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Carter blames Israel for Mideast conflict

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 10:15 am
High Seas wrote:
For anyone unfamiliar with the columnist "Burt Prelutsky", whose article dated Friday, December 22, 2006, was just posted by McGentrix, the man writes the humor column at the LA Times; he was also the scriptwriter for the TV series MASH.

Both are great references for his new-found expertise in U.S. Midlle Eastern strategic deployments.


Yep, can't comment on the opinion, instead comment on the author....
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High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 10:17 am
An author's qualifications and expertise have some distant bearing on the validity of his opinions - usually Smile
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 10:21 am
High Seas wrote:
An author's qualifications and expertise have some distant bearing on the validity of his opinions - usually Smile


Especially when you pick and choose qualifications.

Quote:
Burt Prelutsky, a very nice person once you get to know him, has been a humor columnist for the L.A. Times and a movie critic for Los Angeles magazine. As a freelancer, he has written for the New York Times, Washington Times, TV Guide, Modern Maturity, Emmy, Holiday, American Film, and Sports Illustrated.

For television, he has written for Dragnet, McMillan & Wife, MASH, Mary Tyler Moore, Rhoda, Bob Newhart, Family Ties, Dr. Quinn and Diagnosis Murder. In addition, he has written a batch of terrific TV movies.

Talk about being well-rounded, he plays tennis and poker... and rarely cheats at either.
He lives in the San Fernando Valley, where he takes his marching orders from a wife named Yvonne and a dog named Duke.


When you look at his whole resume, it adds a bit of qualification, doesn't it.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 10:43 am
Burt wrote:
Where does one begin to deal with all the lies foisted off by Mr. Peanut?


Obviously not in his opinion piece. A little more fact and a little less implicit accusations of ghost writing and appeasement might make his opinion worthy of discussion. As it is though... moving on...
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 10:46 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Advocate wrote:
It is nonsense to say that Israel never wanted peace. It has gone to great lengths, with risk, to secure peace. A post on some strange site hardly contradicts this.


I also agree with this. Some of Israel's leaders have gone the extra mile to try to resolve the conflict. Unfortunately, some others have worked just as tirelessly to reverse any progress that was made. This goes for Palestine as well, though their leadership, until recently, has been harder to define. I fully believe though, and Carter also says this, that a majority of Israelis and a majority of Palestinians want to make peace and live in peace with each other. Now we just need strong leadership on both sides, preferably leaders with a death wish, and a US president willing to make it happen.



Who are those Israeli leaders who have worked tirelessly to reverse any progress in finding peace? I don't know of any. There are a percentage of Israelis who have become very leery of giving any concessions to the Pals, who have consistently rewarded Israel with backstabbing.

There was a great effort at securing peace at Camp David, But Arafat not only walked away without counteroffers, but then effectively began a war on Israel that continues to this day. Now Israel is supposed to offer concessions to a Hamas-led government that is sworn to destroy Israel.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 11:23 am
Advocate wrote:
Who are those Israeli leaders who have worked tirelessly to reverse any progress in finding peace?


Ariel Sharon, until he had his later change of heart, went out of his way to provoke the Palestinians and expand settlement activity in the West Bank. He refused to hold talks with the Palestinians to negotiate a final status. He came up with the wall idea which is nothing more than a cemented land grab. These actions and others reversed the progress that had been made since Oslo.

There is at least one other leader who I think has done as much to prevent peace, but I'll have to do a bit more research to back up that claim.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 11:45 am
Advocate wrote:
[
Who are those Israeli leaders who have worked tirelessly to reverse any progress in finding peace? I don't know of any. There are a percentage of Israelis who have become very leery of giving any concessions to the Pals, who have consistently rewarded Israel with backstabbing.

There was a great effort at securing peace at Camp David, But Arafat not only walked away without counteroffers, but then effectively began a war on Israel that continues to this day. Now Israel is supposed to offer concessions to a Hamas-led government that is sworn to destroy Israel.


Menachem Begin, Shamir, Benjanin Netanyahu, Ariel Sharon for starters. There were opposing voices, but they were either taken from the scene too early (Rabin) or ineffective (Ezer Weitzman).

