THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

About time!

Iraq's neighbors agree to Baghdad summit By QASSIM ABDUL-ZAHRA, Associated Press Writer
25 minutes ago

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraq's neighbors, including Iran and Syria, have agreed to join U.S. and British representatives at a regional conference here on the Iraqi security crisis, government officials said Wednesday.

Deputy Foreign Minister Labid Abawi told The Associated Press that Russia and France were studying the invitation, but "I don't see any sign they will refuse."

"Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, even the U.S and Britain have informed us they will participate," he said, although Tehran has said publicly it has made no decision. Abawi also said China had agreed to attend.

Abawi said the date would be set within two days. Iraqi state TV said the tentative date was March 10.

Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's adviser, Sami al-Askari, also said neighboring countries had agreed to come. Iran has publicly said it is studying the invitation.

"The conference will be important. It will prove that Iraq is politically capable of holding such a conference. It will send a message to the world," Abawi said.

Al-Askari said it would allow countries such as the U.S., Iran and Syria "to sit down together without paying a political price."

Washington's willingness to attend the conference marked a diplomatic turnabout after months of refusing dialogue with Tehran over calming the situation in Iraq.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
I want to leave Iraq b/c the Iraqis have no intention of 'defending themselves,' with or without our help.

I'm more worried about AQ training camps in Pakistan than in Iraq, yes.

Cycloptichorn

Ok, let's suppose you are correct in alleging: "the Iraqis have no intention of 'defending themselves,' with or without our help."

Furthermore, let's suppose you are correct in alleging Al Qaeda is now allowed sanctuary in Pakistan.

FACT: Al-Qaeda is in Iraq and Al-Qaeda is in Afghanistan and Al-Qaeda is in Pakistan.

Why do you want us to leave Iraq without first removing al Qaeda from Iraq and then second keeping them out of Iraq?

Surely you remember that al-Qaeda initially fled from its sanctuary in Afghanistan to the mountains of Pakistan bordering Afghanistan. Then subsequently, some al-Qaeda there in Pakistan fled to Iraq. Now if we leave Iraq, and invade al-Qaeda in Pakistan, wouldn't the al-Qaeda in Pakistan flee to Iraq? If so, then what?

Or if we leave Iraq and do not invade al-Qaeda in Pakistan, wouldn't al-Qaeda be in an excellent position to invade and mass murder us, after they complete training of sufficient suicidal jihadists.

Quote:

www.dni.gov/release_letter_101105.html
A summary of Letter from al-Zawahiri to al-Zarqawi July 9, 2005.
*The war in Iraq is central to al Qa'ida's global jihad.
*The war will not end with an American departure.
*The strategic vision is one of inevitable conflict with a call by al-Zawahiri for political action equal to military action.

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US generals give 6 mos. to win in Iraq before US faces 'Vietnam-style collapse' of support Josh Catone
Published: Wednesday February 28, 2007

A team of military officers advising General David Petraeus, the commander of US forces in Iraq, have concluded that the United States has 6 months to win the war in Iraq or it will face a "Vietnam-style collapse in political and public support that could force the military into a hasty retreat," reports Guardian Unlimited.

The officers that make up the elite team are combat veterans who are considered to be counter-insurgency experts, writes Simon Tisdall. They are charged with implementing President Bush's new plan for Iraq, which includes the controversial "surge."

A former senior Bush administration official tells the Guardian that the team does not even yet have a firm grasp of what the plan is. "The plan is changing every minute, as all plans do," the unnamed official is quoted.

The team also points to a 'disintegrating' international coalition, low troop morale, and potential increased Southern violence in the wake of the British pullout as obstacles to US success in Iraq.

Earlier, RAW STORY reported on a Pentagon document that suggested the war on terror, of which the Iraq war is a part, was too end just before the 2008 election.

Excerpts from the Guardian article follow... http://www.rawstory.com/news/2007/US_generals_give_6months_to_win_0228.html

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Quote:

Ok, let's suppose you are correct in alleging: "the Iraqis have no intention of 'defending themselves,' with or without our help."

