Odierno said.

"I think that will take some time. I don't want to put an exact time on it but a minimum of six to nine months," he said.

Odierno spoke as a large US-Iraqi force moved into Baghdad's notorious Shiite militia bastion of Sadr City on Sunday, without meeting any armed resistance.

The commander also said US forces were working "extremely close" with tribal leaders in restive Al-Anbar province, which is also part of the new US strategy in Iraq.

"We are having some great success right now in Al-Anbar province, and it has to do with the tribes," he said.

"They understand that they don't want to be associated with Al-Qaeda and Al-Qaeda-associated organizations. Through the last several months when they (were) working with them in some cases, they found them to be -- they were extremely lethal against their own families," Odierno said.

"And they realized that they would like to come in with the coalition and work with the coalition forces to defeat and go against Al-Qaeda," he said.

The largest recruiting drive has taken place in Al-Anbar over the last three months, with more than 1,000 Iraqis joining the army and police each month, he said.

"We've seen a significant movement in Al-Anbar province over the last three or four or five months, and it's continuing to move forward," Odierno said. "We still have a threat out in Al-Anbar province, but we believe now we have a good way ahead working with these tribal leaders."
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 04:18 pm
PLEA FOR HELP
Mon Mar 5, 10:49 AM ET



DAMASCUS (AFP) - Iraqi Vice President Tareq al-Hashemi called on Monday for Arab nations to help end the "sad situation" in his homeland during a visit to neighbouring Syria, itself accused of aiding the insurgency.

"The situation in Iraq is part of Arab national security. It is therefore necessary for Arab and regional efforts to join up to put an urgent end to the sad situation being lived by Iraqis," Hashemi told journalists.

The declaration comes ahead of a March 10 conference on Iraqi security to be attended by UN Security Council permanent members as well as Iraq's neighbours and the United States.

The conference will provide a rare opportunity for Washington to sit down at the same table with arch-foes Iran and Syria with which it has frosty relations.

Hashemi said that during his visit to Syria he would meet senior officials, including President Bashar al-Assad, to examine ways to "move forward relations between the two countries".

Both Washington and Baghdad have accused Damascus of allowing militants to enter Iraq via Syria to fight US-led forces there. Syria denies the charges, citing the challenge of securing its long and porous border.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 04:38 pm
More progress in Iraq.

38 die, 105 hurt in Baghdad market blast
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 05:50 pm
Trust us. Everything's going to be fine in Iraq.

Quote:
"The scene is very tense," the former official said. "They are working round the clock. Endless cups of tea with the Iraqis. But they're still trying to figure out what's the plan. The president is expecting progress. But they're thinking, what does he mean? The plan is changing every minute, as all plans do."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2023865,00.html
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 06:02 pm
Telegraph UK

Quote:
US asks us to pick up litter while city is in ruins, says mayor of Baghdad

By Damien McElroy in Baghdad
Last Updated: 12:49am GMT 04/03/2007

Baghdad's mayor lashed out at the United States yesterday - for spending huge sums on projects to collect rubbish and plant trees while his devastated war-torn city struggles without electricity.

At a meeting in the city's Green Zone the mayor, Sabir al-Isawi, interrupted US officials in the middle of a presentation to key Iraqi officials, to say these schemes are "not what the people want".

He was echoing the feelings of many critics of America's priorities since Baghdad's infrastructure was all but destroyed since the US-led invasion in 2003.

On average, residents get only two hours of electricity a day, and are bitterly angry that the world's most powerful nation has not delivered a single major power plant in four years of occupation.

And hours after yesterday's presentation a high-ranking US official admitted that, despite spending $22 billion on reconstruction across Iraq, the Americans didn't expect Baghdad to have a 24-hour electricity supply until 2013.

At the meeting, Mr al-Isawi said: "I'm sorry to say that there are more important projects that are required by the city. There are essential services required by each district in the city that could be met by building power plants and bridges."

