9
   

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, ELEVENTH THREAD

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 11:35 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
You seem to only have a passing acquaintance with statistics, Ican. You simple can't extrapolate information like that from such a limited base of original knowledge.

If there are at least 340 killers here now, why would leaving Iraq increase the chances that they would attack - why haven't they already attacked?

Cycloptichorn

The US leaving Iraq without succeeding would dramatically increase al-Qaeda's confidence that the US could be defeated merely by relentless suicidal mass murders of American non-murderers. It would also increase my confidence that's true.

MY HYPOTHESES

My hypotheses are not what you keep trying to make them. My hypotheses are IF AMERICA LEAVES IRAQ BEFORE SUCCEEDING:

(1) Al-Qaeda WOULD train at least 340 suicidal mass murderers per year each capable of killing at least 150 American non-murderers;

(2) Al-Qaeda WOULD train at least 340 suicidal mass murderers per year to enter America;

(3) Al-Qaeda WOULD enter at least 340 suicidal mass murderers per year into America.


MATHEMATICAL IMPLICATIONS OF MY HYPOTHESES.

If my hypotheses are true and we leave Iraq before we succeed in Iraq, then after that at least 51,000 American non-murders will be murdered per year by al-Qaeda suicidal mass murderers.

WHAT EVIDENCE DO WE HAVE THAT MY HYPOTHESES ARE TRUE?

Al-Qaeda has declared its intention to defeat America in order to prevent America from destroying Islam as al-Qaeda defines Islam. Based on passed performance, Al Qaeda says what it does and does what it says.

Over the past year, using suicidal bombs of one kind or another, al-Qaeda suicidal mass murderers murdered about 25,000 Iraqi non-murderers. Based on available data that amounts to about 5 deaths per al-Qaeda suicidal mass murderer. That required at least 5,000 al-Qaeda suicidal mass murderers over the past year. If al-Qaeda can recruit and train 5,000 al-Qaeda suicidal mass murderers over the past year, then if America vacates Iraq before succeeding, surely al-Qaeda will then be able to recruit, train, and transport at least 340 al-Qaeda suicidal mass murderers per year to America.

If 19 al-Qaeda suicidal mass murderers can murder almost 3,000 in less than 3 hours, or an average of more than 150 a piece within 3 hours, then surely 340 al-Qaeda suicidal mass murderers can do at least the same.

Even if my hypothesized numbers were double the actual numbers, 51,000 / 2 = 25,500 American non-murderers per year murdered by al-Qaeda suicidal mass murderers is intolerable. On the otherhand if my hypothesized numbers were half the actual numbers, then there would be 102,000 American non-murderers per year murdered by al-Qaeda suicidal mass murderers ... horrible to contemplate.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 11:54 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Isn't it funny that the "fear" tactics Bush uses to scare Americans in thinking if we don't fight them there, we'll have to fight them here, is the very reason why al Qaeda has been growing - our occupation of Iraq.
...

Laughing

You have spent at least the last year, posting all kinds of opinions including your own that had no other purpose than generating fear that Bush was going to destroy the country if not stopped doing what he is doing.

And now you dare accuse Bush of using fear tactics when he describes reality.

Al-Qaeda has accused America of corrupting and eventually destroying Islam. They use that accusation to justify mass murder of both Muslims who disagree with them, and American non-murderers who elected the American governments they claim are corrupting Islam.

Laughing
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 12:17 pm
Quote:

The US leaving Iraq without succeeding would dramatically increase al-Qaeda's confidence that the US could be defeated merely by relentless suicidal mass murders of American non-murderers. It would also increase my confidence that's true.


It's nice to know that your theories for why we shouldn't leave Iraq are based upon pop, armchair psychology and nothing more.

You extrapolate your data from silly sources.

I assert that: AQ's sneak attack on 9/11 is not a good indicator of how much damage they could do on a regular basis, especially as we are now on the lookout for them to a much larger degree then before.

I assert that: AQ's ability to cause death and destruction in Iraq is helped to a large degree by the willingness of the populace to support them in their efforts to attack either the US occupying forces, or other sectarian targets. No such support from the population exists in the US.

It is purely ridiculous to use the numbers you have chosen to try and stir up fear about attacks from AQ. They aren't waiting for us to leave Iraq before they attack America, if that's there goal. It makes no sense whatsoever that they would wait. Your misunderstanding of psychology underlies the errors in judgment and prediction that you have been making with reference to this issue since day one.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 01:48 pm
hamburger wrote:
i think politicians of all stripes have known for centures (millenia ?) that a good way of keeping the population under control is to throw some scares at them .
the list of such scares is a long one : socialists , the yellow peril , communists , the red scare , the soviets and now a-q ... i'm sure if this scare doesn't evidence itself , politicians will have no trouble finding others - just my OPINION - NOT BASED ON ANY MATHEMATICAL CALCULATIONS Shocked .
hbg

(in the germany i grew up in , capitalists were presented as the BIG EVIL !)


