9
   

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Oct, 2007 08:40 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
What I and a majority also want is for us to win and succeed in Iraq.


Incorrect. Large majorities want US troops out whether or not your definition of success is achieved; and there's plenty of data to support this.

Cycloptichorn

You have not provided any evidence that substantiates this claim of yours. I have heard numerous poll results that support my claim. So first you supply your evidence that substantiates your claim. Then and only then will I supply my evidence that substantiates my claim.

I'll be back later! So you have plenty of time to assemble your evidence.


Don't even need time.. Here:

http://pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

A quick perusal will show you that there are no majorities which wish for US troops to remain in Iraq until peace has been achieved. There are no majorities which are willing to keep troops there for longer then 2 more years no matter what.

Most support a phased withdrawal but not one which is dependent on nebulous goals.

Present your evidence.

Cycloptichorn

You claimed: "Large majorities want US troops out whether or not [ican's] definition of success is achieved; and there's plenty of data to support this."

The only polling results you referenced that relate to your claim are listed below:

Quote:

ABC News/Washington Post Poll. Sept. 27-30, 2007. N=1,114 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults). Fieldwork by TNS.

...


"Do you think the United States should keep its military forces in Iraq until civil order is restored there, even if that means continued U.S. military casualties; OR, do you think the United States should withdraw its military forces from Iraq in order to avoid further U.S. military casualties, even if that means civil order is not restored there?" Options rotated

.

Keep Forces ..... Withdraw Forces ..... Unsure
........ % .................... % ...................... %
9/27-30/07
......... 43 .................... 54 ...................... 3
7/18-21/07
......... 39 .................... 59 ...................... 3

...
Your evidence is inadequate, because this, the only almost pertinent question, is worded incompletely. To be pertinent to your claim, this question had to have been worded:

"Do you think the United States should keep its military forces in Iraq until civil order is restored there, even if that means continued U.S. military casualties; OR, do you think the United States should withdraw its military forces from Iraq in order to avoid further U.S. military casualties, even if that means" we will not win and succeed in Iraq?

Your evidence is inadequate, because this question, was not asked in October. To be pertinent to your claim, this question had to have been asked in October after it was more generally known that we are making good progress toward our goal of winning and succeeding in Iraq.

Your evidence is inadequate, because 54% in the last week of September is not a large majority, in a poll that is accurate roughly + or - 3%.

Your evidence is inadequate, because from about the middle of July to the last week in September the poll results dropped from 59% to 54%. The poll results, if the question were asked in October, may have shown that less than 50% want our forces withdrawn "even if that means"
we will not win and succeed in Iraq.

I will supply my evidence tomorrow that what a majority also want is for us to win and succeed in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Oct, 2007 08:50 pm
hamburger wrote:
ican keeps repeating :

Quote:
We must win and succeed in Iraq, because we Americans will suffer significant losses of our freedoms, if we do not win and succeed in Iraq.


i wonder what words of wisdom ican can offer the iraq veterans who spoke to admiral mullen ?

as one of them said :
Quote:
"When it becomes a burden to my family, sir, that's repulsive," said the captain, who, like his fellow officers, could not be quoted by name without granting permission.


another one said that his wife often can't find a doctor when their child gets sick .

it seems to me that if those soldiers "... must win and succeed in Iraq, because we Americans will suffer significant losses of our freedoms, if we do not win and succeed in Iraq ..." as ican says , they should expect the full and unstinting support of america .
a/t to those soldiers that kind of support is missing . surely , those defending the country should not have to worry about the small things in the lifes of their families , should they ?

if "We must win and succeed in Iraq" is of paramount importance , should it not be just as important to say : "we must support our troops and their families fully " ?
from what i keep reading , something seems to be missing .
hbg

YES, because winning and succeeding in Iraq "is of paramount importance," it is just as important that "we must support our troops and their families fully" adequately.

The incompetence of the present administration in accomplishing this does not change one iota the fact that winning and succeeding in Iraq "is of paramount importance,"
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 08:06 am
An Airstrike a Day Won't Keep Insurgents at Bay
It might mean fewer dead Americans, though.
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Wednesday, Oct. 24, 2007, at 7:02 PM ET

This month has seen the smallest number of Americans killed in Iraq than any other month since March 2006. But the reasons may have less to do with progress in the war than with the way we're now fighting it.

Just 29 U.S. military personnel have died in Iraq in October so far?-down from 65 in September, 84 in August, 78 in July, 101 in June … You get the picture: Fewer, in most cases far fewer, than half as many American soldiers have died this month than in any previous month all year.

