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Carter blames Israel for Mideast conflict

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Dec, 2006 07:09 am
MC wrote
Quote:
the overall viewpoint I have gleaned from the articles does not support your contention that Israel is anti-American, anti-Bush, pro-Syria, pro-Hezbollah.


That is not a contention I have made (because it isn't an opinion I hold). Now, if you can figure out why you made such a quick and false assumption, you will move a good deal closer to understanding how someone(s) has been training or encouraging you (and others) to think in simplistic black/white, good/evil, pro-american/anti-american, right wing/left wing categories.

As regards your earlier quote from Jimmy Carter expressing his opinion that Iraq is not in a civil war... that's another case of an urge towards intellectual laziness and simplicity. I (and others) haven't made the assertion that "civil war" is an appropriate term or not. The acceptance of that label or the refusal to accept it is, in either case, a vote on which propaganda story one wants to accept or reject. The significance of the term is pretty much wholly related to domestic political consumption, pro-Bush or against Bush, pro-neoconservative ideology or against it.

It is a trivial debate and a distraction. Carter understands that far better than do you. It is not that the situation in Iraq reaches the level of discord and destruction and danger that "civil war" implies. The situation may more accurately be considered worse than that...more complex and more dangerous than an internal binary conflict (like your civil war).
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Dec, 2006 08:11 am
It is more complex and more dangerous than a civil war.

Your phrase, Bernie, " may more accurately be considered " is a bit wishy washy.

You are following this big story here aren't you? The one about the radiological weapon of mass something or other being brought into the poshest part of central London I mean. Just like that!. As Tommy Cooper used to say. Bless his memory.

Oh- And Mr Bush, your elected President no less, did say that you are either with us or against us so it's official that it is black or white. And-yes- it is simple. Like Occam said.
0 Replies
 
Monte Cargo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Dec, 2006 03:54 pm
blatham wrote:
MC wrote
Quote:
the overall viewpoint I have gleaned from the articles does not support your contention that Israel is anti-American, anti-Bush, pro-Syria, pro-Hezbollah.


That is not a contention I have made (because it isn't an opinion I hold). Now, if you can figure out why you made such a quick and false assumption, you will move a good deal closer to understanding how someone(s) has been training or encouraging you (and others) to think in simplistic black/white, good/evil, pro-american/anti-american, right wing/left wing categories.

Blatham, you give my new term "5-Minute Amnesiac" meaning and life:

Blatham's words:
Quote:
Carter's analysis of the centrality of the Palestine/Israeli issue to Muslim anger and to peace in the middle east is, of course, Tony Blair's position as well. It is also the position of many American analysts and officials with experience in that section of the world. It is also the position of the majority of Israeli citizens, by consistent poll.

But it will be the case that LSM and, I'd guess MC as well, have never read Israeli publications, including Ha'aretz, Israel's leading newspaper (you can read today's issue HERE. They won't have read Israel's great reporters/writers such as Ari Shavit. They won't have much of an inkling, if any at all, of the size of the peace movement within Israeli society, of Israeli court decisions on treatment of prisoners, the illegal occupation of Palestinian lands, etc. They are likely quite unaware of how many UN resolutions Israel stands in violation of, offering up similar legal grounds for those forwarded to invade Iraq.

Until they get themselves educated on these matters (and I expect that won't happen) I don't know what use arguing with them might be.


Hmmm.
* Peace movement
* Israeli Court Decisions on Treatment of Prisoners
* Illegal Occupation of Palestinian Lands
* All of the UN Resolutions Israel Violates

No, can't see much or any of an opinion there, Blatham, and of course you don't advance any opinion that we uninformeds are aware of how the Haaretz provides insight into the issues that Israel really cares about, like protecting terrorists rights, being imperialistic, having a mounting population of Moslem sympathizers and violating international law.

You are pompous, elitist, bombastic, smug and capricious. That's what I like about you. I'm like that way myself. Very Happy

Quote:
As regards your earlier quote from Jimmy Carter expressing his opinion that Iraq is not in a civil war... that's another case of an urge towards intellectual laziness and simplicity. I (and others) haven't made the assertion that "civil war" is an appropriate term or not. The acceptance of that label or the refusal to accept it is, in either case, a vote on which propaganda story one wants to accept or reject. The significance of the term is pretty much wholly related to domestic political consumption, pro-Bush or against Bush, pro-neoconservative ideology or against it.

