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The World According To Jimmy Carter

 
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 05:17 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Well, I sorta prefer apartheid from rapists, murderers, child molesters, muggers, robbs, and similary other assorted activities, and also apartheid from those that think that sort of thing is just fine and dandy.


Are you saying that non-Jews in the occupied territories are rapists, murderers, child molesters, etc...?.


No, I didn't say that at all. And anybody who read what I did say with an open mind would know that don't you think? I was just using that to illustrate some cases in which apartheid is appropriate, and to separate oneself from rapists, murderers, child molesters, etc. and/or terrorist attacks would be one of those cases.


It wasn't clear to me. Separating oneself from criminals is called law enforcement and prisons, not apartheid.

Quote:
I believe Israel threatened or attacked nobody until they were threatened and attacked. And that has been going on since Israel was re-established as a nation.


Which came first, the occupation or the violence?

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When it comes to a bunch of people who in practice and by stated policy are committed to exterminating you as a people and as a nation, it is advisable not to give them a majority don't you think?


You can't "give" a majority, it's brought about by demographics, which are at the core of this conflict. Israel wants the land but not the people. It's as simple as that.

Quote:
I think we feel the same way about murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc. and those who condone them. What sort of life would we have if we give them majority power? Heck, some of you don't even want Republicans to be in the majority. Smile


So now, once again, you are juxtaposing arabs with "murderers, rapists, child molesters". If this is not your intent then please tell me why you would even bring criminals into the equation.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 05:21 pm
Zippo wrote:
Foxfyre wrote :
Quote:
Well, I sorta prefer apartheid from rapists, murderers, child molesters, muggers, robbers...


I could easly find plenty of credible sources referencing Jewish people (even some rabbis), who have committed those crimes, right here in the U.S of A. Would you prefer 'apartheid' in the U.S ?

(let me know if you want me to post those news sources)


I'm sure you can also find black people, white people, American Indians, Asians, Hispanics, Baptists, mormons, Irishmen, and people from Iowa and such who have committed those crimes right here in the USA and in virtually any other country you want to name, too. But the majority neither do that nor condone that and that's why we put such in jail when we catch them. I believe so do the Israelis. That's a form of apartheid.

It is not apartheid itself that is the problem but apartheid that is racially, ethnically, religiously motivated etc. that is the problem. We used to do that with black people in this country too even after slavery ended--separate neighborhoods, separate schools, separate drinking fountains, the black folk had to sit in the balcony at the movies, etc. That was cruel, wrong, and we fixed it and most of us get along quite well together now. And Israel gets along quite well with Arab citizens who aren't committed to the extinction of Jews and/or Israel.

But do you honestly WANT to integrate with murderers, robbers, rapists, or terrorist bombers or those who approve/condone/help them?
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 05:30 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
It is not apartheid itself that is the problem but apartheid that is racially motivated that is the problem.


Quote:
apartheid
One entry found for apartheid.
Main Entry: apart·heid
Pronunciation: &-'pär-"tAt, -"tIt
Function: noun
Etymology: Afrikaans, from apart apart + -heid -hood
1 : racial segregation; specifically : a former policy of segregation and political and economic discrimination against non-European groups in the Republic of South Africa


(M-W)

Quote:
Britannica
Directory > Reference > Britannica Concise
apartheid

(Afrikaans: "apartness" or "separateness") Policy of racial segregation and political and economic discrimination against non-European groups in South Africa. The term was first used as the name of the official policy of the National Party in 1948, though racial segregation, sanctioned by law, was already widely practiced. The Group Areas Act of 1950 established residential and business sectors in urban areas for each "race" and strengthened the existing "pass" laws, which required nonwhites to carry identification papers.


Answers.com

It may latterly have come to mean segregation/separation etc., but apartheid (particularly given its Afrikaans origins) is by definition racially motivated.

<language nerd issue, but this sort of sloppiness is worse than chalk on a chalkboard>

Yoiks. There's been an edit to FF's post that I quoted that just makes it worse.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 05:38 pm
I agree that most people think of Apartheid in the South African racist context. I disagree that the kind of 'apartheid' Israel practices with Palestine is in any way racially motivated. I do think it never would have occurred had Palestine not attempted to obliterate Israel and were not still on the record as having that as a goal.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 05:39 pm
Thanks, ehbeth. I should be more careful then as I've been using it as a synonym for segregation.