Hermann Goering:
Quote:
"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 02:16 pm
revel wrote:
hamburger wrote:
i think politicians of all stripes have known for centures (millenia ?) that a good way of keeping the population under control is to throw some scares at them .
the list of such scares is a long one : socialists , the yellow peril , communists , the red scare , the soviets and now a-q ... i'm sure if this scare doesn't evidence itself , politicians will have no trouble finding others - just my OPINION - NOT BASED ON ANY MATHEMATICAL CALCULATIONS Shocked .
hbg

(in the germany i grew up in , capitalists were presented as the BIG EVIL !)


Hermann Goering:
Quote:
"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."


SUN TZU wrote:
The Moral Law causes the people to be in complete
accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him
regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 04:24 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

The US leaving Iraq without succeeding would dramatically increase al-Qaeda's confidence that the US could be defeated merely by relentless suicidal mass murders of American non-murderers. It would also increase my confidence that's true.


It's nice to know that your theories for why we shouldn't leave Iraq are based upon pop, armchair psychology and nothing more.

My hypotheses are derived from what al-Qaeda leaders and their sympathizers have themselves stated and done. More on that later.

You extrapolate your data from silly sources.

I assert that: AQ's sneak attack on 9/11 is not a good indicator of how much damage they could do on a regular basis, especially as we are now on the lookout for them to a much larger degree then before.

I hope you are right and that my estimate of the damage they would do is exaggerated. However, absent the capability to monitor all communications, I think the effectiveness of our "lookout" capability is severely limited.

I assert that: AQ's ability to cause death and destruction in Iraq is helped to a large degree by the willingness of the populace to support them in their efforts to attack either the US occupying forces, or other sectarian targets. No such support from the population exists in the US.

I think this statement ignores the present reality in Iraq. Al-Qaeda is annually killing thousands of Iraqis whos definition of Islam differs from that of al-Qaeda. As a result many Iraqis are turning away from supporting or tolerating to attacking al-Qaeda.

It is purely ridiculous to use the numbers you have chosen to try and stir up fear about attacks from AQ. They aren't waiting for us to leave Iraq before they attack America, if that's there goal. It makes no sense whatsoever that they would wait. Your misunderstanding of psychology underlies the errors in judgment and prediction that you have been making with reference to this issue since day one.

Your obvious lack of understanding of the psychology of Muslims as Muslim's themselves describe it requires rectification. More about that later.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 04:31 pm
Do you actually know anyone who is Muslim, Ican? I highly doubt it.

And an even better question:

Do you understand what the word 'propaganda' means? Don't you realize the enemy can do it as well as we can?

You write

Quote:

I think this statement ignores the present reality in Iraq. Al-Qaeda is annually killing thousands of Iraqis whos definition of Islam differs from that of al-Qaeda. As a result many Iraqis are turning away from supporting or tolerating to attacking al-Qaeda.


This is not pertinent to the statement I made. You realize that even if parts of Iraqi society are turning against AQ, the willingness of parts of their society to harbor, hide, fund, and support the attacks they put forth has led to their success in the country. No such group exists here in America, in part due to massive cultural differences. Do you deny this?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 04:34 pm
Did a little math just now -

Do you realize that the war in Iraq costs 250,000 Dollars every minute, every day, all day, all year?

That's how much money we are throwing away in Iraq - a large part of the equation that supposed fiscal conservatives simply ignore.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 04:38 pm
It's also much easier to cross the border into Iraq; no border patrol, and a very large border with many countries surrouding it.

The US, on the other hand, has two countries, but with some restrictions on "free" movement. The biggest handicap for aq terrorists is their ability to get a VISA to enter the US, fly or sail from any country into Canada, Mexico or the US, and gain entry.

H-U-G-E difference.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 05:41 pm
McGentrix wrote:
revel wrote:
hamburger wrote:
i think politicians of all stripes have known for centures (millenia ?) that a good way of keeping the population under control is to throw some scares at them .
the list of such scares is a long one : socialists , the yellow peril , communists , the red scare , the soviets and now a-q ... i'm sure if this scare doesn't evidence itself , politicians will have no trouble finding others - just my OPINION - NOT BASED ON ANY MATHEMATICAL CALCULATIONS Shocked .
hbg

(in the germany i grew up in , capitalists were presented as the BIG EVIL !)


Hermann Goering:
Quote:
"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."


SUN TZU wrote:
The Moral Law causes the people to be in complete
accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him
regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger.


Quote:
"What country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance."
Thomas Jefferson
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 05:57 pm
ABC news did a piece last night called 'inside the surge.' It was powerful.

Here's a clip:

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/07/17/abc-goes-inside-the-surge/

I guess these soldiers are the ones the Republicans like to pretend don't exist - the disaffected, tired, mentally damaged ones who question why we're even there.