It is a trivial debate and a distraction. Carter understands that far better than do you. It is not that the situation in Iraq reaches the level of discord and destruction and danger that "civil war" implies. The situation may more accurately be considered worse than that...more complex and more dangerous than an internal binary conflict (like your civil war).

That particular post was not necessarily directed at you. A simple Yahoo cross reference of search terms "Iraq" and "Civil War" brings up 19,500,000 references, of which 19,499,992 of those are liberals who make their case that the U.S. led coalition efforts to help Iraquis create their own constitution must be a failure because "Rovians fail to grasp the reality of the Iraq situation, that Iraq is in the throes of a civil war".
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Dec, 2006 04:12 pm
I watched the Larry King interview of Jimmy Carter and found Carter's responses and the positions he expressed towards Israel and the Middle east both reasonable and fair. He wasn't antagonistic or at all antipathetic towards Israel, but at the same time didn't shy away from his main points. This time Jimmy wasn't the fuzzy-headed, mean-spirited bastard he usually is.

With respect to black & white views of the world, I believe it is wise to have and maintain a clear view of your strategic priorities (black & white, if you wish to call it that). However that does not require that your choice of tactics in the pursuit of these strategic goals must necessarily be guided by the same black & white logic. I believe that Bush's choice and expression of his strategic goals has been wise and appropriate. I suspect history will find that he did less well in some of his tactics.

Apart from the British and the Poles, I don't think any of our European friends have any room to criticize. Their short sighted timidity and venality leaves them out of the game entirely.
0 Replies
 
Monte Cargo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Dec, 2006 04:53 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
I watched the Larry King interview of Jimmy Carter and found Carter's responses and the positions he expressed towards Israel and the Middle east both reasonable and fair. He wasn't antagonistic or at all antipathetic towards Israel, but at the same time didn't shy away from his main points. This time Jimmy wasn't the fuzzy-headed, mean-spirited bastard he usually is.

With respect to black & white views of the world, I believe it is wise to have and maintain a clear view of your strategic priorities (black & white, if you wish to call it that). However that does not require that your choice of tactics in the pursuit of these strategic goals must necessarily be guided by the same black & white logic. I believe that Bush's choice and expression of his strategic goals has been wise and appropriate. I suspect history will find that he did less well in some of his tactics.

Apart from the British and the Poles, I don't think any of our European friends have any room to criticize. Their short sighted timidity and venality leaves them out of the game entirely.

Everyone has the right to a fresh approach on ideas and it looks like Carter has taken a step back from his traditional bitterly partisan side and shown some wisdom.

I have always believed if you stay on the right side of the road or the left side of the road, you will be safe, but not if you position yourself right in the middle of the road. That's when you get run over.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Dec, 2006 04:58 pm
I disagree. Having walked the yellow line many a time in my life, the only risk is when the cars whizzing past on the left or the right decide to change lanes, and that doesn't happen often.

I will say that I really don't know that Carter has ever been "bitterly partisan". I think the post that started this thread portrayed his remarks that way, but that portrayal was inaccurate. In any event, I agree with his actual take on the situation.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Dec, 2006 08:23 am
hi george, nice to see you.

I missed the King interview (I can no longer abide the fellow for his celebrity ass-kissing, his sink-to-the-bottom guests, and his lazyness as regards anything like journalism) but did see Carter in several other interviews.

I'm quite curious and quite mesmerized as to the evolved notions held about Carter by so many folks on the right in the US. I don't know a single Canadian, for example, who carries such negative ideas of the man. I suspect that it has much to do with the campaign by Reagan's people pre the election and then the divisive propagandist dynamic that went into full swing after.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Dec, 2006 08:36 am
blatham wrote:
Quote:
MC wrote Quote:
the overall viewpoint I have gleaned from the articles does not support your contention that Israel is anti-American, anti-Bush, pro-Syria, pro-Hezbollah.


That is not a contention I have made (because it isn't an opinion I hold). Now, if you can figure out why you made such a quick and false assumption, you will move a good deal closer to understanding how someone(s) has been training or encouraging you (and others) to think in simplistic black/white, good/evil, pro-american/anti-american, right wing/left wing categories.


MC wrote
Quote:
Blatham, you give my new term "5-Minute Amnesiac" meaning and life:


You continue to go black/white rather than to accept nuance and differentiations.

To be or express sympathies for the Palestinian plight is not "anti-Israel" or "anti-US" or "pro-Hezbollah". To disagree with particular Israeli policies or with Likkud's positions on any number of matters or even with everything that spits out of Netanyahu's mouth doesn't entail that one is even "anti-Bush".