However, some perspective is warranted. First, all told, 2007 has been a horrible year for American lives lost in this war?-832 to date, more than the 822 lost in all of 2006, and, by the time the year ends, almost certainly more than the 846 killed in 2005 or the 849 in 2004.

True, this month marks the second month in a row in which fatalities have declined, and that's noteworthy. But it doesn't quite constitute a trend, much less an occasion for celebrating.

Second, the slight increase in American fatalities this year, up until recently, is no surprise. When Gen. David Petraeus, the U.S. commander in Iraq, announced a shift to a counterinsurgency strategy?-in which his troops would move more aggressively against militias and live among the Iraqi people instead of hunkering down in their massive bases?-he acknowledged that the strategy carried risks and that more American casualties would be one of the consequences.

So, what accounts for the decline in American deaths since the summer? It's hard to say for sure, but one little-reported cause is almost certainly a shift in U.S. tactics from fighting on the ground to bombing from the air.

An illustration of this shift occurred on Sunday, when U.S. soldiers were searching for a leader of a kidnapping ring in Baghdad's Sadr City. The soldiers came under fire from a building. Rather than engage in dangerous door-to-door conflict, they called in air support. American planes flew overhead and simply bombed the building, killing several of the fighters but also at least six innocent civilians. (The bad guy got away.)

In other words, though the shift means greater safety for our ground troops, it also generates more local hostility. Bombing urban targets from the air inevitably means killing more innocent bystanders. This makes some of the bystanders' relatives yearn for vengeance. And it makes many Iraqis?-relatives, neighbors, and others watching the news of the attack on television?-less trusting of the American troops who are supposedly protecting them.

In a conventional war, these consequences might be deemed unavoidable side-effects. But in a counterinsurgency campaign, where the point is to sway the hearts and minds of the population, wreaking such damage is self-defeating.

The U.S. Army's field manual on counterinsurgency, which Gen. Petraeus supervised shortly before he returned to Iraq, makes the point explicitly:

Quote:
An air strike can cause collateral damage that turns people against the host-nation government and provides insurgents with a major propaganda victory. Even when justified under the law of war, bombings that result in civilian casualties can bring media coverage that works to the insurgents' benefits. … For these reasons, commanders should consider the use of air strikes carefully during [counterinsurgency] operations, neither disregarding them outright nor employing them excessively.


Yet since the surge began and Gen. Petraeus shifted the strategy to counterinsurgency, the number of U.S. airstrikes has soared.

From January to September of this year, according to unclassified data, U.S. Air Force pilots in Iraq have flown 996 sorties that involved dropping munitions. By comparison, in all of 2006, they flew just 229 such sorties?-one-quarter as many. In 2005, they flew 404; in 2004, they flew 285.

In other words, in the first nine months of 2007, Air Force planes dropped munitions on targets in Iraq more often than in the previous three years combined.

More telling still, the number of airstrikes soared most dramatically at about the same time that U.S. troop fatalities declined. (Click here for month-by-month figures.)

It's not clear how many Iraqi civilians have been killed or injured as a result of these airstrikes. (Estimating civilian deaths is a difficult enterprise in any war, especially this one, where so much of the country is inaccessible.) However, it's a fair assessment that the numbers have risen substantially this past year.

The research group Iraq Body Count estimates that 417 Iraqi civilians died from January to September of this year as a result of airstrikes. This is only a bit less than the estimated 452 deaths caused by airstrikes in the previous two years combined. (These numbers are almost certainly too low, but they probably reflect the trends.)

It is a natural temptation to try to fight the Iraqi insurgents from the air. The fact is, the "surge"?-an extra 30,000 U.S. troops sent to Iraq on top of the existing 130,000?-was never enough to make a decisive difference. As the troops assumed a more aggressive posture against the insurgents, it was expected that they would find themselves in difficult spots, that they would take more casualties; and one thing American soldiers are trained to do in such circumstances is to call in air support. No one can blame them for protecting themselves.

However, air support has its limits. The senior officers of the U.S. Air Force, seeing which way the winds are blowing in modern warfare and Pentagon war planning, have been trying to figure out how to adapt to the art and science of counterinsurgency. Recently, they commissioned the RAND Corp. to come up with ideas. The resulting report emphasized the role that the Air Force could play in providing mobility, logistics, and medical evacuation. However, on Page 147 of the 150-page report, the authors delivered the bad news:

Quote:
Although USAF [U.S. Air Force] can deliver relatively small weapons with great precision, it still lacks options to neutralize individual adversaries in close proximity to noncombatants or friendly personnel, to control crowds, or to prevent movement of people on foot through complex urban terrain.