Furthermore, let's suppose you are correct in alleging Al Qaeda is now allowed sanctuary in Pakistan.

FACT: Al-Qaeda is in Iraq and Al-Qaeda is in Afghanistan and Al-Qaeda is in Pakistan.

I'm not sure that 'Al Qaeda' actually runs operations in Iraq, if we're talking about the Bin Laden run Al Qaeda. I've seen many references to 'Al Qaeda in Iraq' which is a group which was run separately from OBL's operation and didn't start calling themselves this until after the war began.

I would say honestly that the more dangerous members of AQ - the ones who plan and carry out operations which could impact the US outside of Iraq - most likely are not located in Iraq, but Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Quote:

Or if we leave Iraq and do not invade al-Qaeda in Pakistan, wouldn't al-Qaeda be in an excellent position to invade and mass murder us, after they complete training of sufficient suicidal jihadists.

Al Qaeda will never be in an 'excellent' position to invade and mass murder America, ever. You are slipping into hyperbole here.

And their position would be hurt even more if we'd bother to do a little defense here at home....

Cycloptichorn

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I'm surprised that the "Low Troop Morale" issue has not been revealed long before now. When our "coalition" forces continue to move out of Iraq, it can't be a neutural issue for our troops. Hey, everybody else is leaving us! WTF are we still doing here?

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i have just started reading rory stewart's : "the prince of the marshes - and other occupational hazards of a year in iraq " .

here is part from an interview with stewart :

Quote:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
at the start of the book he gives an overview various officials , tribes , tribal leaders and clerics involved in "the marshes" alone - it covers THREE PAGES !

here just a list of the ribes :
- albu muhammed
- beni lam
- al-azerj
- beni kaab
- albu deraaj
- abu ali
- sudan
- saada
- bahadil

each of these tribes was jockeying to get the most out of the situation ,
and they were at various times co-operating with each other (to squeeze the CPA - coalition provisional authority) or squabbling with each other .

he also states : our mission was to create " a democratic iraq at peace with itself and with its neighbours " - or in the jargon popular in baghdad,:
a multi-ethnic , decentralized , prosperous state , based on human rights , a just constitution , a vibrant civil society and the rule of law " .

all that needed to be added to have a utopian society would have been the addition of : ...and a chicken in every pot on sunday... !

try to get the book ; i'm sure you'll enjoy reading the story of an "insider" - stewatr was the " acting governate co-ordinator in maysan" , later becoming a senior advisor to dhi qar .
hbg

link to interview with stewart :
...THE PRINCE OF THE MARSHES...

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
Al Qaeda will never be in an 'excellent' position to invade and mass murder America, ever. You are slipping into hyperbole here.

And their position would be hurt even more if we'd bother to do a little defense here at home....

Cycloptichorn

"never ... ever" Question

I asked:

Quote:

if we leave Iraq and do not invade al-Qaeda in Pakistan, wouldn't al-Qaeda be in an excellent position to invade and mass murder us, after they complete training of sufficient suicidal jihadists?

I did not ask:

Quote:

if we leave Iraq and do not invade al-Qaeda in Pakistan, wouldn't al-Qaeda be in an excellent position to invade and mass murder America, after they complete training of sufficient suicidal jihadists?

Al-Qaeda has already demonstrated its ability to invade and mass murder some of us by mass murdering many of us on 9/11/2001. They'll not need to mass murder all of us to control all of us. Mass murder of some has a way of intimidating many many more.

That's not hyperbole, that's fact.

With this statement of yours you are not slipping into hyerbole; you are leaping into hyperbole:

Quote:

Al Qaeda will never be in an 'excellent' position to invade and mass murder America, ever. You are slipping into hyperbole here.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
I'm not sure that 'Al Qaeda' actually runs operations in Iraq, if we're talking about the Bin Laden run Al Qaeda. I've seen many references to 'Al Qaeda in Iraq' which is a group which was run separately from OBL's operation and didn't start calling themselves this until after the war began.

I would say honestly that the more dangerous members of AQ - the ones who plan and carry out operations which could impact the US outside of Iraq - most likely are not located in Iraq, but Afghanistan and Pakistan.
...
Cycloptichorn

We disagree!