I believe the camp David story has been thoroughly debunked. Bill Clinton certainly made a great effort to put a notch on his belt, but otherwise nothing serious was done by either party. The Israeli offer was a cynical formula for continued Palestinian servitude in pseudo "states" entirely surrounded by Israeli territory, with no borders with any other state no connections among themselves,, and no control of the airspace above them or the water flowing through them. It involved less than 40% of the territory of the West Bank - even though it was advertised as 95% - in fact it was 95% of What Israel arbitrarily considered "negotiable". There was nothing left to negotiate: this offer neither merited nor got a counter offer, and it is decsitful of you to infer fault on Arafat's part for not responding.
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 12:06 pm
JLNobody wrote:
I think we should support Isreal . . .


What does this mean, though? In what way do you think we should support Israel, specifically?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 12:11 pm
JLN, You surprised me with your "we should support Israel" statement. I'm also curious; what does this mean? Please enlighten us.
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High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 01:21 pm
InfraBlue and Cicerone - allow me to answer that pro tem:

1. The unquestioned U.S. interests in the region are (a) access to natural resources and (b) free passage in sea lanes.

2. Anyone currently in the U.S. whose map of Eurasia has shrunk to include only a Middle Eastern ghetto (petroleum-free) with a couple of ports, but no access to major sea lanes, should be examined for other symptoms of dementia, because,

3., not only has his map tragically shrunk, but his knowledge of history has also vanished, considering that for its entire 1,000+ years of existence the Russian nation has had one overriding ambition, hitherto thwarted: access to warm-water ports.

4. Proceeding with the "support" advocated by "J.L.Nobody", will naturally throw Iran into the welcoming arms of their neighbors to the north, who will in one stroke gain not only the most desirable sea lanes - the Persian Gulf and the Arabian Sea - but also access to a third of the petroleum resources in the Middle East.


Final: George OB, I'm your old friend formerly of the Bandar Abbas naval base; just back on this board after years of absence and under a new name.

Recently I stood and looked at supertankers sailing out of the Straits of Hormuz - 20 of them a day - loaded to above the waterline with about a million barrels of oil. Each one of them.

Anyone who understands points (1) to (4) above, and further understands that these 20 daily cargoes are the lifeblood of the Western economies and Japan, and STILL parrots slogans about continued "support" for a non-allied country is a candidate for prosecution on the charge of treason. If I were advocating such "support" myself, I too would sign as "...Nobody" <G>
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blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 01:29 pm
Advocate, "Who are those Israeli leaders who have worked tirelessly to reverse any progress in finding peace? I don't know of any." You wont admit to any is closer to the truth. There were events this summer that have been posted several times on threads you were on but you seem to have ignored. When a group led by Rabbi Froman and the Jerusalem Peacekeepers called a press conference to be attended by Hamas government figures announcing Hamas willingness to accept a 2 state solution using the green line as borders Shin Bet prevented the press conference from happening and the next day Israel killed a Pestinian family on a beach on Gaza, and later arrested a bunch of Hamas Cabinet members and attacked Gaza. And then the war crime in Lebanon instead of a prisoner exchange certainly showed up the insanity of Olmert and Peretz. It's no secret at all that a press conference where Hamas calls for an extended truce and acceptence of a 2 state solution is what Israel's imperialist leaders fear most.
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blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 01:37 pm
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 02:49 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Will Jimmy Carter please just go away?
By Burt Prelutsky
Friday, December 22, 2006
........

Forgetting Jews in congress and the senate, why would any American, aside from Steven ("Munich") Spielberg, find a moral equivalency between Palestinians and Israelis? Israel keeps trying to trade land for peace, and they keep getting their school buses and pizza parlors blown up in exchange. For people who are traditionally known to be pretty sharp when it comes to horse-trading, this doesn't seem like a very smart way to conduct business. But, God knows, they keep trying.

Something that Carter, who has often boasted of his close friendship with Yasser Arafat, insists on overlooking is that prior to 1948, the "Palestinians" were in fact the Jews living on the land that was the basis for the modern state of Israel. It was land, mainly sand, they had bought at inflated prices from Arabs for over 50 years. The fact that it is now the Arabs who are known as Palestinians is the result of a clever P.R. firm that suggested that if they wanted to picture themselves as underdogs in order to garner sympathy, they should stop calling themselves Arabs. After all, there were only about five million Jews in Israel and about 125 million Arabs surrounding them, and calling for their extinction.

