THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

...

Cycloptichorn wrote:

The point isn't that outside groups can come here with money; that will be a danger whether we are in Iraq or not.

The main point I have been making is non-domestic al-Qaeda can come here at the rate of 340 per year and murder 51,000 American non-murderers per year. The second point I have been making is this becomes far more probable if the USA were to leave Iraq before succeeding.

Such a withdrawal by the USA would greatly enable and encourage al-Qaeda to immediately finance at least that 340 per year, because such a withdrawal would be interpreted by al-Qaeda as America's declaration of lack of will and persistence to stop them. Further, it would further enable and encourage them to believe that they can destroy America.

...

Specifically, you predicted that our withdrawl from Iraq will help percipitate this situation here in America. You brought up the Muslim community here in America in response to my charge that there is no group who has shown a willingness to support AQ in America, as they have done so in Iraq.

I did not say the entire, or major part, or even a significant part of the domestic Muslim community would support al-Qaeda. I said only that one or more of the 340 suicidal mass murderers would probably be recruited by al-Qaeda from domestic Muslims. You claimed that no domestic groups of Muslims have shown a willingness to support al-Qaeda. That's one prime falsity. Some such Muslims were already convicted of supporting the 1993 WTC attack. Do you not remember the so-called blind Mullah that was convicted? Of course you do!

You still have not presented any evidence to do so. Who are the American citizens in jail for harboring and sheltering AQ here in America? I ask you specifically, because once again, you brought it up.

This malarkey of yours was answered above.

I base my 'baseline status' claim on the fact that we have not seen widespread terrorism in America. There has never been a history of it in the last 100 years. Until you can provide evidence that there is some sort of 5th column - and by evidence, I mean more then just your low opinion of the Muslim population of America - then there's absolutely no reason to believe that the exist, and certainly no reason to believe that withdrawing from Iraq will somehow cause these people to be more active in some way.

This malarkey of yours was answered above.

Cycloptichorn

on edit:

Ican, we're not worried about 'one' muslim who sympathizes with Iraq. We're not worried about one of anyone who does. We're not worried about a handful or even a dozen. The US will have a handful of terrorists and miscreants no matter what we do. The success seen by AQ in terrorizing Iraq is due to the fact that there thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of Iraqis who have given them shelter, comfort, and aided in their attacks. There is no comprable group here in America.

This is more of your malarkey. The success of al-Qaeda in Iraq is due largely to the immigration from and support of neighboring countries (e.g., Syria, Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia).

Do you seriously believe the Iraqi Muslims support al-Qaeda knowing al-Qaeda is murdering them at the rate of about 100 per day? That would be insane!

You need to get a grip.

I recommend you get couseling from a competent psychiatrist.

Such a withdrawal by the USA would greatly enable and encourage al-Qaeda to immediately finance at least that 340 per year, because such a withdrawal would be interpreted by al-Qaeda as America's declaration of lack of will and persistence to stop them. Further, it would further enable and encourage them to believe that they can destroy America.

I did not say the entire, or major part, or even a significant part of the domestic Muslim community would support al-Qaeda. I said only that one or more of the 340 suicidal mass murderers would probably be recruited by al-Qaeda from domestic Muslims. You claimed that no domestic groups of Muslims have shown a willingness to support al-Qaeda. That's one prime falsity. Some such Muslims were already convicted of supporting the 1993 WTC attack. Do you not remember the so-called blind Mullah that was convicted? Of course you do!

This is more of your malarkey. The success of al-Qaeda in Iraq is due largely to the immigration from and support of neighboring countries (e.g., Syria, Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia).

Do you seriously believe the Iraqi Muslims support al-Qaeda knowing al-Qaeda is murdering them at the rate of about 100 per day? That would be insane!

Why couldn't they attack now? Why aren't they doing this now?

Al-Qaeda is currently preoccupied using their resources in Iraq.

Why do you believe that Muslim Americans would be likely to participate in attacks against America?

Some I read and talked to say they would.

Your theory is like a seive, Ican. Crazy to call anyone else 'malarkey' when you make up numbers, make up scenarios, provide no evidence or proof of them actually coming about, and when challenged, refuse to state that you believe that Muslims in America are going to shelter AQ to attack us. I'd like you to clearly state that, for the record.

Your problem is you refuse to deal with my actual hypotheses and choose to distort them into something other than they are. Those numbers illustrate how few al-Qaeda would be required to produce horrific consequences in the US: 340 suicidal al-Qaedas per year is a relatively tiny number.; 150 killed per suicidal al-Qaeda has already been demonstrated domestically and in Iraq. Even if you insist these numbers are twice as big as they would be, we Americans would still suffer horrific consequences. Instead of 51,000 American slaughtered per year it would be 12,750. That's still a horrific yearly total. Three thousand slaughtered Americans per year would be a horrific total.



Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Why couldn't they attack now? Why aren't they doing this now?

Al-Qaeda is currently preoccupied using their resources in Iraq.