The old adage about warfare?-that it's easy to kill people, hard to kill a particular person?-is doubly true of aerial warfare. And in counterinsurgency warfare, the consequences are counterproductive.

This leads to the critical question: How, in recent months, are the Iraqi people perceiving the U.S. military presence? How are they gauging the chance of success? Do they welcome the troops, or do they want them to leave?

More on this tomorrow.

Fred Kaplan writes the "War Stories" column for Slate. He can be reached at [email protected].

Article URL: http://www.slate.com/id/2176464/
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 09:33 am
From xingu's article: "In other words, though the shift means greater safety for our ground troops, it also generates more local hostility."

This has been my contention all along; more innocent Iraqis dead means more hostility from the Iraqis toward America and Americans. It's a lose-lose proposition no matter how one wishes to interpret "less American casualties." It's short-sighted.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 12:19 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
What I and a majority also want is for us to win and succeed in Iraq.


Incorrect. Large majorities want US troops out whether or not your definition of success is achieved; and there's plenty of data to support this.

Cycloptichorn

You have not provided any evidence that substantiates this claim of yours. I have heard numerous poll results that support my claim. So first you supply your evidence that substantiates your claim. Then and only then will I supply my evidence that substantiates my claim.

I'll be back later! So you have plenty of time to assemble your evidence.


Don't even need time.. Here:

http://pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

A quick perusal will show you that there are no majorities which wish for US troops to remain in Iraq until peace has been achieved. There are no majorities which are willing to keep troops there for longer then 2 more years no matter what.

Most support a phased withdrawal but not one which is dependent on nebulous goals.

Present your evidence.

Cycloptichorn

You claimed: "Large majorities want US troops out whether or not [ican's] definition of success is achieved; and there's plenty of data to support this."

The only polling results you referenced that relate to your claim are listed below:

Quote:

ABC News/Washington Post Poll. Sept. 27-30, 2007. N=1,114 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults). Fieldwork by TNS.

...


"Do you think the United States should keep its military forces in Iraq until civil order is restored there, even if that means continued U.S. military casualties; OR, do you think the United States should withdraw its military forces from Iraq in order to avoid further U.S. military casualties, even if that means civil order is not restored there?" Options rotated

.

Keep Forces ..... Withdraw Forces ..... Unsure
........ % .................... % ...................... %
9/27-30/07
......... 43 .................... 54 ...................... 3
7/18-21/07
......... 39 .................... 59 ...................... 3

...
Your evidence is inadequate, because this, the only almost pertinent question, is worded incompletely. To be pertinent to your claim, this question had to have been worded:

"Do you think the United States should keep its military forces in Iraq until civil order is restored there, even if that means continued U.S. military casualties; OR, do you think the United States should withdraw its military forces from Iraq in order to avoid further U.S. military casualties, even if that means" we will not win and succeed in Iraq?

Your evidence is inadequate, because this question, was not asked in October. To be pertinent to your claim, this question had to have been asked in October after it was more generally known that we are making good progress toward our goal of winning and succeeding in Iraq.

Your evidence is inadequate, because 54% in the last week of September is not a large majority, in a poll that is accurate roughly + or - 3%.

Your evidence is inadequate, because from about the middle of July to the last week in September the poll results dropped from 59% to 54%. The poll results, if the question were asked in October, may have shown that less than 50% want our forces withdrawn "even if that means"
we will not win and succeed in Iraq.

I will supply my evidence tomorrow that what a majority also want is for us to win and succeed in Iraq.

The fact that Congress has not even attempted to defund the Iraq war like it did the Vietnam war, clearly implies that Congress is aware that a majority of Americans want us to win and succeed in Iraq before we get out of Iraq.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 12:24 pm
ican711nm wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
What I and a majority also want is for us to win and succeed in Iraq.


Incorrect. Large majorities want US troops out whether or not your definition of success is achieved; and there's plenty of data to support this.

Cycloptichorn

You have not provided any evidence that substantiates this claim of yours. I have heard numerous poll results that support my claim. So first you supply your evidence that substantiates your claim. Then and only then will I supply my evidence that substantiates my claim.

I'll be back later! So you have plenty of time to assemble your evidence.


Don't even need time.. Here:

http://pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

A quick perusal will show you that there are no majorities which wish for US troops to remain in Iraq until peace has been achieved. There are no majorities which are willing to keep troops there for longer then 2 more years no matter what.

Most support a phased withdrawal but not one which is dependent on nebulous goals.

Present your evidence.

Cycloptichorn

You claimed: "Large majorities want US troops out whether or not [ican's] definition of success is achieved; and there's plenty of data to support this."