Quote:

http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf
REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE ON POSTWAR FINDINGS ABOUT IRAQ'S WMD PROGRAMS AND LINKS TO TERRORISM AND HOW THEY COMPARE WITH PREWAR ASSESSMENTS together with ADDITIONAL VIEWS; 09/08/2006.
...
computer page 112 of 151 pages (report page 109),
Conclusion 6. Postwar information indicates that the Intelligence Community accurately assessed that al-Qa'ida affiliate group Ansar al-Islam operated in Kurdish-controlled northeastern Iraq, an area that Baghadha had not controlled since 1991.

American Soldier," by General Tommy Franks, 7/1/2004
"10" Regan Books, An Imprint of HarperCollins Publishers
page 483:
"The air picture changed once more. Now the icons were streaming toward two ridges an a steep valley in far northeastern Iraq, right on the border with Iran. These were the camps of the Ansar al-Isla terrorists, where al Qaeda leader Abu Musab Zarqawi had trained disciples in the use of chemical and biological weapons. But this strike was more than just another [Tomahawk Land Attack Missile] bashing. Soon Special Forces and [Special Mission Unit] operators, leading Kurdish Peshmerga fighters, would be storming the camps, collecting evidence, taking prisoners, and killing all those who resisted."
page 519:
"[The Marines] also encountered several hundred foreign fighters from Egypt, the Sudan, Syria, and Lybia who were being trained by the regime in a camp south of Baghdad. Those foreign volunteers fought with suicidal ferocity, but they did not fight well. The Marines killed them all. "

ANSAR AL-ISLAM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_al-Islam
Ansar al-Islam (Supporters or Partisans of Islam) is a Kurdish Sunni Islamist group, promoting a radical interpretation of Islam and holy war. At the beginning of the 2003 invasion of Iraq it controlled about a dozen villages and a range of peaks in northern Iraq on the Iranian border. It has used tactics such as suicide bombers in its conflicts with the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan and other Kurdish groups.

Ansar al-Islam was formed in December 2001 as a merger of Jund al-Islam (Soldiers of Islam), led by Abu Abdallah al-Shafi'i, and a splinter group from the Islamic Movement in Kurdistan led by Mullah Krekar. Krekar became the leader of the merged Ansar al-Islam, which opposed an agreement made between IMK and the dominant Kurdish group in the area, Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK).
Ansar al-Islam fortified a number of villages along the Iranian border, with Iranian artillery support. [1]
Ansar al-Islam quickly initiated a number of attacks on the peshmerga (armed forces) of the PUK, on one occasion massacring 53 prisoners and beheading them. Several assassination attempts on leading PUK-politicians were also made with carbombs and snipers.
Ansar al-Islam comprised about 300 armed men, many of these veterans from the Afghan war, and a proportion being neither Kurd nor Arab. Ansar al-Islam is alleged to be connected to al-Qaeda, and provided an entry point for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other Afghan veterans to enter Iraq.

www.dni.gov/release_letter_101105.html
A summary of Letter from al-Zawahiri to al-Zarqawi July 9, 2005.
*The war in Iraq is central to al Qa'ida's global jihad.
*The war will not end with an American departure.
*The strategic vision is one of inevitable conflict with a call by al-Zawahiri for political action equal to military action.

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Exodus 'is largest since the creation of Israel'

Quote:

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Backward savage arabs.

Let's bomb more of them, to advance civilisation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/27/science/27math.html?em&ex=1172898000&en=79e4609069da8428&ei=5087%0A

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McTag wrote:

Backward savage arabs.

Let's bomb more of them, to advance civilisation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/27/science/27math.html?em&ex=1172898000&en=79e4609069da8428&ei=5087%0A

Gad, that's sick sarcasm. Surely you are not a supporter of the MMONM (i.e., Mass Murderer Of Non-Murderers) bombing the Iraqi people even more than they are now.
emphasis added

Quote:

In the beauty and geometric complexity of tile mosaics on walls of medieval Islamic buildings, scientists have recognized patterns suggesting that the designers had made a conceptual breakthrough in mathematics beginning as early as the 13th century.
...
The findings, reported in the current issue of the journal Science, are a reminder of the sophistication of art, architecture and science long ago in the Islamic culture. They also challenge the assumption that the designers somehow created these elaborate patterns with only a ruler and a compass. Instead, experts say, they may have had other tools and concepts.