You fall to such simplistic equations rather commonly and rather immediately. And you certainly are not alone in this. It is an either/or conceptual framework which is pushed in much modern rightwing media. One of O'Reilly's favorite questions now is "Yes or no answer....do you want the US to win in Iraq or not?" Cliches abound in this medium and slogans are ubiquitous, both serving to shortcut anything like reflection and education. "You are with us or against us"...but now, as Tony Snow admitted two weeks ago, the US is and has been in touch with both Syria and Iran in a diplomatic context.

If there is a more damaging element in modern American political discourse, I don't know what it would be.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Dec, 2006 11:36 am
blatham wrote:
hi george, nice to see you.

I missed the King interview (I can no longer abide the fellow for his celebrity ass-kissing, his sink-to-the-bottom guests, and his lazyness as regards anything like journalism) but did see Carter in several other interviews.

I'm quite curious and quite mesmerized as to the evolved notions held about Carter by so many folks on the right in the US. I don't know a single Canadian, for example, who carries such negative ideas of the man. I suspect that it has much to do with the campaign by Reagan's people pre the election and then the divisive propagandist dynamic that went into full swing after.


Good to speak with you as well.

I believe that Jimmy Carter may be the most admirable person alive who was once President of the country, but he was also one of our least effective Presidents. He was wise and understanding in many ways, but he failed to make that wisdom and understanding count in meeting his responsibilities as a leader.

He failed to address the economic stagnation that had been developing before he arrived on the scene until late in his term when he appointed Paul Volker to the Federal Reserve.

His handling of the Oil Crisis was feckless in the extreme - he called the "Energy Crisis" the "moral equivalent of war" (whatever that truly weird phrase might mean), and then did what ? -- Created the Department of Energy, by any measure the worst conceived bureaucracy in an already overinflated government, whose "solution" to the problem was millions into the Synfuels Program - an environmentally disastrous program that failed both technically and economically. This was the moment to instead impose higher taxes on gasoline consumption to curtail demand and seize control of the price from an OPEC that even then was detectably unable to control the supply.

His response to the outrages of the Iranian revolution was to betray both the dying Shah and the interests of the country in the face of the radical ragheads who seized our embassy. He overcontroled the military rescue attempt in a misplaced concern about collateral damage and excessive use of force, achieving the worst outcome of all -- force with no result.

Even his handling of the peace negotiations between Israel and Egypt was more of a response to the initiatives of Sadat than an expression of the real understanding he voices today. When he had the ability to do so, he put no pressure on the Likud party in Israel to forego their expressed (and misguided) ambitions to expropriate the territory (but not the people) of the West Bank. The occupation was only ten years old then, and decisive action by Carter might have made the difference, particularly in the wake of peace with Egypt. He failed to followup on the opening Sadat gave him.

In short, good man, but miserable, ineffective leader. He also occasionally exhibits a mean, vindictive streak in his odd and misplaced actions in support of folks like Hugo Chavez, and others. He is not above the most partisan of backbiting, and is, in my view a bit self-righteous as well.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Dec, 2006 02:13 pm
The point is that Carter lost in 1980 so was no longer in control and all under Republican control with Reagan and Bush I until 1992. During 1980-1992 a span of 12 years, the Likud Party was given free reign by the Republicans and with their intransigent policies against Palestinians Netanyahu and Ariel Sharon only worsened the situation as they tried to one-up each other with their radicalism and building settlements in disputed areas in the West Bank and Gaza. Talk of adding fuel to the fire.
0 Replies
 
Monte Cargo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Dec, 2006 02:41 pm
blatham wrote:
hi george, nice to see you.

I missed the King interview (I can no longer abide the fellow for his celebrity ass-kissing, his sink-to-the-bottom guests, and his lazyness as regards anything like journalism) but did see Carter in several other interviews.

I'm quite curious and quite mesmerized as to the evolved notions held about Carter by so many folks on the right in the US. I don't know a single Canadian, for example, who carries such negative ideas of the man. I suspect that it has much to do with the campaign by Reagan's people pre the election and then the divisive propagandist dynamic that went into full swing after.

Blatham, there was a lot not to like about the one-term Carter presidency. I won't go into a littany, but keeping in mind that the two Reagan presidential campaigns in 1980 and 1984, which bore Jimmy Carter in his reeleciton bid followed by Carter's running mate, Walter (Fritz) Mondale, the results were devastating for Carter. Two of this country's most lopsided landslide victories (among some of the largest in its history) followed. If I were Jimmy Carter, I would have felt extremely bitter.