The only polling results you referenced that relate to your claim are listed below:

Quote:

ABC News/Washington Post Poll. Sept. 27-30, 2007. N=1,114 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults). Fieldwork by TNS.

...


"Do you think the United States should keep its military forces in Iraq until civil order is restored there, even if that means continued U.S. military casualties; OR, do you think the United States should withdraw its military forces from Iraq in order to avoid further U.S. military casualties, even if that means civil order is not restored there?" Options rotated

.

Keep Forces ..... Withdraw Forces ..... Unsure
........ % .................... % ...................... %
9/27-30/07
......... 43 .................... 54 ...................... 3
7/18-21/07
......... 39 .................... 59 ...................... 3

...
Your evidence is inadequate, because this, the only almost pertinent question, is worded incompletely. To be pertinent to your claim, this question had to have been worded:

"Do you think the United States should keep its military forces in Iraq until civil order is restored there, even if that means continued U.S. military casualties; OR, do you think the United States should withdraw its military forces from Iraq in order to avoid further U.S. military casualties, even if that means" we will not win and succeed in Iraq?

Your evidence is inadequate, because this question, was not asked in October. To be pertinent to your claim, this question had to have been asked in October after it was more generally known that we are making good progress toward our goal of winning and succeeding in Iraq.

Your evidence is inadequate, because 54% in the last week of September is not a large majority, in a poll that is accurate roughly + or - 3%.

Your evidence is inadequate, because from about the middle of July to the last week in September the poll results dropped from 59% to 54%. The poll results, if the question were asked in October, may have shown that less than 50% want our forces withdrawn "even if that means"
we will not win and succeed in Iraq.

I will supply my evidence tomorrow that what a majority also want is for us to win and succeed in Iraq.

The fact that Congress has not even attempted to defund the Iraq war like it did the Vietnam war, clearly implies that Congress is aware that a majority of Americans want us to win and succeed in Iraq before we get out of Iraq.


A combination of unsourced Assertion and Projection on your part; no such implication is clear.

Congress doesn't want to be blamed for losing the war; that's a more likely scenario, b/c it's exactly what the right-wing has threatened to do.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 12:40 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:


...

The fact that Congress has not even attempted to defund the Iraq war like it did the Vietnam war, clearly implies that Congress is aware that a majority of Americans want us to win and succeed in Iraq before we get out of Iraq.


A combination of unsourced Assertion and Projection on your part; no such implication is clear.

Congress doesn't want to be blamed for losing the war; that's a more likely scenario, b/c it's exactly what the right-wing has threatened to do.

Cycloptichorn

Now ask yourself the obvious question. Why doesn't Congress want to be blamed for losing the Iraq war? Could it be that Congress knows damn well that a majority of Americans want us to win and succeed in Iraq before we get out of Iraq? Of course that's what Congress knows. Back when Congress defunded the Vietnam war, a majority of Americans wanted us to leave Vietnam whether we won there or not.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 12:43 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:


...

The fact that Congress has not even attempted to defund the Iraq war like it did the Vietnam war, clearly implies that Congress is aware that a majority of Americans want us to win and succeed in Iraq before we get out of Iraq.


A combination of unsourced Assertion and Projection on your part; no such implication is clear.

Congress doesn't want to be blamed for losing the war; that's a more likely scenario, b/c it's exactly what the right-wing has threatened to do.

Cycloptichorn

Now ask yourself the obvious question. Why doesn't Congress want to be blamed for losing the Iraq war? Could it be that Congress knows damn well that a majority of Americans want us to win and succeed in Iraq before we get out of Iraq? Of course that's what Congress knows. Back when Congress defunded the Vietnam war, a majority of Americans wanted us to leave Vietnam whether we won there or not.


You say 'of course' but that's just a combination of assertion and projection on your part.

I believe that the Dems in congress believe that people like you, and the Republicans in Congress, would blame them for defunding the war, claiming that it will leave troops without bullets, B/c Bush wouldn't pull them out of Iraq.

This is likely to have some traction with Joe Sixpack, as people who don't follow politics are known to be susceptible to soundbites.

Ending the war through forced defunding is the messiest and least productive way possible to end the war. The Dems don't want to go down that road for a variety of reasons, but it sure isn't because they realize most Americans want us to stay until we win - which is defined how, and how long is that going to take, and how much is it going to cost, exactly?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 01:07 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:


...

The fact that Congress has not even attempted to defund the Iraq war like it did the Vietnam war, clearly implies that Congress is aware that a majority of Americans want us to win and succeed in Iraq before we get out of Iraq.


