Carter blames Israel for Mideast conflict

georgeob1 wrote:

That there are "extremist left wing" opponents of Israeli policies among the Jews of Israel or the United States is neither a surprise nor a defense of Israel's policies with respect to the Palestinians. That some of the things they allege may be false is no defense of the nearly 40 year occupation of the West Bank during which Israel has deprived the population of that land of all political anf most human rights.

Monte Cargo has been honest and candid in acknowledging that Israel has claimed the territory of the West Bank as a spoil of war (1967). However he is being dishonest in implying that the existence of intemperate anti Zionists among Jews (or gentiles) is somehow a defense of the systematic injustice Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people. These two things quite obviously have nothing to do with each other. There is no shortage of intemperate zealotry on either side of this issue.

The basic problem and issue here is that Israel has been dominated by political elements that deny the existence and rights of the Palestinian people whose land they have seized and taken. While the world has recognized the legitamacy if Israel in iits 1948 borders, Israel has not ever conceded the limit of its far greater territorial ambitions. Indeed it has attempted to paint itself as particularly virtuous for returning some of the territory it has seized by force from its neighbors, and, in the West Bank, has attempted to seize the land and drive out its inhabitants in an extended occupation that has grossly violated contemporary standards of acceptable behavior by modern nations.

It is true that the Jews intended Israel to be a Jewish state. It is also true that well over a million - an estimated 20+% of the Israeli citizens--are Arabs who practice Islam or Christianity or other than the Jewish faith. Some would say these people lack some priviileges enjoyed by Jewish citizens, but the fact is that they have much more freedom, privileges, and input into their government than can be said of the minority in any other Middle East country or Islamic country.

So I will concede that the Israelis may practice discrimination in a way that would not be acceptable in the United States.

Will you concede that they are now far more democratic than any other Middle Eastern country? And could you agree that the Palestinians would probably have enjoyed much better treatment from the governing Israelis if they had not so often protested by bombing crowded market places, schools, busses loaded with school children and families returning from prayer, etc.? Would you concede that Israelis might have behaved differently if the Palestinian government had approved Israel's right to exist and was not on record as intending to destroy it and/or had cooperated with Israel in attempts to stop the bombings?

I am not convinced that it is the Israelis who are the villains in all this. Looking at all that has been said, implied, accused, discussed, etc., Israel still looks like the side that is practicing self defense and is not the aggressor.

0 Replies

Foxfyre wrote:

It is true that the Jews intended Israel to be a Jewish state. It is also true that well over a million - an estimated 20+% of the Israeli citizens--are Arabs who practice Islam or Christianity or other than the Jewish faith. Some would say these people lack some priviileges enjoyed by Jewish citizens, but the fact is that they have much more freedom, privileges, and input into their government than can be said of the minority in any other Middle East country or Islamic country.

So I will concede that the Israelis may practice discrimination in a way that would not be acceptable in the United States.

Will you concede that they are now far more democratic than any other Middle Eastern country? And could you agree that the Palestinians would probably have enjoyed much better treatment from the governing Israelis if they had not so often protested by bombing crowded market places, schools, busses loaded with school children and families returning from prayer, etc.? Would you concede that Israelis might have behaved differently if the Palestinian government had approved Israel's right to exist and was not on record as intending to destroy it and/or had cooperated with Israel in attempts to stop the bombings?

I am not convinced that it is the Israelis who are the villains in all this. Looking at all that has been said, implied, accused, discussed, etc., Israel still looks like the side that is practicing self defense and is not the aggressor.

I agree with most of this. Israel's treatment of its non Jewish minorities (those who are citizens of Israel) is better than that accorded by many Moslem nations to their minorities. However it is no better than that accorded by its immediate neighbors in the Middle East to their Jewish and Christian minorities -- Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and Jordan. Non Jewish Israeli citizens vote, are represented by political parties and enjoy most of the political rights afforded to Jewish Israelis. However they get none of the special government support for settlements and the like afforded to Jews. More significantly, they are not allowed to serve in the IDF, an institution that because of universal military service required of all but the most extreme Orthodox Jews, pervades Israeli social and economic life. This is a serious disadvantage to the ambitions of any affected Israeli citizen.

Despite this, I don't consider this the real issue here. The central issue in my view is the fate of the much larger number of non citizen Palestinians, living in the West Bank & Gaza whose lives have been controlled by Israel for nearly forty years now, and who have no political rights whatever. Their freedom of association, movement, and property rights have been severely restricted; their land taken; and their economic welfare severely harmed -- all without any voice whatever in the government that rules them.

Increasingly Israel has tried to escape its proper accountability by the creation of a fictitious Palestinian state - one that is totally dependent on the goodwill and control of the Israeli state, and neither contiguous nor able to control its own external or internal borders. Moreover one that displaces many Palestinians from their land and homes, isolating them, often behind a high wall, in separate enclaves that comprise but a small fraction of their former territory. I have noted that this is remarkably similar to what was attempted by Serbia in Bosnia and earlier by South Africa towards its Bantu & Zulu populations. Both were recognized across the world as incompatible with contemporary standards. This practice is made no better when the perpetrator is Israel. The United States has no business supporting such a policy, no matter to what lengths its apologists go in disguising it as a defensive measure. Of course the Palestinians resist it: that is a totally predictable human outcome. Israel knowingly misuses a predictable reaction to injustice as a cause for continued injustice. There will be no peace until this ends.

