THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

revel wrote:

...
I say let us leave and let the chips fall where they may and let us get back to thinking about our selves in our own country.

If we all were really able to think for ourselves we would not be willing for us to leave Iraq before we succeed there--whatever it takes.

July 27, 2007

According to the recent National Intelligence Estimate, a collaborative document reflecting the knowledge-base of the U.S. Intelligence community:

"Al Qaeda is and will remain the most serious threat to the Homeland, as it's central leadership continues to plan high-impact plots, while pushing others in extreme Sunni communities to mimic its efforts and to supplement its capabilities."

And President Bush seemed to echo this sentiment when, at a recent speech in West Virginia about our mission in Iraq, he evoked the name "al Qaeda" 27 times. "Many of the spectacular car bombings and killings you see are as a result of al Qaeda - the very same folks that attacked us on September 11th."

But how strong truly is the connection between the central al Qaeda network of Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda in Iraq? Some experts argue that the war on terror, with global al Qaeda at its center as the recent NIE tells us, has little to do with the sectarian war in Iraq, and that our presence there and current tactics have actually worked to bolster al Qaeda's position in the world.

Brian Fishman, instructor at the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point, explains to Bill Moyers that "Al Qaeda in Iraq" is connected to the central al Qaeda network "in name only," and that the group, "has attempted to brand itself as al Qaeda because that improves its position. That allows it to sort of up its stature. It's taken on a brand name. It's a franchise."

But whether or not al Qaeda in Iraq has extensive ties with Osama bin Laden, most sources agree that they are perpetrating extreme violence in the region nonetheless. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates recently said, "I believe that it is al Qaeda that has done the most in terms of trying to stoke sectarian violence, from the bombing of the Samarra mosque a year ago February to the second bombing of the mosque just a couple of weeks ago."

"No one is suggesting that al Qaeda does not exist in Iraq," asserts professor of Middle Eastern and Internal Affairs Fawaz Gerges. "The question on the table...is what...is the most effective means to strike against al Qaeda in Iraq?"

"I would argue...the American military presence in Iraq...has become a liability against America's vested interest...The longer we stay in Iraq, the more we help al Qaeda spread its ideology and tactics."

ican711nm wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

Some people wouldn't recognize discrimination if it bopped them in the head. What's so "sacred" about marriage?

Some people wouldn't recognize indiscriminate behavior and its often cruel and/or horrific consequences even when they are its victims.

Healthy monogamus marriages of men and women are necessary for raising moral, rational and productive children, which in turn are necessary for preserving and evolving civilized society.

The more the merrier.

I disagree completely. I know more then one person who grew up in either a single-parent house, or a same-sex parent house, who turned out to be just fine. Upstanding, really.

This is nothing more than prejudice and bigotry, but it's what I expect from the elder generations.

The funny thing is, you've mentioned 'evolving' society more than one now; but you don't want to admit that it actually has evolved, into something you don't recognize any longer. That doesn't make it bad or wrong in any way.

Cycloptichorn

ican711nm wrote:

revel wrote:

...
I say let us leave and let the chips fall where they may and let us get back to thinking about our selves in our own country.

If we all were really able to think for ourselves we would not be willing for us to leave Iraq before we succeed there--whatever it takes.

Once again, I disagree. The fact you cannot envision any other solution shows that it is you who aren't 'thinking for yourself.'

Cycloptichorn

I know of a great many more who grew up in either a single-parent house, or a same-sex parent house, who turned out to be prison inmates

I can envision lots of other solutions

watched bill moyers on PBS-JOURNAL last night .

he spoke with Brian Fishman, instructor at the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point and professor of Middle Eastern and Internal Affairs Fawaz Gerges about the middle east , iraq and A-Q specifically .
fishman (a westpoint instructor) is teaching cadets how to be sensitive to people of other nations/religions . understanding other nations/religions , he thinks , is vital for america in order to gain acceptance with the people of the middle-east and muslims in particular .
he thinks that the u.s. does not stand a chance to "win a war" in iraq with the present troop commitment . he thinks at least 300,000 troops would be needed "to win the war" . since the u.s. military does not have that strength , he thinks the u.s. would be better off to withdraw .
(i wonder if he will be teaching at west point much longer ? perhaps the military command really agrees with him and uses him to get a message to the people of the u.s. ?)

professor of Middle Eastern and Internal Affairs Fawaz Gerges said that by staying in iraq more and more (young) muslims from many middle-eastern countries are attracted to iraq "to help their muslim brothers" free themselves from the occupation .

it was certainly a very thoughtful discussion - no screaming , shouting or finger wagging as on some other interviews on different networks .
hbg

...

NOT THAT THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH IRAQ ...

ican wrote :

Quote:

I know of a great many more who grew up in either a single-parent house, or a same-sex parent house, who turned out to be prison inmates

since we live in canada's "prison town" (seven prisons within a 20 mile radius ) , we know a little bit about prison inmates personally and from friends working in the prisons .
as far as i can tell the majority of inmates come from two-parent families .
looking at the newspapers , i find it interesting that many so-called "pillars of society" get themselves into plenty of trouble with the law - not necessarily murderers and hold-up criminals , but they do share the crime scene nevertheless .
hbg

LET'S GET BACK TO THE TOPIC OF IRAQ...

ican711nm wrote:

I can envision lots of other solutions

Good. You got us into this mess so YOU get us out. Use your envisioning powers.

hamburger wrote:

NOT THAT THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH IRAQ ...

ican wrote :

Quote:

I know of a great many more who grew up in either a single-parent house, or a same-sex parent house, who turned out to be prison inmates

since we live in canada's "prison town" (seven prisons within a 20 mile radius ) , we know a little bit about prison inmates personally and from friends working in the prisons .
as far as i can tell the majority of inmates come from two-parent families .
looking at the newspapers , i find it interesting that many so-called "pillars of society" get themselves into plenty of trouble with the law - not necessarily murderers and hold-up criminals , but they do share the crime scene nevertheless .
hbg

LET'S GET BACK TO THE TOPIC OF IRAQ...