Why do you believe that Muslim Americans would be likely to participate in attacks against America?

Some I read and talked to say they would.

Your theory is like a seive, Ican. Crazy to call anyone else 'malarkey' when you make up numbers, make up scenarios, provide no evidence or proof of them actually coming about, and when challenged, refuse to state that you believe that Muslims in America are going to shelter AQ to attack us. I'd like you to clearly state that, for the record.

Your problem is you refuse to deal with my actual hypotheses and choose to distort them into something other than they are. Those numbers illustrate how few al-Qaeda would be required to produce horrific consequences in the US: 340 suicidal al-Qaedas per year is a relatively tiny number.; 150 killed per suicidal al-Qaeda has already been demonstrated domestically and in Iraq. Even if you insist these numbers are twice as big as they would be, we Americans would still suffer horrific consequences. Instead of 51,000 American slaughtered per year it would be 12,750. That's still a horrific yearly total. Three thousand slaughtered Americans per year would be a horrific total.



Cycloptichorn

I suppose it would be easier if they went to the local mosque and said "Hi, I am Muhammad al-jabari and I work with Al Qaeda, I was hoping you guys would harbor and fund me perhaps?"

Instead we find instances like the Lackawanna 6, respected in their neighborhoods, not suspected of links to terrorism, yet they were. Who knows how many more groups like that exist? In today's heated political environment, it wouldn't be hard to find whacko's like that willing to suppoirt terrorists to try to disrupt American life. Hell, I bet some of our own A2K participants would help harbor terrorists if they only threatened Bush.

Coming from you Ican, that's practically proof of my sanity.

:wink:

Quote:

Such a withdrawal by the USA would greatly enable and encourage al-Qaeda to immediately finance at least that 340 per year, because such a withdrawal would be interpreted by al-Qaeda as America's declaration of lack of will and persistence to stop them. Further, it would further enable and encourage them to believe that they can destroy America.

Once again, you are relying on pop, armchair psychology for your predictions. You don't have any evidence of this.

Yes I do have evidence of this, and so do you. You simply refuse to face it rationally.

Quote:

I did not say the entire, or major part, or even a significant part of the domestic Muslim community would support al-Qaeda. I said only that one or more of the 340 suicidal mass murderers would probably be recruited by al-Qaeda from domestic Muslims. You claimed that no domestic groups of Muslims have shown a willingness to support al-Qaeda. That's one prime falsity. Some such Muslims were already convicted of supporting the 1993 WTC attack. Do you not remember the so-called blind Mullah that was convicted? Of course you do!

And

Quote:

This is more of your malarkey. The success of al-Qaeda in Iraq is due largely to the immigration from and support of neighboring countries (e.g., Syria, Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia).

Do you seriously believe the Iraqi Muslims support al-Qaeda knowing al-Qaeda is murdering them at the rate of about 100 per day? That would be insane!

We aren't worried about just a few AQ supporters here in America; it would take a pervasive and coordinated effort to do more then a tiny amount of damage to us.



Good God Gerty! Try real hard to read and understand what I wrote. I didn't write I was "worried" about the legally immigrated domestic ones. That's your word. I too am not "worried about just a few legally immigrated AQ supporters here in America." I'm worried about those illegally entered al-Qaeda, if any, who may have already entered the country with the intention to suicidally mass murder American non-murderers when told by their leaders to do so. If you think their number is currently zero, that would be a reversal of what you previously posted some time ago. However, I hope to God you are right!


Other then the blind sheik, who else has been jailed (or even convicted) for supporting AQ here in America? In the last 7 years? No significant number of people have been. You are extrapolating huge numbers of casualties from shitty input, which I have already shown to be incorrect.

The blind sheik and his cohorts, some of which escaped to participate in helping 9/11, may be an insignificant number. However, they may also be the tip of the iceberg.

Yes, I do allege that significant numbers of Iraqis have given AQ shelter. They do so b/c AQ attacks Americans and also the enemies of those who are giving them the shelter, ie the other sectarian factions. There is a gigantic amount of evidence that this is true, especially amongst the Sunni tribes who are in a tough spot.

Even with foreign fighters coming in - and I'm glad to see you threw SA in there, as that's where most of them are from, not Iran and Syria - they still rely upon contacts and allies in the Iraqi populace for support. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

That last paragraph's "most of them are from" wipes out your case!

Cycloptichorn

That last paragraph's "most of them are from" wipes out your case!

The Los Angeles Times reports today that according to a senior U.S. military officer and Iraqi lawmakers, about 45% of all foreign militants "targeting U.S. troops and Iraqi civilians and security forces are from Saudi Arabia." Only 15% are from Syria and Lebanon; and 10% are from North Africa. This is based on official U.S. military figures made available to newspaper by the senior officer.

Nearly half of the 135 foreigners in U.S. detention facilities in Iraq are Saudis, he said.

