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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 05:05 pm
Quote:
The Constitution of the United States of America
Effective as of March 4, 1789
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

...

The Bill of Rights (1791)
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

...

Amendment XIII (1865)
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 05:11 pm
Quote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof


Now, what about this says to you that America isn't a secular nation?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 05:11 pm
Quote:
The Pledge of Allegiance

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands: One Nation under God; Indivisible; with liberty and justice for all.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 05:15 pm
The Judeo-Christian religious doctrine of the Ten Commandments.

Quote:
20 And God spoke all these words, saying:
2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of anything
that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under
the earth;
5thou shall not bow down unto them , nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a
jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and
fourth generation of them that hate Me;
6 and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep
My commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him
guiltless that taketh His name in vain.
8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work;
10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto the Lord thy God, in it thou shalt not do any
manner
of work, nor thy wife, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy
maid- servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates;
11 for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and
rested
on the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the
Lord thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not commit murder.
Thou shalt not commit adultery, nor shalt thou commit fornication.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
14 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife,
nor his man servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything
that is thy neighbour's.


The religious doctrine of the Declaration of Independence is derived from Judeo-Christian religious doctrine.

Quote:
The Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

My religious doctrine is derived from the Declaration of Independence:

I hold these truths to be self-evident, that all people are created equal, in that they are endowed by God with certain rights. Among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. To secure these rights, governments are instituted among people, deriving their just powers from the consent of the people governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to secure these rights.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience has shown that people are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

To secure for me my rights endowed me by God, I must possess the right to defend myself effectively against those attempting to deny me one or more of my rights. Those people who are attempting to deny me my rights, or are denying me one or more of my rights, thereby forfeit those very rights originally endowed them by God that they seek to deny me.

The endowment of my rights by God obligates me to attempt to help others secure these same rights, whenever anyone attempts to deny them these same rights.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 05:29 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Quote:
The Pledge of Allegiance

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands: One Nation under God; Indivisible; with liberty and justice for all.


Naturally, you are aware that the pledge of allegiance was written by a Socialist, and the phrase 'one nation under god' was added in 1954.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 05:31 pm
1954 was a very different US as was 1854. Trying to use what was considered acceptable in the past for contemporary America is just plain old ignorance of the worst kind. Some people need to grow up!
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 05:43 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Quote:
The Pledge of Allegiance

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands: One Nation under God; Indivisible; with liberty and justice for all.


Naturally, you are aware that the pledge of allegiance was written by a Socialist, and the phrase 'one nation under god' was added in 1954.

Cycloptichorn


But not the same type of socialist as Cycloptichorn yearns to be. He was a member of the Christian Socialist movement. Bellamy was also a free mason and a Baptist minister. He is also buried in the same cemetery as my 2 brothers.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 05:50 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
So, you are against the spread of human rights around the world? That is to say, you don't think that slavery, exploitation of women and children, or genital mutilation are anything to get up in arms about?

Cycloptichorn

I'm against the spread of the cultural left's corruption of decency throughout the world.

I'm against the cultural left dictating religion (i.e., secular religion) throughout the world.

I'm against the cultural left's fabrications of what other people believe.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 06:10 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof


Now, what about this says to you that America isn't a secular nation?

Cycloptichorn

Congress shall make no law establishing or prohibiting the free exercise of religion. That's not secularism.

Secularism is "indifference to, or rejection of, or exclusion of religion and religious considerations.

The first statement in the First Amendment established the right to practice one's own religion (including a secular religion). That is certainly not an indifference, rejection, or exclusion of religion. Therefore, it makes clear America is not a secular nation.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 06:11 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
So, you are against the spread of human rights around the world? That is to say, you don't think that slavery, exploitation of women and children, or genital mutilation are anything to get up in arms about?

Cycloptichorn

I'm against the spread of the cultural left's corruption of decency throughout the world.

I'm against the cultural left dictating religion (i.e., secular religion) throughout the world.

I'm against the cultural left's fabrications of what other people believe.


There's no such thing as secular religion. It's an oxymoron.

What do you define as 'deceny?' People living their lives according to YOUR standards of right and wrong?

What ACTUAL steps do you think we need to take here at home to stop this burgeoning threat?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 06:28 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof


Now, what about this says to you that America isn't a secular nation?

Cycloptichorn

Congress shall make no law establishing or prohibiting the free exercise of religion. That's not secularism.

Secularism is "indifference to, or rejection of, or exclusion of religion and religious considerations.

The first statement in the First Amendment established the right to practice one's own religion (including a secular religion). That is certainly not an indifference, rejection, or exclusion of religion. Therefore, it makes clear America is not a secular nation.


Quote:
Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists
The Final Letter, as Sent
To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.


http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html

I imagine that if this were in those days you guys would have been on the side of the loyalist.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 06:32 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof


Now, what about this says to you that America isn't a secular nation?

Cycloptichorn

Congress shall make no law establishing or prohibiting the free exercise of religion. That's not secularism.

Secularism is "indifference to, or rejection of, or exclusion of religion and religious considerations.