0 Replies

Fox now wants to compare the whole of the Middle East countries to Israel, and Israel is the only "democracy" of the bunch. Interesting analogy and comparison if one wants to stay dumb and blind.

0 Replies

Fox now wants to compare the whole of the Middle East countries to Israel, and Israel is the only "democracy" of the bunch. Interesting analogy and comparison if one wants to stay dumb and blind.

0 Replies

Fox now wants to compare the whole of the Middle East countries to Israel, and Israel is the only "democracy" of the bunch. Interesting analogy and comparison if one wants to stay dumb and blind.

Any more sidebars/diversions, anyone?

0 Replies

Israel doesn't desire peace, but war - with Iran.

http://blogs.ft.com/rachmanblog/2007/01/israelis_americ.html#more

Quote:

Israelis, America and Iran

It sounds like the stuff that conspiracy theories are made of. In a coastal resort near Tel Aviv, senior Israeli politicians and generals confer with top officials and politicians from Washington to discuss the threat of a nuclear Iran. In any good conspiracy theory, however, these talks would be going on in secret - preferably in an underground bunker. In fact the Herzliya conference on "Israel's national security" is taking place perfectly openly in a smart hotel. And I am in the audience.

The Israel participation is, as one would expect, high level. The conference is scheduled to close with a speech from Ehud Olmert, the prime minister. The lunch-time speaker yesterday was Benjamin Netanyahu, the Likud leader, and maybe the next prime minister. We're hearing from the foreign minister, the defence minister and a string of present and former generals.

But what has really struck me is the number of top Americans who have bothered to come over for the conference. The speaker at dinner last night was Gordon England, America's deputy defence secretary; earlier in the day we heard from Nick Burns, the number three at the State Department. Several contenders for the presidency in 2008 have also felt obliged to tip their hat to Herzliya. Mitt Romney, who is probably second favourite for the Republican nomination, is turning up in person. John McCain, the GOP front-runner is appearing by satellite, so is Rudy Giuliani. For the Democrats, John Edwards is also scheduled to make a satellite address. I cannot think of any other country in the world that could summon up this level of American participation for a conference like this. Certainly not Britain.

Also well represented among the participants are well-known hawks like Richard Perle, Jim Woolsey (the former CIA director), Newt Gingrich and Jose Maria Aznar, the former Spanish prime minister. A lot of these chaps were very prominent in the drive to go to war in Iraq. Now, flushed by their undoubted success there, they are turning their attention to Iran.

There is no doubt that the war drums are beating pretty loudly here in Herzliya. The main topics of conversation that keep coming back and back - in the corridors and also in the conference hall - is how close is Iran to the bomb. Can anything short of military action stop the Iranians? If it comes to bombing, could the Israelis do it alone - or would they have to rely on the United States? Would President Bush give the order? (This place is full of people who claim to have spoken to somebody who has spoken to the president about this very issue, but they all seem to have different stories).

Netanyahu claimed that Iran is 1,000 days away from having nukes. But the Israelis tend to argue that military action would have to come much sooner than that, before the Iranians learn how to enrich enough uranium to make a bomb. Shaul Mofaz, Israel's deputy prime minister, argued that Iran is bent on building a "hegemonic empire in the Middle East" and presents an "existential threat to Israel".

The official American speakers have tended to be a little more circumspect. Nick Burns talked a lot about diplomacy and the UN. But he earned a big round of applause, when he declared - "It is the policy of the United States that we cannot afford to let Iran become a nuclear-weapons state."

The unofficial Americans are much less careful. Jim Woolsey, a former director of the CIA, castigated Burns for his caution and his emphasis on diplomacy. He also likened Iran to Nazi Germany. Funny thing is I distinctly remember hearing a similar speech from Woolsey at an international conference in 2002, when he likened Saddam Hussein to Hitler. Now Hitler is back - except that this time he's Iranian.

January 22, 2007 in Middle East | Permalink

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

GeorgeOb1 writes

Quote:

Increasingly Israel has tried to escape its proper accountability by the creation of a fictitious Palestinian state - one that is totally dependent on the goodwill and control of the Israeli state, and neither contiguous nor able to control its own external or internal borders. Moreover one that displaces many Palestinians from their land and homes, isolating them, often behind a high wall, in separate enclaves that comprise but a small fraction of their former territory. I have noted that this is remarkably similar to what was attempted by Serbia in Bosnia and earlier by South Africa towards its Bantu & Zulu populations. Both were recognized across the world as incompatible with contemporary standards. This practice is made no better when the perpetrator is Israel. The United States has no business supporting such a policy, no matter to what lengths its apologists go in disguising it as a defensive measure. Of course the Palestinians resist it: that is a totally predictable human outcome. Israel knowingly misuses a predictable reaction to injustice as a cause for continued injustice. There will be no peace until this ends.

But my primary argument you skirted or forgot to mention. In South Africa people were divided by race, not ideology, and there was no explicit reason to do so other than by race. Serbia excluded Bosnia for reasons of religion and/or ethnicity or both. Israel built its wall to separate off people who were already bombing their schools and busses and nightclubs and market places, who pledged no allegiance to the Israeli government, who made no effort to stop the bombings or identify the bombers, and who had given their allegiance to a governing body sworn to obliterate Israel.

I see the situation in Israel as quite different from the Balkan conflicts or Apartheid in South Africa.

I think until people condemn Palestinian tactics at least as much as they condemn Israel, and give Israel the go ahead to defend itself against terrorism by whatever means it must, there will be no solution.

