THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

Shrug. I don't even know how to begin arguing against a position which is grounded in your intuition.

I will say that there's every likelyhood that Zawahiri and Bin Laden are located in reasonably close proximity to one another; do you feel it is worth trying to catch Zawahiri?

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Shrug. I don't even know how to begin arguing against a position which is grounded in your intuition.

I will say that there's every likelyhood that Zawahiri and Bin Laden are located in reasonably close proximity to one another; do you feel it is worth trying to catch Zawahiri?

Cycloptichorn

I meant it when I said your argument was a solid argument. Therefore there is no need for you to provide additional arguement against my intuition. The argument you provided was sufficient.

Because I don't really have a basis for estimating the cost in American life and treasure both before and after capturing Zawahiri and/or bin Laden, and I don't really know the value of capturing them, I'm at a loss to offer a counter argument to yours.

Assuming capturing/executing them will actually lead to a rapid world-wide shut down of al-Qaeda, I think the effort would be worth it, if the cost of invading Pakistan to accomplish that were to be less than the future cost of eliminating al-Qaeda from Iraq and Afghanistan using our current methods.

For me it is a difficult call. Convince me otherwise.

GMT on Tuesday.

* denotes new or updated item.



* DIYALA - A U.S. soldier was killed in Diyala province when an explosion hit his vehicle, U.S. forces said.

* KHALDIYA - A policeman was killed in Khalidiya, 80 km (50 miles) west of Baghdad, in a bomb attack targeting his police patrol.

* BAGHDAD - Iraqi special forces detained on Monday the leader of a militant cell who allegedly participated in bombings which destroyed several U.S. army vehicles and was linked to 10 rocket attacks on the Green Zone in Baghdad.

BAGHDAD - Two car bombs killed six people and wounded 20 in the Zayouna district of eastern Baghdad, police and hospital sources said.

HAWIJA - Hussein Ali Saleh, head of Hawija City Council, was wounded when a suicide car bomber targeted his convoy on a road near the town of Hawija, 70 km (40 miles) southwest of the city of Kirkuk, police said. Two of his guards were wounded.

MOSUL - A suicide bomber wearing an explosives belt blew himself up near a police colonel, wounding the officer and nine others in Mosul, 390 km (240 miles) north of Baghdad, police said.

BAGHDAD - The Iraqi army killed four insurgents and arrested 31 during the last 24 hours in different parts of Iraq, the Defence Ministry said.

FALLUJA - A roadside bomb targeting a police patrol killed one policeman and wounded another in Falluja, 50 km (30 miles) west of Baghdad, police said.

BAGHDAD - U.S. forces captured a suspected militant believed to have ties to the Qods force of Iran's Revolutionary Guard and detained six others during operations in Baghdad, the U.S. military said. The main militant was involved in weapons transfers throughout Iraq, the military said.

BASRA - A suicide car bomb killed three people in an attack targeting a police station in the southern Shi'ite city of Basra, police and a health official said. Up to 20 people were wounded. Basra lies 550 km (340 miles) southeast of Baghdad.

BAGHDAD - Twelve bodies were found in different parts of Baghdad on Monday, police said.

BAQUBA - Police put the final death toll at 28 from a suicide bombing on Monday at a mosque where local Shi'ite and Sunni Arab leaders were holding reconciliation talks in the city of Baquba, 65 km (40 miles) north of Baghdad. The city's police chief was among those killed. Police said 50 people were wounded.

BAGHDAD - A roadside bomb killed one person and wounded four in eastern Baghdad, police said.

BAGHDAD - A roadside bomb near a police station wounded seven people, including a policeman, in the Karrada district of central Baghdad, police said.

KIRKUK - Police said they found a body, shot and burned, in Kirkuk, 250 km (155 miles) north of Baghdad, police said.

KIRKUK - A roadside bomb wounded two people in southern Kirkuk, police said.

NEW YORK El Pais, the highest-circulation daily in Spain, today published what it said was the transcript of a private talk between President George W. Bush and Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar on February 22, 2003, concerning the coming U.S. invasion of Iraq. It took place at the ranch in Crawford, Texas.

The conversation took place on the President's ranch in Crawford, Texas. The confidential transcript was prepared by Spain's ambassador to the United States, Javier Ruperez, the paper said.

Bush purportedly said he planned to invade Iraq inf March "if there was a United Nations Security Council resolution or not....We have to get rid of Saddam. We will be in Baghdad at the end of March."

He said the U.S. takeover would happen without widespread destruction. He observed that he was willing to play bad cop to British Prime Minister Tony Blair's good cop.

Aznar pleaded for patience and replied that it was vital to get a U.N. resolution, noting that public opinion in Spain was strongly against the war.

Mercenaries vs. Counterinsurgency
Blackwater could be a worse problem than you think.

In reply to both the Spain/Bush conversation and the contractor situation in Iraq. I am ashamed to be associated with our president and this war; it is just dishonorable all the way around. Whats worse; I am not sure how anyone following will be able to undo it all or if it is possible. Lets say we leave; will that help anything other than our pocketbooks? If we stay will that help anything in Iraq? I think it is no to both questions.

...

ican711nm wrote:

... For me it is a difficult call. Convince me otherwise.

From a logical standpoint,

The only difference that we can see between Al Qadea and other terrorist organizations is that: AQ has had some pretty good leadership and planning, while other terrorists have not; they have been successful in their attacks, where others have not. They have been successful at eluding capture for the most part, where others have not. What should we attribute this to? I think two factors:

1, competent leadership. OBL is competent when it comes to planning. It is plainly obvious that they planned for the post-9/11 period, at least somewhat.

2, financing and support - primarily from Saudi Arabia, who has no shortage of money or shortage of hate for America.

Without attacking the source of the problem, we will not defeat AQ. We can kill their pawns all day, and they will just wait until we run out of money or patience. We should attack the source of the problems, if we intend to do anything about them.

Cycloptichorn

We are fighting a war. These are the reasons why:

(1) We Americans probably face a sizeable risk of being murdered by Terrorist Malignancy, if we decide to limit the defense of ourselves against Terrorist Malignancy to only here in America;
http://www.mideastweb.org/osambinladen1.htm

(2) The state of Afghanistan harbored (i.e., allowed sanctuary to) al-Qaeda Terrorist Malignancy from May 1996 to October 2001, when the USA invaded Afghanistan seeking to end their sanctuary in Afghanistan;
www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm

(3) The state of Iraq harbored (i.e., allowed sanctuary to) al-Qaeda Terrorist Malignancy from December 2001 to March 2003, when the USA invaded Iraq to end their sanctuary in Iraq;
www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm

(4) Tuesday night, September 11, 2001, the President broadcast to the nation:
www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm
We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them.

(5) Friday, September 14, 2001
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/terroristattack/joint-resolution_9-14.html
The President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

(6) Thursday, September 20, 2001, President Bush addressed the nation before a joint session of Congress:
www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm
Tonight we are a country awakened to danger. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them.

(7) Wednesday, October 16, 2002, Congress passed a joint resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq and gave two primary and sufficient reasons for doing so, that were subsequently verified by the USA military:

www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf
Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens;

A reminder of what, exactly?

...

Cycloptichorn

A REMINDER

We are fighting a war. These are the reasons why:
...

... Bush had to start his war to help his buddies with the oil contracts.

Sherif Mansour
Anti-al Qaeda base envisioned