The first statement in the First Amendment established the right to practice one's own religion (including a secular religion). That is certainly not an indifference, rejection, or exclusion of religion. Therefore, it makes clear America is not a secular nation.


You're wrong - that is exclusion of religious considerations.

The founding fathers, as revel points out in the post above this one, quite rightly observed a difference between secular (governmental) and religious matters. There's no such thing as a 'secular religion.' You can't just invent terms in order to bolster your argument, Ican.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 06:32 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Quote:
The Pledge of Allegiance

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands: One Nation under God; Indivisible; with liberty and justice for all.


Naturally, you are aware that the pledge of allegiance was written by a Socialist, and the phrase 'one nation under god' was added in 1954.

Cycloptichorn

Yes! Also, 1954 is more than half a century ago. The 1954 Pledge of Allegiance reaffirmed our nation was not a secular nation--a non-secular nation that at that time had declared its independence only 178 years earlier.

The amended Constitution in general and the unamended First Amendment in particular, are what they are dispite any actions by any persons to change it without strict adherence to Article V of the Constitution.
Quote:
The Constitution of the United States of America
Effective as of March 4, 1789

Article V
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 06:37 pm
It's hard to even know how to discuss this idiocy with you, ICan.

The US has always been a secular nation; there is no established religion in America, there never will be, and while our laws may have sprung from the English traditions which are in part rooted in Christianity, they do not derive their authority from any particular religion. Decisions will never be made by our government based on religious purposes. No amount of disagreement on your part will ever change this.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 06:40 pm
http://www.rationalrevolution.net/images/tripoli.gif

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/history_of_the_separation_of_chu.htm
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 06:54 pm
revel wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof


Now, what about this says to you that America isn't a secular nation?

Cycloptichorn

Congress shall make no law establishing or prohibiting the free exercise of religion. That's not secularism.

Secularism is "indifference to, or rejection of, or exclusion of religion and religious considerations.

The first statement in the First Amendment established the right to practice one's own religion (including a secular religion). That is certainly not an indifference, rejection, or exclusion of religion. Therefore, it makes clear America is not a secular nation.


Quote:
Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists
The Final Letter, as Sent
To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.


http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html

I imagine that if this were in those days you guys would have been on the side of the loyalist.

No revel, WE'RE ON JEFFERSON'S SIDE. The statement by Jefferson, that I boldfaced, does not make the United States of America a secular nation. His statement is saying that our government cannot dictate religion because the First Amendment prohibits that. The statement is clearly not expressing "indifference to, or rejection of, or exclusion of religion and religious considerations." Read again the phrase I highlighted in blue. It does not advocate that oath's of office not be taken with one's right hand on a bible or the stater of an oath not say, "so help me God." Jefferson's letter is expressing pleasure that OUR government shall not dictate religion ... PERIOD!
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 07:00 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Quote:
The Pledge of Allegiance

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands: One Nation under God; Indivisible; with liberty and justice for all.


Naturally, you are aware that the pledge of allegiance was written by a Socialist, and the phrase 'one nation under god' was added in 1954.

Cycloptichorn


The words "one nation" were included in the original pledge.
The term "under God" was added in 1954.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 07:03 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
It's hard to even know how to discuss this idiocy with you, ICan.

The US has always been a secular nation; there is no established religion in America, there never will be, and while our laws may have sprung from the English traditions which are in part rooted in Christianity, they do not derive their authority from any particular religion. Decisions will never be made by our government based on religious purposes. No amount of disagreement on your part will ever change this.

Cycloptichorn

Malarkey! The USA has never been secular; that is has never been indifferent to religion, rejected religion, or excluded religion and religious considerations. The USA merely has not established a religion.

Thank God!
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 07:07 pm

revel,
Adams wrote in the treaty we wouldn't try to dictate, try to influence, or try to fool with the other countries religion. Good! What's secular about that? Answer: NOTHING!
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 07:30 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
So, you are against the spread of human rights around the world? That is to say, you don't think that slavery, exploitation of women and children, or genital mutilation are anything to get up in arms about?

Cycloptichorn

I'm against the spread of the cultural left's corruption of decency throughout the world.

I'm against the cultural left dictating religion (i.e., secular religion) throughout the world.

I'm against the cultural left's fabrications of what other people believe.


There's no such thing as secular religion. It's an oxymoron.

What do you define as 'deceny?' People living their lives according to YOUR standards of right and wrong?

What ACTUAL steps do you think we need to take here at home to stop this burgeoning threat?

Cycloptichorn

Sure there is such a thing as a secular religion. One such secular religion (apparently yours) is devoted to the unprovable belief that denying our government the right to dictate religion is tantamount to making our nation secular. Hell, the word secular was not even used in either the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, or the Pledge of Allegiance.

I define decent behavior as that behavior that promotes the survival and evolution of civilized humanity. However, I will surely not dictate their way as long as they don't try to dictate my way.

I think we can reduce the effectiveness of al-Qaeda's recruitment by those of us on the cultural right openly debating with those on the cultural left what we think constitutes decency and what doesn't. I think we on the right are probably in greater agreement about that with Muslims than we are with the cultural left.
0 Replies
 
 

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