OBVIOUSLY, given these findings, we Americans have even more incentive to help rescue the Iraqi and Afghanistani people from the MOMMONM (i.e., Malignancy Of Mass Murderers Of Non-Murders) that is murdering them or terrorizing them out of their own countries.

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ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
I'm not sure that 'Al Qaeda' actually runs operations in Iraq, if we're talking about the Bin Laden run Al Qaeda. I've seen many references to 'Al Qaeda in Iraq' which is a group which was run separately from OBL's operation and didn't start calling themselves this until after the war began.

I would say honestly that the more dangerous members of AQ - the ones who plan and carry out operations which could impact the US outside of Iraq - most likely are not located in Iraq, but Afghanistan and Pakistan.
...
Cycloptichorn

We disagree!

Quote:

http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf
REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE ON POSTWAR FINDINGS ABOUT IRAQ'S WMD PROGRAMS AND LINKS TO TERRORISM AND HOW THEY COMPARE WITH PREWAR ASSESSMENTS together with ADDITIONAL VIEWS; 09/08/2006.
...
computer page 112 of 151 pages (report page 109),
Conclusion 6. Postwar information indicates that the Intelligence Community accurately assessed that al-Qa'ida affiliate group Ansar al-Islam operated in Kurdish-controlled northeastern Iraq, an area that Baghadha had not controlled since 1991.

American Soldier," by General Tommy Franks, 7/1/2004
"10" Regan Books, An Imprint of HarperCollins Publishers
page 483:
"The air picture changed once more. Now the icons were streaming toward two ridges an a steep valley in far northeastern Iraq, right on the border with Iran. These were the camps of the Ansar al-Isla terrorists, where al Qaeda leader Abu Musab Zarqawi had trained disciples in the use of chemical and biological weapons. But this strike was more than just another [Tomahawk Land Attack Missile] bashing. Soon Special Forces and [Special Mission Unit] operators, leading Kurdish Peshmerga fighters, would be storming the camps, collecting evidence, taking prisoners, and killing all those who resisted."
page 519:
"[The Marines] also encountered several hundred foreign fighters from Egypt, the Sudan, Syria, and Lybia who were being trained by the regime in a camp south of Baghdad. Those foreign volunteers fought with suicidal ferocity, but they did not fight well. The Marines killed them all. "

ANSAR AL-ISLAM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_al-Islam
Ansar al-Islam (Supporters or Partisans of Islam) is a Kurdish Sunni Islamist group, promoting a radical interpretation of Islam and holy war. At the beginning of the 2003 invasion of Iraq it controlled about a dozen villages and a range of peaks in northern Iraq on the Iranian border. It has used tactics such as suicide bombers in its conflicts with the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan and other Kurdish groups.

Ansar al-Islam was formed in December 2001 as a merger of Jund al-Islam (Soldiers of Islam), led by Abu Abdallah al-Shafi'i, and a splinter group from the Islamic Movement in Kurdistan led by Mullah Krekar. Krekar became the leader of the merged Ansar al-Islam, which opposed an agreement made between IMK and the dominant Kurdish group in the area, Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK).
Ansar al-Islam fortified a number of villages along the Iranian border, with Iranian artillery support. [1]
Ansar al-Islam quickly initiated a number of attacks on the peshmerga (armed forces) of the PUK, on one occasion massacring 53 prisoners and beheading them. Several assassination attempts on leading PUK-politicians were also made with carbombs and snipers.
Ansar al-Islam comprised about 300 armed men, many of these veterans from the Afghan war, and a proportion being neither Kurd nor Arab. Ansar al-Islam is alleged to be connected to al-Qaeda, and provided an entry point for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other Afghan veterans to enter Iraq.

www.dni.gov/release_letter_101105.html
A summary of Letter from al-Zawahiri to al-Zarqawi July 9, 2005.
*The war in Iraq is central to al Qa'ida's global jihad.
*The war will not end with an American departure.
*The strategic vision is one of inevitable conflict with a call by al-Zawahiri for political action equal to military action.