Not true of the vast majority of inmates in US prisons.

OK! LET'S ...

ican711nm wrote:

hamburger wrote:

NOT THAT THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH IRAQ ...

ican wrote :

Quote:

I know of a great many more who grew up in either a single-parent house, or a same-sex parent house, who turned out to be prison inmates

since we live in canada's "prison town" (seven prisons within a 20 mile radius ) , we know a little bit about prison inmates personally and from friends working in the prisons .
as far as i can tell the majority of inmates come from two-parent families .
looking at the newspapers , i find it interesting that many so-called "pillars of society" get themselves into plenty of trouble with the law - not necessarily murderers and hold-up criminals , but they do share the crime scene nevertheless .
hbg

LET'S GET BACK TO THE TOPIC OF IRAQ...

Not true of the vast majority of inmates in US prisons.

OK! LET'S ...

Data, please.

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

ican711nm wrote:

hamburger wrote:

NOT THAT THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH IRAQ ...

ican wrote :

Quote:

I know of a great many more who grew up in either a single-parent house, or a same-sex parent house, who turned out to be prison inmates

since we live in canada's "prison town" (seven prisons within a 20 mile radius ) , we know a little bit about prison inmates personally and from friends working in the prisons .
as far as i can tell the majority of inmates come from two-parent families .
looking at the newspapers , i find it interesting that many so-called "pillars of society" get themselves into plenty of trouble with the law - not necessarily murderers and hold-up criminals , but they do share the crime scene nevertheless .
hbg

LET'S GET BACK TO THE TOPIC OF IRAQ...

Not true of the vast majority of inmates in US prisons.

OK! LET'S ...

Data, please.

Cycloptichorn

Cyclo, you rate a giggle. You rarely if ever supply data or any other kind of evidence to support your opinions. Yet you have the audacity to ask me to supply same for my opinions.

Nevertheless, I'll see what I can do.

...
I either respond with data when asked to, or say that I don't have any. It's nothing more than any other poster's burden of evidence; affirmative claims deserve justification when asked for.

Cycloptichorn

Lifetime Likelihood of Going to State or Federal Prison, 3/97. Describes characteristics of persons admitted to prison for the first time, compares lifetime and one-day prevalence rates, considers changes in admission rates since 1991, and discusses the estimation techniques. NCJ 160092

Survey of State Prison Inmates, 1991, 5/93. Presents new data about State prison inmates: their background and families, criminal histories, gang membership, drug and alcohol use, HIV/AIDS infection, gun use and possession, sentence, time served, and participation in prison programs. NCJ 136949

D'Souzza claims and provides significant evidence that it is not our occupation of Iraq alone that entices suicidal murderers to mass murder fellow Muslims in Iraq.

ISLAMABAD, July 26: Pakistan on Thursday conducted a successful test of the indigenously-developed cruise missile Babur (Hatf-VII). The missile test is part of a continuous process for validating the design parameters set for the weapon system.

According to a statement issued by the Inter-Services Public Relations, the range of Babur cruise missile, which was first tested in 2005, has been enhanced to 700kms.

The Babur, which has near stealth capabilities, is a low flying, terrain-hugging missile with high manoeuvrability, pinpoint accuracy and radar avoidance features.

The test was witnessed by the Chairman of Nescom, Dr Samar Mubarakmand, senior military officers and scientists of the strategic organisations.

US 'plans huge Saudi arms deal'
The United States is reported to be preparing a major arms deal with Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states worth $20bn (£9.8bn) over the next decade.
Defence officials quoted by US media said the sales would include advanced weaponry, missile guidance systems, upgraded fighter jets and naval ships.

It is said to be an attempt to counter the regional threat posed by Iran.

The officials said the secretaries of state and defence would discuss the deal on a visit to the Gulf next week.

However, discussions with Congress on the arms package have just begun, and no announcements are expected during the visit, the officials added.

Israeli 'concern'

On Saturday, the New York Times and the Washington Post quoted unnamed senior US officials as saying the Bush administration was preparing to an arms sale package for a number of US allies in the Gulf.

The proposed deal for Saudi Arabia reportedly includes air-to-air missiles, advanced precision-guided bombs, upgrades to its fighters and new naval vessels.

To counter objections by Israel and its supporters in Congress, the officials said the Jewish state would be offered significantly increased military aid.

The White House is also said to be concerned that the package may prompt critics of the Saudi government in Congress to oppose it because of concerns about the kingdom's influence in Iraq.

Other US allies in the Gulf - Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates - could receive equipment and weaponry as part of the deal, the officials said
(what a wonderful idea ! hbg)

The officials said the arms deal aimed to bolster the militaries of the Sunni Arab states as part of a strategy to counter what it sees as a growing threat posed by Iran in the region.

"The role of the Sunni Arab neighbours is to send a positive, affirmative message to moderates in Iraq in government that the neighbours are with you," a senior State Department official told the New York Times on Friday.

Defence Secretary Robert Gates is said to be planning to discuss the proposals in a visit to Saudi Arabia next week with the Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice.

Officials said Mr Gates would also reassure the Saudis that his country's commitment to the region remained steadfast regardless of what happens in Iraq in the short term.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/americas/6920458.stm

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/sospi91.htm

Figure 14. [near the end of the link]

Survey of State Prison Inmates, 1991

Persons lived with
most of the time

while growing up Percent of inmates
---------------- ------------------
Both parents 43%
Mother only 39
Father only 4
Other relative 11
Foster home/agency 2
Other 1

Number 711,643