Now why on earth would Carter call for a balanced approach? After all, Israel, in spite of occasional differences with the U.S., is a staunch ally, one of the few nations that sides us with us at the U.N., and is the only western democracy in a part of the world where Islamic Nazis run wild.

Whenever I hear an American claim that he favors Arabs in this ongoing conflict, a conflict perpetuated by a people who think Hitler left the job only half-done, I wonder why. Whenever I hear an American claim that people who treat their women like chattel; who live under theocratic rule; who oppose freedom of speech and certainly religion; who cheered and danced on 9/11 and then, for good measure, insisted that Israel was behind the attack; and who pay homage to suicide bombers; are preferable to Israelis, a people who share our values and who are exactly like us, except that they're Jewish, I know that I'm in the presence of an anti-Semite.

Even if he happens to be a former president of the United States.


McGentrix, I am surprised at your willingness to post here such obviously distorted propaganda. The misstatements of fact and tortured sophistry of this piece should be offensive to an independent thinking and objective reader.

Word games about just who are Palestinians and who Arabs are mere distortions. The fact is that European Zionists did indeed finance the purchases of Arab/Palestinian land in the years prior to WWII, but that amounts to a very tiny portion of what was seized by force in 1947-1948 and in the 1967 War.

The 'moral equivalency' of Jews and Arabs is simply that they are all human beings with the same natural rights. Extremists on both sides (sadly a majority after 50 years of conflict) want unequal treatment for the other side. Whether this unequal treatment is the pervasive discrimination against non Jew residents of Israel; the horrible oppression visited on the Palestinian residents of the West bank by the Israeli military occupation and systematic seizure of land and property; or the fanatic desire of many Moslems to wipe out the "Zionist Entity" is beside the point. All of these things are the causes for the continuing conflict and together they give the United States no reason to prefer one side to the other in this tragic conflict.

That we do otherwise is clearly a result of the quite understandable political activity of American Jews. I have no quarrel with their motives or actions to date. Following the horrors of WWII the need for a homeland for Jews was compelling, and their historical affinity for Palestine was understandable. However neither of these factors required that the new state must be built on a foundation of injustice to and oppression for the previous (and innocent) inhabitants of that land. Given the present situation, I see no way for Israel's continued survival and prosperity other than the abandonment of the concept of an exclusively Jewish state of Israel. This tribal and theocratic exclusivity is a retrograde idea, a relic of an earlier age, and it is simply a lie to call Israel a "Modern Western Democracy" as long as she clings to that idea and the injustice it creates.

The intolerance of Moslems and their unequal treatment of women are not sufficient cause for Israel to further oppress these people or for our country to aid them in doing so. The remedy for intolerance and oppression is never more intolerance and more oppression. Our unilateral aid to Israel has sadly done them little good. It has emboldened their most aggressive and acquisitive political elements and insulated them from the realities of their situation. Continued expropriation of Palestinian land and injustice towards the people will only require more and worse actions by Israel to perpetuate this tyranny and more one-sided actions on our part.

This support is hardly in our strategic interest and the votes of Israel in the UN General Assembly are hardly compensation for all the trouble this has caused us. High Seas has outlined an essential part of our strategic interest that is seriously jeapordized by our uncritical support of Israeli policies that are neither in their long-term interest or ours. We have become dupes for the most retrograde and exploitive elements in Israeli politics and silencers of wiser voices both there and here.

The suggestion that those who oppose certain policies of the Israeli government are necessarioly anti Semites is a worn out and offensive canard, insulting to people who read it. You should apologize for posting this crap.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 03:21 pm
I only did so to show the opposing viewpoints Georgeob1.

But I wonderer while reading your reply, and others, why Muslims are entitled to exclusively Muslim state, while the Jews are not. Should the Jews meet the Muslim intolerance and killings with understanding and tolerance? The history of the region has shown that repeated attacks from Muslims against Israel have left the region in the state that it is.