Money line

Quote:
Approaching his fifteenth month in Iraq, one soldier made a personal challenge to President Bush: "I challenge the President or whoever has us here for 15 months to ride alongside me. I'll do another 15 months if he comes out here and rides along with me every day for 15 months. I'll do 15 more months. They don't even have to pay me extra."


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 06:48 pm
The GOP calls this "theatrics" while our soldiers get killed and maimed. I guess there's no urgency, because they have sacrificed nothing, and the veterans coming home with injuries are being thrown in the streets based on "preexisting" mental illness.

Lovely people.



Marathon Iraq talks in US Senate

The Democrats want to pass legislation to bring US troops home
The US Senate is preparing to hold an all-night session as the Democrats seek to pass legislation requiring an early withdrawal of US troops from Iraq.
Beds, pillows and snacks have been brought into the Senate building, where votes will be held through the night.

The Democrats hope to push wavering Republicans to break ranks. They have so far been unable to raise the 60 votes needed to move to a final vote.

Republican leaders have dismissed the round-the-clock session as theatrics.

They say the Democrats are simply seeking to placate anti-war activists who have criticised the party for its lack of progress on changing course in Iraq since last year's mid-term elections.

'Real thing'

The legislation at stake, proposed by Democratic senators Carl Levin and Jack Reed, would require the withdrawal of most US troops from Iraq by the end of April 2008, with redeployment starting within 120 days of the bill's passage.


Beds, pillows and snacks have been brought in for the marathon session

The vote to bring debate to an end and move to a final ballot on passage of the bill is due to take place on Wednesday.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 07:05 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Do you actually know anyone who is Muslim, Ican?

Yes!

I highly doubt it.

And an even better question:

Do you understand what the word 'propaganda' means? Don't you realize the enemy can do it as well as we can?

Yes, they can do it as well as you can. But they are not doing it. Are you?

You write

Quote:

I think this statement ignores the present reality in Iraq. Al-Qaeda is annually killing thousands of Iraqis whos definition of Islam differs from that of al-Qaeda. As a result many Iraqis are turning away from supporting or tolerating to attacking al-Qaeda.


This is not pertinent to the statement I made. You realize that even if parts of Iraqi society are turning against AQ, the willingness of parts of their society to harbor, hide, fund, and support the attacks they put forth has led to their success in the country. No such group exists here in America, in part due to massive cultural differences. Do you deny this?

Yes, I deny this! Are you not aware of the large Muslim population in the US? I doubt you know enough about their range of views about al-Qaeda to justify your comment, "No such group exists here in America".

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 07:17 pm
I just want to make it clear, that you are alledging that significant percentages of the Muslim population here in America would support and shelter terrorists who planned on attacking America, in spectacular fashion.

Then, I would like you to present the evidence that led you to that conclusion. I do happen to know quite a bit about the Islaamic community and populace here in America, and the charges you are making are quite serious.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 07:17 pm
In fact, Al Qaeda does not exist as it is portrayed by the MSM, the Bush Admin and the Neo-con propagandists. Al Qaeda in Iraq is NOT the same Al Qaeda that attacked us on 9/11. The Al Qaeda operating in Pakistan most closely resembles the terrorists who attacked America. Al Qaeda in Iraq has zero ability to pull off anything close to the 9/11 attacks.

Our occupation of Iraq merely creates more terrorists by the hour. Anyone with any grasp of reality realizes the Iraq incursion will go down as one of the worst blunders in history.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 07:22 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Did a little math just now -

Do you realize that the war in Iraq costs 250,000 Dollars every minute, every day, all day, all year?
...
Cycloptichorn

Do you realize that's $4166.67 every second "every day, all day, all year?" Crying or Very sad

Shall we spend big bucks, stay and try to succeed while risking failure, or shall we flee, guarantee failure while risking mass murder of Americans and spending bigger bucks?
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 07:27 pm
Those who are not in touch with reality are best ignored.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 07:28 pm
Roxxxanne wrote:
In fact, Al Qaeda does not exist as it is portrayed by the MSM, the Bush Admin and the Neo-con propagandists. Al Qaeda in Iraq is NOT the same Al Qaeda that attacked us on 9/11. The Al Qaeda operating in Pakistan most closely resembles the terrorists who attacked America. Al Qaeda in Iraq has zero ability to pull off anything close to the 9/11 attacks.

Our occupation of Iraq merely creates more terrorists by the hour. Anyone with any grasp of reality realizes the Iraq incursion will go down as one of the worst blunders in history.

What evidence can you provide to support your opinion?

By the way, the opinions of others who think the same as you, do not constitute evidence.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 07:30 pm
Roxxxanne wrote:
.............................................
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 07:39 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
.............................................


Laughing
0 Replies
 
 

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