I have seen no persuasive evidence that Ansar Al-Islam, or 'Al Qaeda in Iraq,' represents a greater threat to American lives than the AQ headed by Bin Laden and Zawahiri - who have planned many successful operations against US interests and have promised to do so again.

I have seen no credible evidence that there ever was such a letter sent from Zawarhiri to Zarqawi; it's just a little too close to the Republican line for me to really believe it.

Cycloptichorn

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"Soldiers Shift to Baghdad Outposts"
By Joshua Partlow
The Washington Post

Thursday 01 March 2007

Smaller bases expand troop presence in capital but also pose new risks.

Baghdad - American soldiers are leaving their sprawling fortress-cities and establishing many small outposts in the capital's most violent neighborhoods in a major tactical shift under the two-week-old Baghdad security plan.

Informed by counterinsurgency theory that calls for placing units full-time among the people they want to sway, U.S. troops are using their new bases to work with their Iraqi counterparts, uncover more battlefield intelligence and reinforce, by their sustained presence, the message that they will not allow militants unfettered freedom of movement.

But along with these advantages, American soldiers say these outposts pose new risks to their own safety and require pulling soldiers off patrols to protect their lodgings. The threats became apparent this month when a car bomb exploded at a U.S. outpost in Tarmiyah, north of Baghdad, killing two U.S. soldiers and wounding 29 others.

At a new U.S.-Iraqi base in the Jamiyah neighborhood of western Baghdad, a platoon of American soldiers guards the front gate and watches from the rooftop.

"These little combat outposts, they are more exposed: Your routes in here are very limited, and they're definitely watching us," Staff Sgt. Marcel Weaver, 35, said of the insurgents operating in the neighborhood around the base. A grenade "attack is coming, I can guarantee that."
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/030107A.shtml

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It'll become a bigger problem when those surge troops begin their return home. The slowdown in violence is only temporary. I just wonder if the temporary 21,500 extra troops equates to any benefit in long term and short term? * In terms of averages for this war on both the civilian and troop casualties.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
I have seen no persuasive evidence that Ansar Al-Islam, or 'Al Qaeda in Iraq,' represents a greater threat to American lives than the AQ headed by Bin Laden and Zawahiri - who have planned many successful operations against US interests and have promised to do so again.

I have seen no credible evidence that there ever was such a letter sent from Zawarhiri to Zarqawi; it's just a little too close to the Republican line for me to really believe it.

Cycloptichorn

You probably will choose not to believe this either: Al-Qaeda is a self-described world wide confederation of terrorist groups. As you once appeared to know (The 9/11 Commission Report, Chapter 2: The Foundation of the New Terrorism), this confederation was established by bin Laden in the 1990s among several terrorist groups including the Sudanese terrorist group led by Turabi and the Egyptian terrorist group led by Zawahiri, and has grown substantially since.

I truly do now finally realize that I should not bother you with facts contrary to your belief system. Your mind is made up and your faith in your mythological belief system remains undisturbed. Sleep nice!

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Don't you just love the way this administration handles incompetence? They fire them when they become public khowledge. However, all the "big" players are protected - except Colin Powell. their sense of "held accountable" only applies to the underlings - like all the lower rank soldiers for torture.

Walter Reed general fired after failures By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer
18 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - The Army on Thursday fired the general in charge of Walter Reed Army Medical Center, saying he was the wrong person to fix embarrassing failures in the treatment of war-injured soldiers that have soiled the institution's reputation as a first-class hospital.

Less than a week after Defense Secretary Robert Gates visited Walter Reed and said those responsible would be "held accountable," the Army announced it had relieved Maj. Gen. George W. Weightman of command. He is a physician who had headed the hospital for only six months.

In a brief announcement, the Army said service leaders had "lost trust and confidence" in Weightman's leadership abilities "to address needed solutions for soldier outpatient care." It said the decision to fire him was made by Army Secretary Francis J. Harvey.