He criticised the US-driven projects because they were "overlapping and so badly planned, that the workers hired are ineffective".

The American project is part of a wider scheme to provide employment for Baghdad youths who might otherwise fall into the grip of insurgent groups still bringing daily chaos and bloodshed to Iraq.

Troop commanders have identified scores of projects, including planting trees, refitting health clinics, rebuilding dilapidated schools, plus establishing a functioning water and sewage system in the capital.

Baghdad has dire problems with domestic waste. Each district of the city has a so-called "Trash Street" where the local residents dump their rubbish.

The mayor himself confirmed that he had ordered seven million refuse bags at a cost of £5 million.

At yesterday's meeting, the US officials welcomed the mayor's input. Brigadier General Vincent Brookes, the deputy commander of multinational forces in Baghdad, said the US would gradually cede control of the work to city officials.

Eric Olsen, a US envoy for Iraqi reconstruction, conceded that the mayor was reflecting a widespread frustration.

But he pleaded with the 12 Iraqi officials present to propose new public works that would meet local needs. "Within a couple of weeks, I hope that it will be Iraqis in here deciding on projects that make a difference to their own future."

Yet, hours after the meeting, Mr Olsen's boss, Joseph Saloom, made the shock admission that the city is not expected to have a proper electricity supply for another six years at least.


Six more years without proper electricity. Why, that place ought to settle down any moment now.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 06:24 pm
Another snippet I still had in a Notepad file:

Quote:
Radio Netherlands Press Review
Tuesday 13 February 2007

[..] "Iraq commemorates a year of 'blind violence' with more violence" is the headline in Trouw.

The paper is referring to the destruction of the Golden Mosque in Samara a year ago. Algemeen Dagblad publishes the same picture and prints equally stark statistics: 34,400 dead in the year of sectarian violence; 540,000 Iraqis have fled their homes; eight out of every ten victims are civilians. Trouw notes that during the live broadcast of Prime Minister al-Maliki's call for unity, bombs could be heard going off in the background.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 06:51 pm
I imagine it a bit distracting to build and operate a power plant while it and you are being blown up.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2007 07:30 am
ican711nm wrote:
I imagine it a bit distracting to build and operate a power plant while it and you are being blown up.


But they can plant trees.

Disgusting; I imagine they are going to use that as a photo op meanwhile ignoring the dead and/or mangled bodies. I can just Laura bush now, "you know the media ignores the good news in Iraq, why, just a few days ago our boys were planting trees..."
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2007 07:39 am
revel wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
I imagine it a bit distracting to build and operate a power plant while it and you are being blown up.


But they can plant trees.

Disgusting; I imagine they are going to use that as a photo op meanwhile ignoring the dead and/or mangled bodies. I can just Laura bush now, "you know the media ignores the good news in Iraq, why, just a few days ago our boys were planting trees..."


Trees aren't high profile targets.

If you can come up with a way to keep terrorists from disrupting the power grid, I am sure the administration would be all ears.

We wait yours and other liberals here wisdom with anticipation on how to solve the problems.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2007 07:42 am
I tell you, I have to admit that some of the criticisms from the conservative about the democrats in congress are deserved. They are wimpy and craven giving in while they have the upper hand.

Waiver for Bush, Benchmarks Sought

Quote:
Senior House Democrats, seeking to placate members of their party from Republican-leaning districts, are pushing a plan that would place restrictions on President Bush's ability to wage the war in Iraq but would allow him to waive them if he publicly justifies his position.

Under the proposal, Bush would also have to set a date to begin troop withdrawals if the Iraqi government fails to meet benchmarks aimed at stabilizing the country that the president laid out in January.


What in the world is the good of benchmarks if Bush can waive them if he "publicly justifies his position."

I would just like to see these democrats say that bush didn't justify his position so he must begin to withdraw troops. I'll never happen, none of it.
0 Replies
 
 

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