A combination of unsourced Assertion and Projection on your part; no such implication is clear.

Congress doesn't want to be blamed for losing the war; that's a more likely scenario, b/c it's exactly what the right-wing has threatened to do.

Cycloptichorn

Now ask yourself the obvious question. Why doesn't Congress want to be blamed for losing the Iraq war? Could it be that Congress knows damn well that a majority of Americans want us to win and succeed in Iraq before we get out of Iraq? Of course that's what Congress knows. Back when Congress defunded the Vietnam war, a majority of Americans wanted us to leave Vietnam whether we won there or not.


You say 'of course' but that's just a combination of assertion and projection on your part.

I believe that the Dems in congress believe that people like you, and the Republicans in Congress, would blame them for defunding the war, claiming that it will leave troops without bullets, B/c Bush wouldn't pull them out of Iraq.

This is likely to have some traction with Joe Sixpack, as people who don't follow politics are known to be susceptible to soundbites.

Ending the war through forced defunding is the messiest and least productive way possible to end the war. The Dems don't want to go down that road for a variety of reasons, but it sure isn't because they realize most Americans want us to stay until we win - which is defined how, and how long is that going to take, and how much is it going to cost, exactly?

Cycloptichorn

This entire argument of yours is nothing more than "a combination of assertion and projection" by you.

I have repeatedly defined the USA winning and succeeding in Iraq. Here's a more detailed definition. The USA wins and succeeds in Iraq when the daily rate of violent deaths in Iraq decreases below 30, remains less than 30, while we are removing our troops, and remains less than 30 for at least a year after we have completed our departure.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 01:11 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:


...

The fact that Congress has not even attempted to defund the Iraq war like it did the Vietnam war, clearly implies that Congress is aware that a majority of Americans want us to win and succeed in Iraq before we get out of Iraq.


A combination of unsourced Assertion and Projection on your part; no such implication is clear.

Congress doesn't want to be blamed for losing the war; that's a more likely scenario, b/c it's exactly what the right-wing has threatened to do.

Cycloptichorn

Now ask yourself the obvious question. Why doesn't Congress want to be blamed for losing the Iraq war? Could it be that Congress knows damn well that a majority of Americans want us to win and succeed in Iraq before we get out of Iraq? Of course that's what Congress knows. Back when Congress defunded the Vietnam war, a majority of Americans wanted us to leave Vietnam whether we won there or not.


You say 'of course' but that's just a combination of assertion and projection on your part.

I believe that the Dems in congress believe that people like you, and the Republicans in Congress, would blame them for defunding the war, claiming that it will leave troops without bullets, B/c Bush wouldn't pull them out of Iraq.

This is likely to have some traction with Joe Sixpack, as people who don't follow politics are known to be susceptible to soundbites.

Ending the war through forced defunding is the messiest and least productive way possible to end the war. The Dems don't want to go down that road for a variety of reasons, but it sure isn't because they realize most Americans want us to stay until we win - which is defined how, and how long is that going to take, and how much is it going to cost, exactly?

Cycloptichorn

This entire argument of yours is nothing more than "a combination of assertion and projection" by you.

I have repeatedly defined the USA winning and succeeding in Iraq. Here's a more detailed definition. The USA wins and succeeds in Iraq when the daily rate of violent deaths in Iraq decreases below 30, remains less than 30, while we are removing our troops, and remains less than 30 for at least a year after we have completed our departure.


Okay, that's the goal - what's the plan?

My guess is the words 'stay the course.'

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 01:51 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:


...

The fact that Congress has not even attempted to defund the Iraq war like it did the Vietnam war, clearly implies that Congress is aware that a majority of Americans want us to win and succeed in Iraq before we get out of Iraq.


A combination of unsourced Assertion and Projection on your part; no such implication is clear.

Congress doesn't want to be blamed for losing the war; that's a more likely scenario, b/c it's exactly what the right-wing has threatened to do.

Cycloptichorn

Now ask yourself the obvious question. Why doesn't Congress want to be blamed for losing the Iraq war? Could it be that Congress knows damn well that a majority of Americans want us to win and succeed in Iraq before we get out of Iraq? Of course that's what Congress knows. Back when Congress defunded the Vietnam war, a majority of Americans wanted us to leave Vietnam whether we won there or not.


You say 'of course' but that's just a combination of assertion and projection on your part.

I believe that the Dems in congress believe that people like you, and the Republicans in Congress, would blame them for defunding the war, claiming that it will leave troops without bullets, B/c Bush wouldn't pull them out of Iraq.

This is likely to have some traction with Joe Sixpack, as people who don't follow politics are known to be susceptible to soundbites.