Examples of some of Carter's bitterness is cited in critical remarks Carter has made abroad regarding Guantanamo Bay prisoners, comments made at Coretta Scott King's funeral (wife of the late Martin Luther King, black, peaceful activist of late 1960s), his photo-op of sitting next to Michael Moore at the Republican National Convention, to mention just a few.

If I were in Carter's shoes, Reagan's popularity would have made me very bitter. One of Reagan's most famous slogans "Trust but verify..." seems to fly straight in the face of Carter's very trusting core belief system. The diplomatic deal with Kim Jong-Il seems to be an outgrowth of the opposite philosophy, for which Carter received the Nobel Peace Prize. Imagine the humiliation for Carter of having constituents from the opposing party that were in power, mocking this deal, owing to the news stories which highlighted the development of nuclear weapon's manufacturing in Pyongyang!

I'm not Carter's shrink by any stretch (hmm shrink and stretch in the same sentence), but it is intriguing to speculate occasionally.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Dec, 2006 02:48 pm
Reagan was a turncoat turned around by Nancy whose advisor was an astrologist named Tillson. Reagan slept thru most of hismeetings and dodged WWII. Bush I hatred Reagan was he was assigned to downstairs. Bush I, a one-termer, wasn't that good as he brought terrorism to America with his lack of diligence in overseeing his Arab crony Saddam.
0 Replies
 
Monte Cargo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Dec, 2006 04:15 pm
talk72000 wrote:
Reagan was a turncoat turned around by Nancy whose advisor was an astrologist named Tillson. Reagan slept thru most of hismeetings and dodged WWII. Bush I hatred Reagan was he was assigned to downstairs. Bush I, a one-termer, wasn't that good as he brought terrorism to America with his lack of diligence in overseeing his Arab crony Saddam.

We have seen your trolling and transparently inaccurate charges against Reagan. You are simply bitter because when the United States got its first chance and second chance, they elected Reagan in record numbers. I have spent time correcting these garbage charges of your's in previous posts.

Carter was a one-term president also and that is who this thread is about, since you gratuitously slammed Bush41 in your non-sequiteur argument.

It was true that Reagan negotiated with Saddam and Rumsfeld was at one time an envoy to those negotiations. Alliances have been changing throughout history. With the level of worship that you undoubtedly now give to Germany as a dissenter to U.S. policy in the U.N., what would THAT have looked like fifty eight years ago?
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Dec, 2006 04:27 pm
Reagan and Bush I are relevant as both contributed to Israel's intransigent and polarizing policies by the Likud. Instead of treading warily along sensitive issues they bulldozed themselves into indefensible positions.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Dec, 2006 04:29 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
His response to the outrages of the Iranian revolution was to betray both the dying Shah and the interests of the country in the face of the radical ragheads who seized our embassy. He overcontroled the military rescue attempt in a misplaced concern about collateral damage and excessive use of force, achieving the worst outcome of all -- force with no result.


Yeah, the poor, poor Shah, the dictator we installed after toppling Iran's democratic government. The poor, poor Shah who's brutality in ensuring "the interests of the country"--democracy be damned--paralleled that of our other erstwhile stand up guy, Saddam Hussein. In retrospect, the Shah is lucky in that he never had the time to fall out of favor with us. This way the far right of this country will forever hold in high regard their dictatorial Shah of Iran.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Dec, 2006 04:37 pm
0 Replies
 
Monte Cargo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Dec, 2006 06:55 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
His response to the outrages of the Iranian revolution was to betray both the dying Shah and the interests of the country in the face of the radical ragheads who seized our embassy. He overcontroled the military rescue attempt in a misplaced concern about collateral damage and excessive use of force, achieving the worst outcome of all -- force with no result.


Yeah, the poor, poor Shah, the dictator we installed after toppling Iran's democratic government. The poor, poor Shah who's brutality in ensuring "the interests of the country"--democracy be damned--paralleled that of our other erstwhile stand up guy, Saddam Hussein. In retrospect, the Shah is lucky in that he never had the time to fall out of favor with us. This way the far right of this country will forever hold in high regard their dictatorial Shah of Iran.

The conservative wing of the repubican party didn't really favor the Shah. The beginning of the Shah's 26 year rule over Iran began in Eisenhower's administration. Eisenhower was a republican and against communism, but he also write a book warning future America about the dangers of a military-industrial complex.

The history of Iran is interesting. Iran was actually part of the Axis in WWII, our arch enemies. According to BBC NEWS http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/country_profiles/806268.stm.