0 Replies

Foxfyre wrote:

I see the situation in Israel as quite different from the Balkan conflicts or Apartheid in South Africa.

I think until people condemn Palestinian tactics at least as much as they condemn Israel, and give Israel the go ahead to defend itself against terrorism by whatever means it must, there will be no solution.

This is but a prescription for continued conflict -- until one side or the other is victorious and wipes out the other.

I believe the arbitrary exclusion of Palestinian inhabitants of the West Bank from political rights in Israel, while, at the same time, Russian immigrants living in government financed settlements in the same West Bank territory ( - property taken from these Palestinians) enjoy full rights, is indeed as bad or worse than what was done in South Africa and Bosnia.

Whether the separation and exclusion is done on racial, ethnic, or religious grounds, it is arbitrary and not in keeping with the basic principles of human rights, which we all presumably share equally.

Israel postulates that the Palestinians are motivated by implaccable hatred for Israel, and that there is no hope for changing them. Why is it then that the Palestinian citizens of Israel are not planting bombs or shooting rockets? The violence is coming almost exclusively from those who suffer the injustice.

Foxy, like it or not, you are, in effect advocating either wiping out the Palestinians or holding them under continued serfdom to the Israeli master state.

0 Replies

georgeob1 wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

I see the situation in Israel as quite different from the Balkan conflicts or Apartheid in South Africa.

I think until people condemn Palestinian tactics at least as much as they condemn Israel, and give Israel the go ahead to defend itself against terrorism by whatever means it must, there will be no solution.

This is but a prescription for continued conflict -- until one side or the other is victorious and wipes out the other.

I believe the arbitrary exclusion of Palestinian inhabitants of the West Bank from political rights in Israel, while, at the same time, Russian immigrants living in government financed settlements in the same West Bank territory ( - property taken from these Palestinians) enjoy full rights, is indeed as bad or worse than what was done in South Africa and Bosnia.

Whether the separation and exclusion is done on racial, ethnic, or religious grounds, it is arbitrary and not in keeping with the basic principles of human rights, which we all presumably share equally.

Israel postulates that the Palestinians are motivated by implaccable hatred for Israel, and that there is no hope for changing them. Why is it then that the Palestinian citizens of Israel are not planting bombs or shooting rockets? The violence is coming almost exclusively from those who suffer the injustice.

Foxy, like it or not, you are, in effect advocating either wiping out the Palestinians or holding them under continued serfdom to the Israeli master state.

No, I don't think so. The USA was able to overcome seemingly impossible differences in attitudes and convictions re status of and treatment of minorities in our own country. I refuse to believe that either the Israelis or the Palestinians are incapable of reconciling differences if each side is willing to do so.

The fact that the million plus Palestinians who are Israeli citizens are not committing terrorist violence is proof that such violence isn't ingrained into their DNA.

Are you convinced that Israel would not have extended citizenship to the rest of the Palestinians if they had stopped the terrorist attacks, if they had rejected an anti-Israel government, and if they had demonstrated a willingness to be good citizens of Israel? If they had done that and Israel continued its unacceptable discriminatroy policies, I would certainly be arguing on the other side of this debate.

Is capitulating to the terrorist demands the only reasonable course for Israelis? Do you honestly believe that would bring peace to Israel?

0 Replies

Foxfyre wrote:

The fact that the million plus Palestinians who are Israeli citizens are not committing terrorist violence is proof that such violence isn't ingrained into their DNA.

Then we agree on this point.

Foxfyre wrote:

Are you convinced that Israel would not have extended citizenship to the rest of the Palestinians if they had stopped the terrorist attacks, if they had rejected an anti-Israel government, and if they had demonstrated a willingness to be good citizens of Israel? If they had done that and Israel continued its unacceptable discriminatroy policies, I would certainly be arguing on the other side of this debate.

Then you should prepare yourself for a change of position. The violence did not begin until well after the Israeli occupation of the West Bank began in 1967. Moreover, Israel very early on made it clear that they intended to keep major portions of the West Bank as a spoil of war. Within months after the end of the war Israeli military bases and government subsidized settlements were planted along the full length of the heights overlooking the Jordan Valley, thus separating the population of the West Bank from their previous government in Jordan. All of this predated the armed resistence.

I agree that Arafat and others rather continuously advocated the overthrow of Israel, and did so even then. However the mobilization of the Palestinian population of the West Bank and Gaza did not begin until long after the start of the Israeli military occupation, land seizures, and restrictions on the movement of Palestinians.

Foxfyre wrote:

Is capitulating to the terrorist demands the only reasonable course for Israelis? Do you honestly believe that would bring peace to Israel?

Not everyone who seeks rights for the Palestinians is a terrorist. Not everything advocated by terrorists is wrong. This is the flimsy excuse with which Israel has created the present situation - one that is dangerous for everyone, Israeli, Palestinian, and the United States.

I agree that it would be much more difficult now to create peace with justice than it would have been in 1967. Israel is fond of describing the Palestinians as chronic missers of opportunities. The same case can be made against Israel. However, can you suggest any practical alternative?

0 Replies

GeorgeOb1 writes

Quote:

The violence did not begin until well after the Israeli occupation of the West Bank began in 1967. Moreover, Israel very early on made it clear that they intended to keep major portions of the West Bank as a spoil of war. Within months after the end of the war Israeli military bases and government subsidized settlements were planted along the full length of the heights overlooking the Jordan Valley, thus separating the population of the West Bank from their previous government in Jordan. All of this predated the armed resistence.