Ending the war through forced defunding is the messiest and least productive way possible to end the war. The Dems don't want to go down that road for a variety of reasons, but it sure isn't because they realize most Americans want us to stay until we win - which is defined how, and how long is that going to take, and how much is it going to cost, exactly?

Cycloptichorn

This entire argument of yours is nothing more than "a combination of assertion and projection" by you.

I have repeatedly defined the USA winning and succeeding in Iraq. Here's a more detailed definition. The USA wins and succeeds in Iraq when the daily rate of violent deaths in Iraq decreases below 30, remains less than 30, while we are removing our troops, and remains less than 30 for at least a year after we have completed our departure.


Okay, that's the goal - what's the plan?

My guess is the words 'stay the course.'

Cycloptichorn

Exterminate al-Qaeda and other such malignancies in Iraq, while training and motivating the Iraqi people to without our help exterminate al-Qaeda and other such malignancies in Iraq as quickly as they discover such malignancies.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 02:39 pm
Those are goals. How do you plan to accomplish those goals?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 03:25 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Those are goals. How do you plan to accomplish those goals?

Cycloptichorn

Smile

NO!

Those are objectives for meeting the goal.

Tasks are for achieving objectives.

Actions are for accomplishing tasks.

The US military and the Iraq military together have already demonstrated they already know how to make progress, respectively, to meet, achieve and accomplish the above without any direction from me.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 03:30 pm
Doesn't matter much when the Iraqi government is broken and not interested in reconciling their differences between the clans.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 06:06 pm
ican wrote :

Quote:
YES, because winning and succeeding in Iraq "is of paramount importance," it is just as important that "we must support our troops and their families fully" adequately.


but what is the reality ?
is it what those soldiers were telling admiral mullen - and what assurances was he able to give them in turn ?
hbg
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 06:21 pm
I'm not sure what's more important about this war in Iraq, but many things are abundantly clear.

1. This war has lasted longer than WWII.
2. Veterans are being short-changed on health care and other benefits after they return home.
3. The national guard from Minneapolis are being cheated out of benefits by not meeting the 730 day requirement - cutting them short by one day.
4. The government of Iraq is nowhere near being an effective government; one of the basic requirements for success in that country.
5. Bush has been an incompetent Commander In Chief who's choice to run the military has been dismal failures.
6. We are no longer in Iraq to a) remove WMDs, or b) to remove Saddam.
7. The majority of Americans want our troops to come home.
8. We're spending over 2.7 billion dollars every week in Iraq with no sign of an exit strategy.
9. If we're supposed to be fighting world terrorism in Iraq, it surely has produced the opposite; it increased it ten-fold.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 06:29 pm
How Are We Doing?
What Iraqis think of the U.S. occupation.
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Thursday, Oct. 25, 2007, at 8:12 PM ET

Beyond the disputes over whether and why Iraqi and American casualties are up or down (or up and down), the status of the war?-specifically, the success or failure of the "surge"?-comes down to two issues: security and trust. Do the Iraqi people feel more secure? Do they trust their government, their police, and the U.S. occupation forces?

These are the critical questions in a counterinsurgency campaign, in which the goal is not so much to kill insurgents (though that's part of it) but rather to win the allegiance of the population in order to deny the insurgents support and sanctuary.

The only way to know whether this is succeeding is to ask the Iraqi people. Their answers are not assuring.

It is, of course, hard to gauge popular opinion in a war-torn country while a war is still going on. However, ABC; BBC; NHK; D3 Systems of Vienna, Va.; and KA Research of Istanbul, Turkey; jointly undertook an effort to do so in early March and again in late August of this year. While all such polls have their limits, this one seems as close to truth as we're going to get. (For their methodology, click here.)

Anthony Cordesman, chief military analyst at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, summarized the poll's findings in a 51-page report last week. I highly recommend a thorough reading, though its gist can be summarized as follows:

The Iraqis don't much like us or trust us. They see us as more a threat than a protector. Their hostility has, by and large, worsened in recent months. Yet, while the vast majority of Iraqis want the American troops (and their few remaining coalition partners) to leave at some point, most of them don't want us to leave just yet.

Perhaps the poll's most dismaying finding is the dramatic deepening of the Iraqi people's pessimism. In a similar poll taken in November 2005, two-thirds of those surveyed said life was getting better. In March 2007, this figure fell to 35 percent. In August, it dropped further to 29 percent.