"Fighters from Saudi Arabia are thought to have carried out more suicide bombings than those of any other nationality, said the senior U.S. officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the subject's sensitivity," the Times' Ned Parker writes. "It is apparently the first time a U.S. official has given such a breakdown on the role played by Saudi nationals in Iraq's Sunni Arab insurgency.

There is absolutely no doubt that you have lost this argument.

Quote:

That last paragraph's "most of them are from" wipes out your case!

Oh, really? Guess you haven't been paying attention lately.

Quote:

The Los Angeles Times reports today that according to a senior U.S. military officer and Iraqi lawmakers, about 45% of all foreign militants "targeting U.S. troops and Iraqi civilians and security forces are from Saudi Arabia." Only 15% are from Syria and Lebanon; and 10% are from North Africa. This is based on official U.S. military figures made available to newspaper by the senior officer.

Nearly half of the 135 foreigners in U.S. detention facilities in Iraq are Saudis, he said.

"Fighters from Saudi Arabia are thought to have carried out more suicide bombings than those of any other nationality, said the senior U.S. officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the subject's sensitivity," the Times' Ned Parker writes. "It is apparently the first time a U.S. official has given such a breakdown on the role played by Saudi nationals in Iraq's Sunni Arab insurgency.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003611786

The ratio of Iraqi non-murderers murdered by al-Qaeda to US military killed by al-Qaeda is about 100 to one.

Foreigners who enter America, with the intention of harming us, whether they be affiliated with AQ or not, are a problem. This is a problem which exists independently from the war in Iraq. It existed before the war and it will exist after the war.

The magnitude of the existence of this problem after the Iraq war is ended will vary depending on how the war is ended.

But, without local support in significant numbers, attacks in America will be at best sporadic. There is no way you will see the levels of suicide bombings, murders, and attacks that you do in Iraq. Here in America they have to be 100 times as careful, b/c the percentage of the population who would support them in attacking other Americans is somewhere between 0 and 1 percent. Iraq is a much more permissive environment for them, as there are plenty of Sunni extremists who want to see Shiites killed, plenty of Shiites who want to see Sunnis killed, and plenty on both sides who want to see America attacked in Iraq for being occupiers of their country.

Thank you for your unsupported opinion.

You are extrapolating numbers which have no meaning here in America. Your statistics don't correlate at all. I do believe that AQ has operatives here in America. I don't believe that the Muslim community here will support them in any significant fashion. I don't believe that leaving Iraq will exacerbate the threat, and you certainly haven't provided anything at all other then your opinion that this is true.

I did not present you statistics. I presented you my estimate of how few al-Qaeda were required to produce horrific consequences in the US. Those numbers would be statistics only if they were based on what has actually been done or will be done.

I specifically challenged you to point to the writings and name specific people who have told you in person that they would support Al Qaeda. I call on you to do so immediately.

I'll not tell you the names of those Muslims I talked to personally that said they would support al-Qaeda: that is, root for al-Qaeda. I will point to writings at the pace I choose. There are many such writings and many of those I will have to transcribe, unless you--to reduce my workload--choose to read for yourself the references in THE ENEMY AT HOME by Dinesh D'Souza; see NOTES, pages 293-319.

Cycloptichorn

The ratio of Iraqi non-murderers murdered by al-Qaeda to US military killed by al-Qaeda is about 100 to one.

The magnitude of the existence of this problem after the Iraq war is ended will vary depending on how the war is ended.

I did not present you statistics.

I presented you my estimate of how few al-Qaeda were required to produce horrific consequences in the US. Those numbers would be statistics only if they were based on what has actually been done or will be done.

I'll not tell you the names of those Muslims I talked to personally that said they would support al-Qaeda: that is, root for al-Qaeda. I will point to writings at the pace I choose. There are many such writings and many of those I will have to transcribe, unless you--to reduce my workload--choose to read for yourself the references in THE ENEMY AT HOME by Dinesh D'Souza; see NOTES, pages 293-319.

ican wrote :

"I'm now going to return to presenting evidence that al-Qaeda wants to destroy America and its influence in the middle east and elsewhere that al-Qaeda is convinced is threatening the survival of Islam. "

is it really so surprising that a-q (and probably many people of the middle east) do not look fondly upon the american (and british) occupation of iraq ?

It is not surprising to me. Their primary reason may surprise you.

More about that later.

i doubt that americans would accept a chinese (fill in any other country) occupation of mexico or canada.

Apparently we already have accepted something like that in Panama.

just look at the hubbub about weak , little cuba which is being looked upon as a thorn in the side of the USA .

Actually its being looked on mainly as a thorn in the sides of Cubans who have fled Castro's Cuba. Many of the rest of us sympathize with them but do not advocate murdering Cuban non-murderers inside Cuba.

but , apparently , the people of the middle east are to be docile and accept an occupation of their lands .

They don't have to be docile; just get al-Qaeda in Iraq to stop murdering Iraqi non-murderers. If that were to happen, the Iraqi government would ask us to leave, or at least confine our attentions to exterminating al-Qaeda in Iraq and not occupying Iraq.
hbg