Without time to verify its accuracy, but having to reason to disbelieve any of it, let's look at the 10 years prior to 1967 and the 10 years following.

Feb 18, 1957 - Two civilians were killed by terrorist landmines, next to Nir Yitzhak, on the southern border of the Gaza Strip.

Mar 08, 1957 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Beit Govrin was killed by terrorists in a field near the Kibbutz.

Apr 16, 1957 - Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and killed two guards at Kibbutz Mesilot.

May 20, 1957 - A terrorist opened fire on a truck in the Arava region, killing a worker.

May 29, 1957 - A tractor driver was killed and two others wounded, when the vehicle struck a terrorist landmine, next to Kibbutz Kisufim.

Jun 23, 1957 - Israelis were wounded by terrorist landmines, close to the Gaza Strip.

Aug 23, 1957 - Two guards of the Israeli Mekorot water company were killed by terrorists near Kibbutz Beit Govrin.

Dec 21, 1957 - A member of Kibbutz Gadot was killed by terrorists in the Kibbutz fields.

Feb 11, 1958 - Terrorists killed a resident of Moshav Yanov who was on his way to Kfar Yona, in the Sharon area.

Apr 05, 1958 - Terrorists lying in ambush shot and killed two people near Tel Lachish.

Apr 22, 1958 - Jordanian terrorists shot and killed two fishermen near Aqaba.

May 26, 1958 - Four Israeli police officers were killed in a Jordanian terrorist attack on Mt. Scopus, in Jerusalem.

Nov 17, 1958 - Syrian terrorists killed the wife of the British air attache in Israel, who was staying at the guesthouse of the Italian Convent on the Mt. of the Beatitudes.

Dec 03, 1958 - A shepherd was killed at Kibbutz Gonen. In the artillery attack by terrorists that followed, 31 civilians were wounded.

Jan 23, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Lehavot Habashan was killed by terrorists.

Feb 01, 1959 - Three civilians were killed by a terrorist landmine near Moshav Zavdiel.

Apr 15, 1959 - A guard was killed by terrorists at Kibbutz Ramat Rahel.

Apr 27, 1959 - Two hikers were shot at close range by terrorists and killed near Massada.

Sep 06, 1959 - Bedouin terrorists killed a paratroop reconnaissance officer near Nitzana.

Sep 08, 1959 - Bedouins terrorists opened fire on an army bivouac in the Negev, killing an IDF officer, Captain Yair Peled.

Oct 03, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Heftziba was killed by terrorists near Kibbutz Yad Hana.

Apr 26, 1960 - Terrorists killed a resident of Ashkelon south of the city.

Apr 12, 1962 - Terrorists fired on an Egged bus on the way to Eilat; one passenger was wounded.

Sep 30, 1962 - Two terrorists attacked an Egged bus on the way to Eilat. No one was wounded.

Jan 01, 1965 - Palestinian terrorists attempted to bomb the National Water Carrier. This was the first attack carried out by the PLO's Fatah faction.

May 31, 1965 - Jordanian terrorists fired on the neighborhood of Musrara in Jerusalem, killing two civilians and wounding four.

Jun 01, 1965 - Terrorists attack a house in Kibbutz Yiftach.

Jul 05, 1965 - A Fatah terrorism cell planted explosives at Mitzpe Massua, near Beit Guvrin; and on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem near Kafr Battir.

Aug 26, 1965 - A waterline was sabotaged by terrorists at Kibbutz Manara, in the Upper Galilee.

Sep 29, 1965 - A terrorist was killed as he attempted to attack Moshav Amatzia.

Nov 7, 1965 - A Fatah terrorist cell that infiltrated from Jordan blew up a house in Moshav Givat Yeshayahu, south of Beit Shemesh. The house was destroyed, but the inhabitants were miraculously unhurt.

Apr 25, 1966 - Explosions placed by terrorists wounded two civilians and
damaged three houses in Moshav Beit Yosef, in the Beit Shean Valley.

May 16, 1966 - Two Israelis were killed when their jeep hit a terrorist landmine, north of the Sea of Galilee and south of Almagor. Tracks led into Syria.

Jul 13, 1966 - Two soldiers and a civilian were killed near Almagor, when their truck struck a terrorist landmine.

Jul 14, 1966 - Terrorists attacked a house in Kfar Yuval, in the North.

Jul 19, 1966 - Terrorists infiltrated into Moshav Margaliot on the northern border and planted nine explosive charges.

Oct 27, 1966 - A civilian was wounded by a terrorist bomb on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem.

Jan 14, 1967 - Terrorists laid a land mine that at a soccer game, which exploded killing 1 and injuring 2.

Mar 06, 1968 - A terrorist explosion at the Hebrew University cafeteria wounded dozens of students.

Mar 18, 1968 - Terrorists laid a land mine that blew up a school bus, killing 2 children and injuring 28 others.

Sep 04, 1968 - Palestinian terrorists planted explosives in the Tel Aviv bus station, killing one person, and wounding 70.

Sep 22, 1968 - Palestinian terrorists booby trapped a car. The car exploded in the shopping market Mahen Yehuda in Jerusalem, killing 12 people and wounding 70.