Obviously I think it's ridiculous to call law enforcement apartheid.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 05:43 pm
That's why we don't call law enforcement apartheid. And that's why Desmond Tutu and Jimmy Carter are both off base calling the Israel/Palestine situation 'apartheid'.
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blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 08:54 pm
Carter is hardly saying anything new using the word apartheid to describe Israel's treatment of the Palestinans. Many well educated people have used the term for years and many Israelis who refuse to not play games with the obvious. Kissinger once advised that the Palestinians be dealt with "a la South Africa". Israel was very friendly with South Africa while the much of the international community was into divestment. I think this article puts things in perspective. It's a bit long. " Matrix reloaded -- yet again"
Israel may one day create some sort of severely circumscribed state for the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza. The question is what kind of a nation will be left to enjoy its limited fruits. Jonathan Cook poses the question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Israeli academic Jeff Halper has coined the phrase "the matrix of control" to describe the system of settlements, outposts, bypass roads, confiscated land masquerading as national parks, military zones, checkpoints and now hundreds of kilometres of a "separation wall" that together effectively entrap the Palestinian population in ghettoes across the West Bank and Gaza.

Halper's point is to explain how Israel uses non-military tools -- planning laws, architecture and geography -- as well as military hardware to herd Palestinians into the spaces it allocates them: the "Bantustan" homelands familiar from apartheid South Africa.

The pretext may be security but the goal is to stunt the growth of a popular Palestinian leadership and emasculate resistance to the occupation. Meanwhile Israel can continue its colonial theft of vital resources like land and water. Halper and others on the extreme Israeli left have begun to understand that, despite the recent "concessions" of Israel's mainstream left in signing the Geneva Accord, there is now no hope of a two-state solution.

Israeli leaders are committed to a one-state solution, one in which it controls everything. The government is already starting to create a series of isolated Palestinian enclaves which it will duplicitously label a Palestinian state.

This will give the appearance of two states without its substance. The powerless Palestinian entity will be run by the inheritors of the Palestinian Authority, cronies taking their orders from West Jerusalem.

This dismal prospect has in fact been more than obvious for some time. The problem was that foreign observers and Israel's own tiny group of independent-minded thinkers have been stubbornly focussed on the land-for-peace formulas of Oslo and the Israeli-backed enforcement mechanism of the Palestinian Authority as salvation for the Palestinian people. The reality is dawning on them only very belatedly.

To understand why Israel was never pursuing a real Palestinian state, with sovereignty and autonomy, one needs only turn one's eyes a little from Ramallah, Nablus and Jenin to look at what Israel has been doing with its original Palestinians -- the unwelcome population it was left with after it terrorised 80 per cent of Palestinians from their land and into refugee camps across the Middle East.

The refugees are sometimes referred to as the forgotten Palestinians, but in fact the remnants of the Palestinian people who stayed on their lands in Jaffa, Nazareth, Sakhnin, Umm Al- Fahm, the Negev and elsewhere and became Israeli citizens have been at least as overlooked. Theirs is the forgotten story of Palestine.

The historic treatment of this minority -- today numbering some one million people, or nearly 20 per cent of Israel's population -- sheds illuminating light on the Jewish state's current intentions towards the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza. What happened to Nazareth tells us much about Ramallah's intended fate, and what happened to Sakhnin may hint at what Israel has in store for Jenin.

What connects all these places is that they are the shadow cast by a Palestinian homeland that predates Israel. They are the surviving evidence of the original war crime that gave birth to Israel: not the 1967 War that led to the occupation, and which is the lightning rod for world attention, but the war of 1948, which has largely been exorcised from our memories. As such Palestinians who continue to live on their land, whether in Jaffa or Bethlehem, Acre or Hebron, pose the same threat and must be neutered in much the same kinds of way.

This insight has been understood by all Israeli prime ministers, from the first, David Ben Gurion, to the most recent, Ariel Sharon. And none, not even the most beatified, Yitzhak Rabin, has been diverted from the following guiding vision: Israel's primary goal must be the eradication of the national consciousness of the Palestinian people, through their division into separate identities (West Bankers, Gazans, refugees, East Jerusalemites and Israeli Arabs), and the endless partitioning of their territory into ever smaller geographical units.

Israel's military leadership believes that combined these two policies can incapacitate Palestinian resistance, by diminishing the possibility of collective action and by shrinking the space, psychological and physical, in which Palestinians -- all Palestinians -- can manoeuvre against the occupation.