I haven't studied a great deal of history to understand why England and the U.S. engineered the coup that reinstalled the Shah of Iran in 1953, but it almost certainly had to do with the Iranian Parliament's decision under Mohammad Mossadeq to nationalize the oil industry. It probably really was about the oil then.

When a country nationalizes an industry, they seize control, no matter who the private owners of the property are. In effect, after the equivalent of billions had been invested in refineries, etc., Iran ripped off the Brits and Americans. There was no "eminent domain" or "payment of the fair market price" for the foreign investment, just a straight takeover. Iran mus really have been naive to believe that they could simply cut off the world's second largest supply of oil, and stiff the world's two most powerful countries out of all of their invested assets, without consequence. Oil dependent countries do tend to be somewhat sensitive about that sort of thing.

American/Iran relations, under the Shah's leadership sort of became business as usual. Johnson made no attempts to oust the Shah, nor did Carter. Only when our hostages were kidnapped did Iran become a big deal.
0 Replies
 
Monte Cargo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Dec, 2006 07:03 pm
blueflame1 wrote:

To interpret the significance of the Israeli built border wall between Gaza and Israel, one must ask themselves what conditions existed before the wall and afterward.

Palestinians wanted a land to call their own for decades. Once the border had been defined, Israel ordered all Israeli settlers out of the area and built a wall. The Palestinians now have a land of their own and Israel has some degree of additional security. Looks like a win/win situation to me.

Calling the security wall "Israel's notorious apartheid wall" reminds me of the same ilk that call anti-illegal immigration activists "racists".
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Dec, 2006 07:50 am
george

I'm afraid I am without sufficient knowledge of the period (and as regards some related issues) to competently argue with you re the points you've made. Of course, as blue notes, sympathy for the Shah is rather hard to dredge up. On the other hand, and really quite like one can observe and appreciate the marketing campaign for Apple computers, one can see how effective the Reagan myth-machine was/is and a necessary element of that is (must be) the corollary derogation of Carter. I think there's no question that the present President will have overseen a watch far more damaging and incompetent and it strikes me that perhaps you guys ought to cease putting evangelists in office.

By the way, for the last week, I've been saying nice things about your Pope. It's a rare behavior on my part.

And...have you read Fiasco yet? It's very good. He reflects some complimentary things you've said about Paul Wolfowitz re intelligence and intentions. Mind, he doesn't stop at the complimentary bit...
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Dec, 2006 08:03 am
MC wrote
Quote:
Blatham, there was a lot not to like about the one-term Carter presidency. I won't go into a littany, but keeping in mind that the two Reagan presidential campaigns in 1980 and 1984, which bore Jimmy Carter in his reeleciton bid followed by Carter's running mate, Walter (Fritz) Mondale, the results were devastating for Carter. Two of this country's most lopsided landslide victories (among some of the largest in its history) followed. If I were Jimmy Carter, I would have felt extremely bitter.

Examples of some of Carter's bitterness is cited in critical remarks Carter has made abroad regarding Guantanamo Bay prisoners, comments made at Coretta Scott King's funeral (wife of the late Martin Luther King, black, peaceful activist of late 1960s), his photo-op of sitting next to Michael Moore at the Republican National Convention, to mention just a few.

If I were in Carter's shoes, Reagan's popularity would have made me very bitter. One of Reagan's most famous slogans "Trust but verify..." seems to fly straight in the face of Carter's very trusting core belief system. The diplomatic deal with Kim Jong-Il seems to be an outgrowth of the opposite philosophy, for which Carter received the Nobel Peace Prize. Imagine the humiliation for Carter of having constituents from the opposing party that were in power, mocking this deal, owing to the news stories which highlighted the development of nuclear weapon's manufacturing in Pyongyang!

I'm not Carter's shrink by any stretch (hmm shrink and stretch in the same sentence), but it is intriguing to speculate occasionally.


I don't find the "bitter from losing, therefore he says 'X'" supposition compelling even in the least. For every election winner, there are losers and we don't consider it a truism or a given that those losers will then go on to think and act in a predictably bitter manner. You mentioned ad hominem earlier. That's the territory you are in here..."his opinion isn't based on rationality or careful consideration or moral principles, he holds it because he is bitter" (therefore, it can be rejected with no further concern).

Carter's opinion that Abu Ghraib (and much else related to treatment of prisoners by this administration) like this constitutes a moral abomination and one of the lowest points of America's presence in the world is an opinion shared by many (who didn't lose to Reagan) such as myself.
0 Replies
 
 

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