Jun 17, 1969 - Shirley Louise Anderson, a 25 year -old tourist from Rochester, New York, was killed when PLO shelled the Israeli resort town of Kallia

Dec 27, 1969 - Leon Holz, 48, a tourrist from Brooklyn, New York was killed when PLO terrorists fired shots at a tourist bus near Hebron

Feb 21, 1970 - Barbara Ertle, of Grandville, Michigan, wife of Reverend Theodore Ertl, was killed during a PLO terrorist shooting attack on a busload of pilgrims in the village of Halhoul, near Hebron

May 22, 1970- Palestinian terrorists attacked a school bus at the Mosha Avivim in the Upper Galilee. 9 children, the driver and 2 other adults are killed, and 19 children are wounded.

Jan 22, 1971 - Palestinian terrorists attacked an Israeli family in the Gaza Strip, killing 2 children and wounding the mother.

Jul 07, 1971 - Palestinian terrorists launched Katushya rockets on Petach Tikva, near Tel Aviv, killing 3 women and one child.

Oct 09, 1971 - A terrorist threw a hand grenade at the Western Wall, wounding 16 Israelis.

May 30, 1972 - Terrorists from the Red Army allied with the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine shoot indiscriminately in the Lod airport, killing 25 people and wounding 70. One of those killed was Aharon Katzir, an internationally renowned scientist.

Mar 05, 1974 - Eight PLO terrorists reached Tel Aviv by sea and took over a hotel killing 3 Israeli soldiers.

Apr 11, 1974 - PLO terrorists attacked Kiryat Shmona, killing 8 children, 8 adults, and 2 soldiers.

May 15, 1974 - PLO terrorists invaded a school in Ma'a lot, killing 21 pupils and 3 adults.

Nov 19, 1974 - PLO terrorists infiltrate into the town of Bet She'an, killing 4 residents and wounding 20 others.

Nov 20, 1974 - PLO terrorists infiltrated from Syria into the Ramat Magshimim settlement, killing 3 students and wounding 2.

Dec 11, 1974 - A terrorist threw a bomb into a Tel Aviv movie theater killing 2 people and wounding 60 others.

Nov 21, 1975 - Michael Nadler, an American-Israeli student from Miami Beach, Florida, was killed when axe-wielding terrorists from the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a PLO faction, attacked students at in the Israeli town of Ramat Hamagshimim.

Apr 28, 1976 - A terrorist explosion in the heart of Jerusalem killed 2 police officers.

A much more extensive list is HERE

0 Replies

Gaza women killed in mosque siege

Up to 200 women marched towards the mosque

Two women have been killed as Israeli troops opened fire on a crowd of women gathered to help besieged gunmen flee a mosque in Beit Hanoun in northern Gaza.
One of the women told the BBC they had dressed the militants in women's clothes to help them escape.

The Israeli military said the women were used as "human shields" and that there had been armed men in the crowd.

Reports said at least 16 Palestinians were killed on Friday, the third day of a major Israeli raid on Beit Hanoun.

Several of the dead were killed during a series of air strikes which took place after dark on sites across Gaza.

At least one Palestinian died at a building used as a mosque in Beit Hanoun, another was killed close to nearby Beit Lahiya; two more were killed in the Jabaliya refugee camp, also in northern Gaza.

In Rafah in southern Gaza, a member of a security force linked to Hamas was killed and three wounded when their vehicle was hit in an air strike.

An Israeli military spokesman said five air strikes had taken place, targeting suspected militants who were planting explosives or involved in rocket attacks on Israel.

Hamas appeal

In the dramatic mosque rescue, Hamas radio issued an appeal to local women when a tense stand-off developed between Israeli forces surrounding the building and up to 15 militants who had taken refuge inside.

One of the women, Nahed Abou Harbiya, described what happened to the BBC Arabic Service.

We risked our lives to free our sons

Um Mohammed, Beit Hanoun woman

In pictures: Gaza offensive
"All the women headed to the mosque to get the Palestinian resistance men... But the Israeli occupation forces were firing heavily at us with their machine guns and also threw stun grenades at us.

"We entered the mosque and indeed we got all the resistance men out and put female attire on them so that the Israeli occupation forces wouldn't arrest them," she said.

Israeli troops had moved in and sealed the town off on Wednesday, in one of the biggest offensives in recent months, which Israel says is aimed at stopping militants firing rockets into Israel.

Shots were fired as the women approached Israeli forces. As some of the women tried to pass the troops, further shots came and two women fell to the ground.

At least 10 women and a Palestinian cameraman were injured.

"We risked our lives to free our sons," Um Mohammed, a woman in her 40s, told the AFP news agency afterwards.

Hamas radio reported that all of the militants in the mosque escaped and were uninjured.

Men 'disguised'

Israeli military spokeswoman Avital Leibovich said: "Unfortunately, maybe one woman was killed - I don't know if it's by IDF or not. But our purpose is definitely not to hit the innocent ones.

"We saw crowds of women. Behind the women hid some of the militants. Some of them were even dressed up as women: we have footage," she said.

"Unfortunately because the militants shot at our forces, sometimes we had to respond."

Press despair over Gaza raid
Gaza's rocket threat

The BBC's Matthew Price in Jerusalem says that in television footage of the incident, some men are visible in the crowd, but there is no evidence that they were carrying guns.

Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniya, of Hamas, said the event was part of a "planned annihilation" of the Palestinians.

He called on UN Secretary General Kofi Annan to come to see what he described as "massacres" committed against them.