Asked about the effect that the surge has had on security in the six months leading up to August, 22 percent of all Iraqis surveyed said the situation had improved, but 30 percent said it had worsened; 42 percent said it had no effect at all. Among Shiites, the figures were roughly the same (30 percent said better, 20 percent said worse, 48 percent said no effect). But for all the talk of a "Sunni awakening," only 7 percent of Sunni Arabs said the surge had improved security, 55 percent said conditions had worsened, and 38 percent said nothing had changed. Even the Kurds, the clearest beneficiaries of America's military presence, were divided between those who thought the surge had made things better (48 percent) and those who thought it made no difference (47 percent). (Just 6 percent of them thought it made things worse.)

More telling still were the results when Iraqis were asked?-in March and again in August?-whether security conditions were "good" or "bad" in their own neighborhoods. Respondents in four provinces said security had improved?-though majorities in all but one province still said conditions were bad. (The highlight here, as might be expected, is Anbar province, where the percentage of those saying security is bad dropped from 100 percent in March to 61 percent in August.) However, in all the other areas, the percentages of those who replied "bad" went up between those two months?-and, in most cases, went up sharply.

Compared with the poll last March, the August poll revealed more Iraqis saying they knew of kidnappings and car bombings in their neighborhoods in all parts of the country.

As for how they view us, except in the Kurdish provinces, the vast majority of those surveyed think the United States is doing a bad job in protecting Iraqis and in providing basic services.

More alarming, 57 percent of Iraqis think that it is acceptable to attack American soldiers. That figure is up from 51 percent in March and a mere 17 percent back in February 2004. (Only 7 percent of Kurds agree with this sentiment; if they are removed from the poll, the hostility is more glowering still. Half of Shiites think it's all right to attack Americans, up from 35 percent in March; 94 percent of our new allies the Sunni Arabs think it's fine to do so, statistically unchanged from the 93 percent who thought so back in March.)

So much for our perceived legitimacy as an occupying power.

The Iraqis don't look so kindly on their own leaders, either. In March, 49 percent of those surveyed said they had confidence in the Iraqi central government. In August, that figure had fallen to 39 percent.

The poll contains some good news, too. The image of the Iraqi army and police forces is improving. In March, when Iraqis were asked who was most in command of security in their area at that time, a majority in several cities and provinces said nobody was in command. When the question was asked again in August, a plurality said the Iraqi security forces were. (Fewer Iraqis, across the country, said U.S. forces were.)

In March, when Iraqis were asked whom they blamed most for the violence, a majority blamed the United States. In the August poll, a vast array of entities gets considerable blame; none of them, including America, dominates the list.

But then the question arises, just as it arises in discussions stateside: What is to be done? The answer is muddled, but it is fairly clear what most Iraqis want not to be done. Nearly all of them want the Americans to leave at some point?-when their government is stronger or when security is better or when their army can act independently. But most of them don't want us to go home just yet.

Nationwide, the percentage of those who do want us to leave now has grown, from 35 percent in March to 47 percent in August, but they still fall short of a majority. In three areas (Basra, Kirkuk, and Tamim), a slight majority (51 percent to 55 percent) wants us and other members of the coalition to go now. In only two provinces does a substantial majority want us out immediately: Ninevah (67 percent) and?-oddly, given the alliance we've struck with the tribal leaders there?-Anbar (70 percent). In most provinces, only one-quarter to two-fifths feel that way. Among Kurds, it's more like one-tenth.

And so, in this regard, Iraqis are not so different from Americans: They hate the war, they hate the occupation, but they don't know what to do about it; they don't know how to bring it to an end without very possibly sowing still greater destruction.

Here is the poll's description of its methodology:

This survey was conducted for ABC News, the BBC and NHK by D3 Systems of Vienna, Va., and KA Research Ltd. of Istanbul, Turkey. Interviews were conducted in person, in Arabic or Kurdish, among a random national sample of 2,212 Iraqis aged 18 and older from Aug. 17 to Aug. 24, 2007.

Four-hundred-fifty-seven sampling points were distributed proportionate to population size in each of Iraq's 18 provinces, then in 101 of 102 districts within the provinces (excluding Sinjar district in Ninevah province, which was not accessible because of security concerns at the time of the survey), then by simple random sampling among Iraq's nearly 11,000 villages or neighborhoods, with urban/rural stratification at each stage.

Maps or grids were used to select random starting points within each sampling point, with household selection by random route/random interval and within-household selection by the "next-birthday" method. An average of five interviews were conducted per sampling point. Sixteen of the 457 sampling points were inaccessible for security reasons and were substituted with randomly selected replacements.

Interviews were conducted by 117 trained Iraqi interviewers with 30 supervisors. Sixty-nine percent of the interviews were supervised or reviewed by supervisors?-44 percent by direct observation, 16 percent by revisits and nine percent by phone. All questionnaires were subject to further quality-control checks.