The international community's growing acceptance of the Israeli position that only West Bankers and Gazans are Palestinian -- in the sense that only they have the right to some sort of statehood -- is signal enough of Israel's success. The recent Geneva Accord,
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2003/664/op40.htm
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 07:53 am
bethie wrote
Quote:
<language>


Way, way, way worse.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 08:18 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Which came first, the occupation or the violence?


The violence.

May 14, 1948: State of Israel declared. British withdraw. New state attacked simultaneously by Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Egypt. Palestinian Arabs were encouraged by the invading armies to vacate their homes to facilitate a quick war and complete victory.

Any more questions?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 08:50 am
McGentrix wrote:

Any more questions?


Yes, the first one which you did not answer.

FreeDuck wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
I did a quick search for South African suicide bombings. not many hits.


And if there had been, would that mean that there was no apartheid in South Africa?


You mentioned suicide bombings as if they justified a system of apartheid. The fact that Israel was born in violence doesn't change the facts on the ground today, and continuing to punish an entire population of people for a war more than 50 years ago is not acceptable.

Between Oslo and the second intifada, there was peace. That's because there was hope for a Palestinian state whereas now that hope has been severely diminished.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 08:55 am
FreeDuck wrote:
McGentrix wrote:

Any more questions?


Yes, the first one which you did not answer.

FreeDuck wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
I did a quick search for South African suicide bombings. not many hits.


And if there had been, would that mean that there was no apartheid in South Africa?


You mentioned suicide bombings as if they justified a system of apartheid. The fact that Israel was born in violence doesn't change the facts on the ground today, and continuing to punish an entire population of people for a war more than 50 years ago is not acceptable.

Between Oslo and the second intifada, there was peace. That's because there was hope for a Palestinian state whereas now that hope has been severely diminished.


No, I mentioned suicide bombings to show the difference between the racial segregation in South Africa vs. the violence forcing the seperation in Israel. If the population wishes to extend the violence towards Israel, and that's what the election of Hamas in governance shows, the Israel must do what it can to minimize that violence. Many Arabs live and work in Israel. It's not an apartheid. It's a protectionist attitude that forces Israel to keep the suicide bombers at bay and out of funding.

Until the Palestinian government decides it would rather live in peace with Israel, the violence will continue. Until Hamas recognizes Israel as a state and stops it's daily aggressions, the violence will continue.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 09:16 am
Foxfyre wrote:
That's why we don't call law enforcement apartheid. And that's why Desmond Tutu and Jimmy Carter are both off base calling the Israel/Palestine situation 'apartheid'.


You're saying that what's going on in the occupied territories is law enforcement? Do you know what is happening there?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 09:24 am
McGentrix wrote:

No, I mentioned suicide bombings to show the difference between the racial segregation in South Africa vs. the violence forcing the seperation in Israel.


It is indeed unfortunate that some Palestinians choose to use violence to protest their conditions, but that doesn't mean that their conditions are not deplorable. I wonder how much violence there might have been were Israelis not settling on the best Palestinian land.

Quote:
If the population wishes to extend the violence towards Israel, and that's what the election of Hamas in governance shows, the Israel must do what it can to minimize that violence.


Is that what it shows? How do you know that?

Quote:
Many Arabs live and work in Israel. It's not an apartheid. It's a protectionist attitude that forces Israel to keep the suicide bombers at bay and out of funding.


We're talking about the occupied territories, not Israel.

Quote:
Until the Palestinian government decides it would rather live in peace with Israel, the violence will continue. Until Hamas recognizes Israel as a state and stops it's daily aggressions, the violence will continue.


Does Israel want to live in peace with a Palestinian state, or does it want the land?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 09:26 am
Nice evasion tactics Freeduck.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 09:35 am
Nice answers, McG.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 09:56 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
That's why we don't call law enforcement apartheid. And that's why Desmond Tutu and Jimmy Carter are both off base calling the Israel/Palestine situation 'apartheid'.


You're saying that what's going on in the occupied territories is law enforcement? Do you know what is happening there?


I know as much as anybody who has to rely on the media for information knows I suppose. And yes, the purpose of law enforcement, at least in free, democratic countries, is to serve and protect. The checkpoints and other provisions Israel is using to keep the terrorist bombers out is law enforcement in every sense of the word. If the purpose was to control Palestinians just because they were Palestinians and there was no other life threatening purpose to it, then I would agree it would be Apartheid.