In other developments:

An Israeli air strike on Gaza City killed four Hamas militants, with a local commander of Hamas' military wing reportedly among the casualties

The Palestinian housing minister was arrested by Israeli troops in the West Bank town of Ramallah

An elderly Palestinian woman was killed in the West Bank town of Bethlehem during an Israeli army arrest raid

At least one Palestinian youth died during an Israeli operation in the West bank town of Nablus

Major raid

About 30 Palestinians and an Israeli soldier have died in violence since the Israeli operation in Beit Hanoun began on Wednesday. Many of those killed were gunmen, but a four-year-old boy died from his wounds overnight.

BBC Middle East analyst Roger Hardy says that Israel's most immediate aim is to prevent rocket attacks against its territory, but beyond that it wants to strike a decisive blow at Hamas.

Israeli forces have made regular incursions into Gaza and the West Bank following the capture of an Israeli soldier, Cpl Gilad Shalit, in a cross-border raid by Palestinian militants on 25 June.

More than 300 Palestinians have been killed in army operations since then, according to Israeli human rights group B'Tselem.

0 Replies

Foxfyre, how many of those attacks were perpetrated by Palestinians?

0 Replies

Palestinians killed on Gaza beach by Israeli gunboats
By Eric Silver in Jerusalem
Published: 10 June 2006
Israeli naval gunboats killed at least seven Palestinian civilians and wounded about 40 others as they relaxed in the summer heat on a beach in northern Gaza yesterday. Palestinian medical sources said that eight of the dead were from one family. The total included six women and a three-year-old girl.

Lt-Gen Dan Halutz, the Israeli chief of staff, ordered an end to the shelling from land and sea, which had continued throughout the day in retaliation for Palestinian rocket fire into the western Negev. The army apologised for the incident, saying it "regretted the attack on innocent people".

0 Replies

Palestinians and Israelis killed - graph:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/imposter222/killedinisrael.jpg

0 Replies

FreeDuck wrote:

Foxfyre, how many of those attacks were perpetrated by Palestinians?

I have no idea other than the ones attributed to Palestinians. But does it matter? There are a fair number of those mentioned. George also accurately stated that all Palestinians are not terrorists. Neither do all Crips and Bloods steal, assault, and murder, but everybody who hangs out with and supports the gang is going to be suspect.

I just posted the list in rebuttal to George's implication that the Palestinians turned violent AFTER the 1967 war.

Following is the Paletinian Liberation charter drawn up in 1964, a full three years before the 1967 war:

THE PALESTINIAN NATIONAL CHARTER
(Al-Mithaq Al-Kawmee Al-Philisteeni)*

INTRODUCTION

We, the Palestinian Arab people, who waged fierce and continuous battles to safeguard its homeland, to defend its dignity and honor, and who offered all through the years continuous caravans of immortal martyrs, and who wrote the noblest pages of sacrifice, offering and giving.

We, the Palestinian Arab people, who faced the forces of evil, injustice and aggression, against whom the forces of international Zionism and colonialism conspire and worked to displace it, dispossess it from its homeland and property, abused what is holy in it and who in spite of all this refused to weaken or submit.

We, the Palestinian Arab people, who believe in its Arabism and in its right to regain its homeland, to realize its freedom and dignity, and who have determined to amass its forces and mobilize its efforts and capabilities in order to continue its struggle and to move forward on the path of holy war (al-jihad) until complete and final victory has been attained,

We, the Palestinian Arab people, based on our right of self-defense and the complete restoration of our lost homeland- a right that has been recognized by international covenants and common practices including the Charter of the United Nations-and in implementation of the principles of human rights, and comprehending the international political relations, with its various ramifications and dimensions, and considering the past experiences in all that pertains to the causes of the catastrophe, and the means to face it,

And embarking from the Palestinian Arab reality, and for the sake of the honor of the Palestinian individual and his right to free and dignified life,

And realizing the national grave responsibility placed upon our shoulders, for the sake of all this,

We, the Palestinian Arab people, dictate and declare this Palestinian National Charter and swear to realize it.

Article 1. Palestine is an Arab homeland bound by strong Arab national ties to the rest of the Arab Countries and which together form the great Arab homeland.

Article 2: Palestine, with its boundaries at the time of the British Mandate, is a indivisible territorial unit.

Article 3: The Palestinian Arab people has the legitimate right to its homeland and isan inseparable part of the Arab Nation. It shares the sufferings and aspirations of the Arab Nation and its struggle for freedom, sovereignty, progress and unity.

Article 4: The people of Palestine determine its destiny when it completes the liberation of its homeland in accordance with its own wishes and free will and choice.

Article 5: The Palestinian personality is a permanent and genuine characteristic that does not disappear. It is transferred from fathers to sons.

Article 6: The Palestinians are those Arab citizens who were living normally in Palestine up to 1947, whether they remained or were expelled. Every child who was born to a Palestinian Arab father after this date, whether in Palestine or outside, is a Palestinian.

Article 7: Jews of Palestinian origin are considered Palestinians if they are willing to live peacefully and loyally in Palestine.

Article 8: Bringing up Palestinian youth in an Arab and nationalist manner is a fundamental national duty. All means of guidance, education and enlightenment should be utilized to introduce the youth to its homeland in a deep spiritual way that will constantly and firmly bind them together.

Article 9: Ideological doctrines, whether political, social, or economic, shall not distract the people of Palestine from the primary duty of liberating their homeland. All Palestinian constitute one national front and work with all their feelings and material potentialities to free their homeland.