Israeli reaction to Muslim attacks can not be looked at exclusively as the fault of the Israeli's. Palestinians voted to have Hamas as their leaders despite the violent hostory and terrorist roots of the group. How is that an effort to make peace with Israel? WHat are the Palestinians or border countries doing to make peace with Israel. I do not see the situation de-escalating until the countries in the region decide to accept the fact that Israel exists and will continue to exist despite their efforts to ignore or destroy her.

Our support of Israel is one of the main reasons America is so despised in the region. Our military, social and economic support is necessary though because otherwise they will cease to exist, not in our best interests.

I won't apologize for posting the article though because it represents as valid a viewpoint as any other.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 03:36 pm
I don't think anyone is "entitled" to an exclusive state, and I further believe we are headed to a major confrontation with the Islamist world over this and related issues. Sadly, our thoughtless and unquestioning support of the worst instincts of the worst elements in Israeli politics has made the situation far worse, emboldening our Islamist opponents, gaining them the support of those who might otherwise be our allies, and clouding our moral position for ourselves and others.

The recent success of Hamas can be traced directly to the unwise and unjust policy of Israeli Likud governments since the 1967 War. I believe you are confusing cause and effect here. The First law of Holes is -- "When you are in one, stop digging." It is time for Israel and the United States to stop digging.

You cannot justify posting an obviously deceitful and obnoxious slander by the insipid desire to show opposing viewpoints. There is nothing valid in the lie that all who oppose Israeli policy are anti Semites. it is a blunt stick with which greedy and unjust politicians have silenced reasoned debate on a fundamental issue of great national importance.

You should apologize for doing that.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 03:57 pm
No.

You are welcome to disagree with it and explain why, but there is no reason for me to apologize for posting it Georgeob1.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 04:05 pm
I defy you to show where any of the leaders said that they were dead set against reaching a peace pact with the Pals. Froman is a fringe character, who I won't discuss.

Camp David was never debunked, as someone said.

BlueFlame, why don't you admit that you believe in the elimination of Israel. You support the demands of Hamas, which surely will lead to elimination.

It is true that good fences make good neighbors. That is why the USA will build one on its southern border.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 04:18 pm
Advocate wrote:
I defy you to show where any of the leaders said that they were dead set against reaching a peace pact with the Pals. Froman is a fringe character, who I won't discuss.

Camp David was never debunked, as someone said.

BlueFlame, why don't you admit that you believe in the elimination of Israel. You support the demands of Hamas, which surely will lead to elimination.

It is true that good fences make good neighbors. That is why the USA will build one on its southern border.


But I didn't say that any of the named leaders were opposed to or dead set against reaching a peace pact with the Palestinians. What I said was the peace agreements they sought (and all they so far have entertained) would unjustly deprive the Palestinians of land and property and keep them in perpetual servitude to the Israeli master state. You seem to think that changing the question is the same thing as a refutation.

I believe I thoroughly and conclusively debunked the claim that the Camp David discussions yielded a significant and negotiable Israeli offer. You have failed utterly to dispute or deny any of the valid points I made in doing so. Merely saying it didn't happen accomplishes nothing.

I doubt seriously that the fence we are constructing on our southern border will improve our neighborly relations with Mexico. We have only ourselves to blame for not enforcing our immigration laws and not creating a guest worker program for the support of industries that we have long known were dependent on Mexican labor. A fence is a poor substitute for those things. Just as the israeli wall in the West bank is a poor substitute for justice and peace.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 04:33 pm
georgeob wrote: I doubt seriously that the fence we are constructing on our southern border will improve our neighborly relations with Mexico. We have only ourselves to blame for not enforcing our immigration laws and not creating a guest worker program for the support of industries that we have long known were dependent on Mexican labor. A fence is a poor substitute for those things. Just as the israeli wall in the West bank is a poor substitute for justice and peace.

I also agree with your analysis of the southern border fence; it's a waste of money when our government refuses to enforce laws already on the books. Bush sells the fence, because many Americans think that'll stop the illegal immigration - out of pure ignorance
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blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 06:37 pm
Advocate, "Froman is a fringe character". Together with the Jerusalem Peacekeepers Froman had scheduled a a press conference that threatened to lead to peace. All Israelis who take such measures are fringe charectors bent on the "elimination" of Israel. Ask any Swift Boater.
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