In addition to the national sample, oversamples were drawn in Anbar province, Sadr City, Basra city and Kirkuk city to allow for more reliable analysis in those areas. Population data came from 2005 estimates by the Iraq Ministry of Planning. The sample was weighted by sex, age, education, urban/rural status and population of province.

The survey had a contact rate of 93 percent and a cooperation rate of 65 percent for a net response rate of 60 percent. Including an estimated design effect of 1.51, the results have a margin of sampling error of 2.5 percentage points at the 95 percent confidence level.

Some of these sampling methods, under these circumstances, are bound to cause imperfections, but the poll's organizers seem to have navigated the obstacles as honestly as can be expected. For instance, they note that, if an area was inaccessible, they chose another area randomly (as opposed to moving on to the adjoining area, a step that would have been easier but would also have compromised the randomness necessary for such surveys). I have no way of calculating whether the number of "sampling points" is adequate or whether the methods really do result in a sampling error of plus or minus 2.5 percent. But I am impressed by the recitation of quality-control checks?-something that was missing from, say, the Lancet surveys on Iraqi civilian casualties.

It's also worth emphasizing that this poll was taken in mid-to-late August. It's conceivable that sentiments have changed?-though who knows in what direction?-in the intervening two months.

Fred Kaplan writes the "War Stories" column for Slate. He can be reached at [email protected].

Article URL: http://www.slate.com/id/2176628/
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 08:01 pm
Iraqis being angry at Americans because we have been bungling and taking too long solving the Iraq problem, does not equate to Iraqis wanting Americans to leave so that Iraqis will be freer to kill each other. What Iraqis want most is for the killing of Iraqis by al-Qaeda and other such malignancies to stop, or at least be sinificantly reduced.

__________________________________________________________

A Month by Month, Daily Average of IBC's Count of Violent Deaths in Iraq, After April 2007:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

May = 3,755 / 31 = ………………... 121 per day

…………….. Surge fully operational in June ……………..

June = 2,386 / 30 = …………......… 80 per day.
July = 2,077 / 31 = …………......... 67 per day.
August = 2,084 / 31 = ……...…..... 67 per day.
September = 1,333 / 30 = ……….. 44 per day.
October = 244 / 5 = ……………….... 49 per day.*

November = ----? / 30 = ----? per day.**
December = ----? / 31 = ----? per day.**


… *Data currently available for only first 5 days of this month.
… **Data not yet available.


Daily Average Violent Deaths in Iraq--PRE AND POST JANUARY 1, 2003:
PRE = 1/1/1979 - 12/31/2002 = 1,229,210/ 8,766 days = 140 per day;
POST = 1/1/2003 - 10/05/2007 = 82,370/1,739 days = …..…. 47 per day;
PRE / POST = 140/47 = 2.96.

We must win and succeed in Iraq, because we Americans will suffer significant losses of our freedoms, if we do not win and succeed in Iraq.
___________________________________________________________
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Oct, 2007 12:38 pm
A Month by Month, Daily Average of IBC's Count of Violent Deaths in Iraq, After April 2007:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
___________________________________________________________

May = 3,755 / 31 = ………………... 121 per day

…………….. Surge fully operational in June ……………..

June = 2,386 / 30 = …………......… 80 per day.
July = 2,077 / 31 = …………......... 67 per day.
August = 2,084 / 31 = ……...…..... 67 per day.
September = 1,333 / 30 = ……….. 44 per day.
October = 422 / 10 = ……………….. 42 per day.*

November = ----? / 30 = ----? per day.**
December = ----? / 31 = ----? per day.**


… *Data currently available for only first 10 days of this month.
… **Data not yet available.


Daily Average Violent Deaths in Iraq--PRE AND POST JANUARY 1, 2003:
PRE = 1/1/1979 - 12/31/2002 = 1,229,210/ 8,766 days = 140 per day;
POST = 1/1/2003 - 10/10/2007 = 82,548/1,744 days = ….. 47 per day;
PRE / POST = 140/47 = 2.96.
____________________________________________________________

We must win and succeed in Iraq, because we Americans will suffer significant losses of our freedoms, if we do not win and succeed in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Oct, 2007 01:36 pm
hamburger wrote:
ican wrote :

Quote:
YES, because winning and succeeding in Iraq "is of paramount importance," it is just as important that "we must support our troops and their families fully" adequately.


but what is the reality ?
is it what those soldiers were telling admiral mullen - and what assurances was he able to give them in turn ?
hbg

What do you think is the reality?
0 Replies
 
 

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