Article 10: Palestinians have three mottos: National Unity, National Mobilization, and Liberation. Once liberation is completed, the people of Palestine shall choose for its public life whatever political, economic, or social system they want.

Article 11: The Palestinian people firmly believe in Arab unity, and in order to play its role in realizing this goal, it must, at this stage of its struggle, preserve its Palestinian personality and all its constituents. It must strengthen the consciousness of its existence and stance and stand against any attempt or plan that may weaken or disintegrate its personality.

Article 12: Arab unity and the liberation of Palestine are two complementary goals; each prepares for the attainment of the other. Arab unity leads to the liberation of Palestine, and the liberation of Palestine leads to Arab unity. Working for both must go side by side.

Article 13: The destiny of the Arab Nation and even the essence of Arab existence are firmly tied to the destiny of the Palestine question. From this firm bond stems the effort and struggle of the Arab Nation to liberate Palestine. The people of Palestine assume a vanguard role in achieving this sacred national goal.

Article 14: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national duty. Its responsibilities fall upon the entire Arab nation, governments and peoples, the Palestinian peoples being in the forefront. For this purpose, the Arab nation must mobilize its military, spiritual and material potentialities; specifically, it must give to the Palestinian Arab people all possible support and backing and place at its disposal all opportunities and means to enable them to perform their role in liberating their homeland.

Article 15: The liberation of Palestine, from a spiritual viewpoint, prepares for the Holy Land an atmosphere of tranquillity and peace, in which all the Holy Places will be safeguarded, and the freedom to worship and to visit will be guaranteed for all, without any discrimination of race, color, language, or religion. For all this, the Palestinian people look forward to the support of all the spiritual forces in the world.

Article 16: The liberation of Palestine, from an international viewpoint, is a defensive act necessitated by the demands of self-defense as stated in the Charter of the United Nations. For that, the people of Palestine, desiring to befriend all nations which love freedom, justice, and peace, look forward to their support in restoring the legitimate situation to Palestine, establishing peace and security in its territory, and enabling its people to exercise national sovereignty and freedom.

Article 17: The partitioning of Palestine, which took place in 1947, and the establishment of Israel are illegal and null and void, regardless of the loss of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and its natural right to its homeland, and were in violation of the basic principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations, foremost among which is the right to self-determination.

Article 18: The Balfour Declaration, the Palestine Mandate System, and all that has been based on them are considered null and void. The claims of historic and spiritual ties between Jews and Palestine are not in agreement with the facts of history or with the true basis of sound statehood. Judaism, because it is a divine religion, is not a nationality with independent existence. Furthermore, the Jews are not one people with an independent personality because they are citizens to their states.

Article 19: Zionism is a colonialist movement in its inception, aggressive and expansionist in its goal, racist in its configurations, and fascist in its means and aims. Israel, in its capacity as the spearhead of this destructive movement and as the pillar of colonialism, is a permanent source of tension and turmoil in the Middle East, in particular, and to the international community in general. Because of this, the people of Palestine are worthy of the support and sustenance of the community of nations.

Article 20: The causes of peace and security and the requirements of right and justice demand from all nations, in order to safeguard true relationships among peoples and to maintain the loyalty of citizens to their homeland, that they consider Zionism an illegal movement and outlaw its presence and activities.

Article 21: The Palestinian people believes in the principles of justice, freedom, sovereignty, self-determination, human dignity, and the right of peoples to practice these principles. It also supports all international efforts to bring about peace on the basis of justice and free international cooperation.

Article 22: The Palestinian people believe in peaceful co-existence on the basis of legal existence, for there can be no coexistence with aggression, nor can there be peace with occupation and colonialism.

Article 23: In realizing the goals and principles of this Convent, the Palestine Liberation Organization carries out its full role to liberate Palestine in accordance with the basic law of this Organization.

Article 24: This Organization does not exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or in the Himmah Area. Its activities will be on the national popular level in the liberational, organizational, political and financial fields.

Article 25: This Organization is in charge of the movement of the Palestinian people in its struggle to liberate its homeland in all liberational, organizational, and financial matters, and in all other needs of the Palestine Question in the Arab and international spheres.

Article 26: The Liberation Organization cooperates with all Arab governments, each according to its ability, and does not interfere in the internal affairs of any Arab states.

Article 27: This Organization shall have its flag, oath and a national anthem. All this shall be resolved in accordance with special regulations.

Article 28: The basic law for the Palestine Liberation Organization is attached to this Charter. This law defines the manner of establishing the Organization, its organs, institutions, the specialties of each one of them, and all the needed duties thrust upon it in accordance with this Charter.

Article 29: This Charter cannot be amended except by two-thirds majority of the members of the National Council of the Palestine Liberation Organization in a special session called for this purpose.

*Adopted in 1964 by the 1st Palestinian Conference

* "Al-Kawmee" has no exact equivalent in English but reflects the notion of Pan-Arabism

http://www.palestine-un.org/plo/frindex.html

0 Replies

Foxfyre wrote:

FreeDuck wrote:
Foxfyre, how many of those attacks were perpetrated by Palestinians?

I have no idea other than the ones attributed to Palestinians. But does it matter?

Since what you posted was in refutation to george's assertion about Palestinian violence, yes.

Quote:

There are a fair number of those mentioned.

Not before 1967.