The Army and the Defense Department began investigations after The Washington Post published stories last week that documented problems in soldiers' housing and in the medical bureaucracy at Walter Reed, which has been called the Army's premier caregiver for soldiers wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan.

When will those at the top admit they screwed up?

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Spreading democracy is no quick fix, but it's our noble duty
Chicago Tribune
February 19, 2007
BY RICHARD S. WILLIAMSON

Democracy is a cathedral in which freedom, opportunity and hope flourish. But by many measures democracy is in retreat around the world.
The last dictator in Europe, Alexander Lukashenko, has held onto power in Belarus. Vladimir Putin continues Russia's authoritarian drift. Iranians elected Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who denies Israelis' right to exist and pursues a nuclear program. Hamas prevailed in Palestinian elections. Lebanon's fragile democratic government is threatened by Hezbollah.

And the difficulties in Iraq have created deep divisions in America and doubts about a "freedom agenda."

Why has this happened and what does it mean for America going forward?

In part the current doubts about freedom's march are the result of unrealistic expectations fed by the quick collapse of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein and the exhilaration from the Rose, Orange, Velvet and Cedar revolutions. For a moment, freedom seemed easy and inevitable.

But it is not. Democracy is hard and its progress uneven. The transition from tyranny to liberty is treacherous. Traumas linger and often turmoil reigns. There is fragile confidence that reciprocity, respect and restraint will emerge. The means of compromise, conciliation and cooperation are unfamiliar. Establishing the rule of law, protection of minority rights, and the habits of harmony are difficult.

And there are no final victories. Democracy is a process, not an end point. It is a process to empower people, protect an open society and provide peaceful mechanisms to deal with divisions.

Events remind us that even while holding deep beliefs about the universal right to freedom and convictions about the virtues of democracy, it is best to project our freedom agenda with humility.

Sustainable democracies do not emerge inevitably from the cauldron of conflict. History, heritage and habits matter.

It is important to be mindful that spreading and strengthening democracy is a long-term mission, not a quick fix. Preferred candidates will not always win. But inevitably democracies empower people and protect freedom.

The burdens of dictatorship and the benefits of democracy are profound, as Mark Palmer, former U.S. ambassador to Hungary and co-founder of the National Endowment for Democracy, chronicles in his book, Breaking the Real Axis of Evil. Almost all refugees come from undemocratic countries. There is a link between reduced economic freedom and increased corruption. Democratically free states produce more than two-thirds of global economic output. Dictators deny human rights. Dictatorships lead to increased warfare. And almost all state sponsors of terror are undemocratic countries.

Promoting democracy is in our interest. A freer, more democratic world is a safer, more secure world.

Furthermore, spreading freedom is America's opportunity and responsibility.

Blessed with freedom, Americans ought to give voice to the voiceless, stand in solidarity with freedom fighters everywhere, and help provide the tools for others to build open societies with accountable governments. As Ronald Reagan said, "Freedom is not just for the lucky few, but the right of all mankind."

We are defined by our values. And our own fidelity to those values and our willingness to let those values animate our foreign policy not only exhibit our better selves, but provides hope for those denied freedom in the world.

The march of freedom has suffered setbacks. Doubts have emerged. Especially at this time of deep divisions, Americans must remain united in faith in our values and confidence in our future. As former Secretary of State George Shultz has said, "Cathedrals are not built by cynics."

Richard S. Williamson, a Chicago lawyer, is a former U.S. ambassador at the United Nations.

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Quote:

Spreading democracy is no quick fix, but it's our noble duty

No, it is not our noble duty to spread democracy.

It's amazing the flip-flops Republicanism has undergone

Cycloptichorn

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http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/030107_Bush_Iraq_Iran_web.pdf

Quote:

Cycloptichorn

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Quote:

The march of freedom has suffered setbacks. Doubts have emerged. Especially at this time of deep divisions, Americans must remain united in faith in our values and confidence in our future. As former Secretary of State George Shultz has said, "Cathedrals are not built by cynics."

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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

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