As it is, I don't see it as any different than any other 'authorized personnel' only policy. The Israelis have this weird idea that it is a bad idea to admit suicide bombers, sabotage experts, and/or the people who condone or support them. Do you honestly think Israel is wrong in taking that view?

Neither the good Bishop nor President Carter ever seem to consider that particular part of the equation when they throw around words like 'apartheid' though. Both almost certainly mean well. But they're wrong.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 10:10 am
Foxfyre wrote:

I know as much as anybody who has to rely on the media for information knows I suppose. And yes, the purpose of law enforcement, at least in free, democratic countries, is to serve and protect.


In free and democratic countries we have something called due process and habeas corpus. Palestinians don't have those rights.


Quote:
The checkpoints and other provisions Israel is using to keep the terrorist bombers out is law enforcement in every sense of the word. If the purpose was to control Palestinians just because they were Palestinians and there was no other life threatening purpose to it, then I would agree it would be Apartheid.


The purpose is to take the land for Israel but not the people. The effect is to obliterate hope of a two state solution.

Quote:
As it is, I don't see it as any different than any other 'authorized personnel' only policy.


In this case, all Palestinians are 'unauthorized', in some cases to live on their own property and to move from one Palestinian area to another.

Quote:
Neither the good Bishop nor President Carter ever seem to consider that particular part of the equation when they throw around words like 'apartheid' though. Both almost certainly mean well. But they're wrong.


Both the good Bishop and President Carter have acknowledged Israel's need for secure borders, which is why they think that expanding those borders at the expense of Palestinians is a bad idea and won't make them more secure.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 10:22 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

I know as much as anybody who has to rely on the media for information knows I suppose. And yes, the purpose of law enforcement, at least in free, democratic countries, is to serve and protect.


In free and democratic countries we have something called due process and habeas corpus. Palestinians don't have those rights.


Those that don't bomb crowded market places, that don't fire rockets into residential neighborhoods, that don't blow up busses filled with school children have all the due process and habeas corpus as anybody else in Israel. There are at least a million Arabs living peacefully as Israeli citizens in Israel with no restrictions on their freedoms whatsoever. So that isn't really the issue is it?

I think the Israelis have more right to protect themselves against terrorists than the Palestinians have a right to be terrorists or condone terrorists.

Quote:
Quote:
The checkpoints and other provisions Israel is using to keep the terrorist bombers out is law enforcement in every sense of the word. If the purpose was to control Palestinians just because they were Palestinians and there was no other life threatening purpose to it, then I would agree it would be Apartheid.


The purpose is to take the land for Israel but not the people. The effect is to obliterate hope of a two state solution.


All that was ever necessary for a two-state solution was for the Palestinians to recognize Israel's right to exist, for the Palestinians to stop blowing up Israeli marketplaces, neighborhoods, busses, and for the Palestinians to agree to a two-state solution. They have had MANY opportunities to do all of this and so far have refused.

Quote:
Quote:
As it is, I don't see it as any different than any other 'authorized personnel' only policy.


In this case, all Palestinians are 'unauthorized', in some cases to live on their own property and to move from one Palestinian area to another.


I repeat my former argument. If the Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist and agree to stop terrorist activities and live as peaceful law abiding Israeli citizens OR accept a two-state solution while ceasing harrassment of Israel, they will be able to move wherever they wish.

Quote:
Quote:
Neither the good Bishop nor President Carter ever seem to consider that particular part of the equation when they throw around words like 'apartheid' though. Both almost certainly mean well. But they're wrong.


Both the good Bishop and President Carter have acknowledged Israel's need for secure borders, which is why they think that expanding those borders at the expense of Palestinians is a bad idea and won't make them more secure.


Baloney. Carter and Tutu have both come down squarely pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel or certainly critical of Israel in a way they are not critical of the Palestinians. Both would impose on Israel policies that would make it far more difficult for Israel to protect its citizens and defend itself. I wouldn't trust either one of them to have Israel's best interests at heart and I think Israel is quite wise to understand that.
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blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 10:35 am
habeas corpus ? Hey we used to have that in America. It was great.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 11:12 am
blueflame, Correction: we used to have habeas corpus until Bush removed it for our "prisoners." Bush is above all laws.
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