Quote:

I just posted the list in rebuttal to George's implication that the Palestinians turned violent AFTER the 1967 war.

Which is why I asked you how many of those were committed by Palestinians. Look, I normally don't give much credence to such lists as they are completely without context and they use the words "terrorists" without letting us know which ones. They are also not sourced so it is impossible to gather more information about the incidents or to verify the stated accounts. I am quite sure that a very strongly pro-Palestinian group could come up with a list of attacks against Palestinian civilians that would make that one look quite pathetic -- I'm specifically thinking of attacks against refugee camps.

But I'm mostly interested in your answer to this:

georgeob1 wrote:

Not everyone who seeks rights for the Palestinians is a terrorist. Not everything advocated by terrorists is wrong. This is the flimsy excuse with which Israel has created the present situation - one that is dangerous for everyone, Israeli, Palestinian, and the United States.

I agree that it would be much more difficult now to create peace with justice than it would have been in 1967. Israel is fond of describing the Palestinians as chronic missers of opportunities. The same case can be made against Israel. However, can you suggest any practical alternative?

0 Replies

FD:

I disagree that there are no Palestinians mentioned on the list prior to 1967. Look again. But whether or not terrorists are identified with Palestinians, the Palestinians did nothing to convince the Israelis that they disapproved of, did not support, did not condone terrorist activity against the Israelis. The PLO charter was drawn up PRIOR TO 1967.

I agreed that not everyone that seeks rights for Palestine is a terrorist. Jimmy Carter himself is certainly not a terrorist. I am one to agree that even a clock that is stopped will still be right twice a day.

I do not agree with negotiating with or capitulating to terrorists, however, as I do not believe in rewarding terrorists for murdering innocents, and I firmly believe it only encourages more of the same. I think that is doubly so with fanatical fundamental Islamic terrorists who would exterminate every Jew in Israel given half a chance to do so and who don't care how many Palestinians are killed, injured, maimed, or rendered homeless in the process.

I'm quite sure the Israelis take that fact into account when drawing up their own policies.

0 Replies

Foxfyre wrote:

FD:

I disagree that there are no Palestinians mentioned on the list prior to 1967. Look again.

You said there were a "fair number", which I pointed out not to be true. I didn't say there were none.

Quote:

But whether or not terrorists are identified with Palestinians, the Palestinians did nothing to convince the Israelis that they disapproved of, did not support, did not condone terrorist activity against the Israelis. The PLO charter was drawn up PRIOR TO 1967.

And this is a justification for the current situation?

Quote:

I do not agree with negotiating with or capitulating to terrorists, however, as I do not believe in rewarding terrorists for murdering innocents, and I firmly believe it only encourages more of the same. I think that is doubly so with fanatical fundamental Islamic terrorists who would exterminate every Jew in Israel given half a chance to do so and who don't care how many Palestinians are killed, injured, maimed, or rendered homeless in the process.

But there are Israeli's who would advocate the same against Palestinians, yet we don't say that justifies terrorism. Injustice is not justified by injustice -- and that goes both ways.

I want to ask you one thing: what do you suggest that Palestinians should do to get justice? What are their options?

0 Replies

FreeDuck wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
FD:

I disagree that there are no Palestinians mentioned on the list prior to 1967. Look again.

You said there were a "fair number", which I pointed out not to be true. I didn't say there were none.

Well in the 10 year period prior to l967 there are at least three or four refrences to Palestinian or Fatah which, in that context, would be synonymous with Palestinian. So if three or four isn't, a 'fair number', how many would you say would be a 'fair number'?

Quote:

Quote:
But whether or not terrorists are identified with Palestinians, the Palestinians did nothing to convince the Israelis that they disapproved of, did not support, did not condone terrorist activity against the Israelis. The PLO charter was drawn up PRIOR TO 1967.

And this is a justification for the current situation?

It is certainly a reason. Most of us do not trust those who want to see us destroyed, damaged, or hurt and/or support those who intend to do that.

Quote:

Quote:
I do not agree with negotiating with or capitulating to terrorists, however, as I do not believe in rewarding terrorists for murdering innocents, and I firmly believe it only encourages more of the same. I think that is doubly so with fanatical fundamental Islamic terrorists who would exterminate every Jew in Israel given half a chance to do so and who don't care how many Palestinians are killed, injured, maimed, or rendered homeless in the process.

But there are Israeli's who would advocate the same against Palestinians, yet we don't say that justifies terrorism. Injustice is not justified by injustice -- and that goes both ways.

Show me any document, any policy, or any action that even remotely could be construed to be intended Israeli genocide against the Palestinians.

Quote:

I want to ask you one thing: what do you suggest that Palestinians should do to get justice? What are their options?

The Palestinians should reject and disavow themselves of any support for Palestinian government or policy committed to the extermination of Israel.

The Palestinians should publicly and without equivocation denounce terrorist activities of all kinds and should not support or protect terrorists in any way.

The Palestinians should pledge allegiance to Israeli law and their commitment to be law abiding and peaceful citizens of Israel and do whatever they can to put that into practice.

If they do that, I think you would see Israel's attitude and behavior toward the Palestinians change dramatically--perhaps not overnight, but within a reasonable time as the Palestinians proved to be trustworthy, and then if the excessive discriminatory practices continued, I will join you in condemning Israel.

Until then, I think Israel is justified in doing whatever it must to protect and defend itself.

0 Replies

Carter blames Israel for Mideast conflict

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know