Carter blames Israel for Mideast conflict

It's about as profound and thoughtful as your response to BBB.

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au wrote:
I would also ask the Israel bashers why they are so ready to condemn Israel but unless I missed it have not even mentioned word one about the holocaust deniers convention now going on in Iran. And the constant threat to destroy Israel? Do you share that opinion at least the destroy Israel concept.



I don't know what the Iranian leadership hopes to accomplish through their holocaust convention. People ranging from holocaust deniers, and minimizes to Orthodox Jews like Rabbis Moishe Ayre Friedman, and Aharon Cohen, and the Neturei Karta (Guardians of the City) who certainly don't deny the holocaust, but oppose the creation of the state of Israel on religious grounds attended the convention.
The orthodox Jews that you speak of although small in number have always been around. They believe as very few do that only the arrival of the biblical messiah will allow for the rebirth of Israel. AND have Spoken against the creation of the state of Israel from day one. They will attend any conference or meeting that advocates the destruction of the state of Israel. Religious fanatics of any persuation are still religious fanatics
There is some confusion as the result of the conflation of words expressed by the Iranian president. He's quoted as saying that "the Zionist regime will be wiped out soon the same way the Soviet Union was," and the media headlines say "Ahmadinjad: Israel will be 'wiped out.'"
A regime is not a state, it is the form of government of a state, the government in power. This conflation of terms, and the resulting confusion helps to stoke the paranoia that's behind the rationalization for the existence of a chauvanistic and bigoted ethnocentric state.
There was no confusion about his thoughts and desires regarding the future of state of Israel. It has no place in the Moslem world and must be destroyed. You are not so naive to believe otherwise.



The Iranian leadership is as extremist as the far right Zionists in that they propose the transfer of Ashkenazi Jews back to Europe after the destruction of the Zionist regime much like the rightist Zionists propose the transfer of the Palestinians to the Arab countries. In its place it would install a Muslim theocratic regime.

This isn't very much different from the expressed desires of some of Israel's leadership like its very deputy prime-minister, Avigdor Lieberman, who proposes the segregation of Israel, and the application of "loyalty tests" to its Arab citizens whereby they would confirm the existence of their nation as the Jewish State.
That is old hat and has been said and echoed many times by the extreme right wing. Since there is freedom of speech in Israel as there is in the US people can express their thoughts freely. That
does not make it state policy. If it were, considering how many times it has been proposed it would have been many years ago.

One difference between ethnocentirsts like Ahmadinjad and Lieberman is that the former is vilified thorughout the Western world. The latter is invited to meet US officials like its Secretary of State, Condoleza Rice.

Now that you are shedding tears for the rights of the Palestinians how about shedding some for the Jews in Arab lands. Who had to leave with only the shirts on their backs, Jews I might add that had been in those lands for more than a Millennium. I would note that
there were as many jew that fled from Arab nations as there were Arabs that left Israel.Somehow I never hear anything about compensation for them.

Now on another but allied subject. What do you think would have happened the Jews had they not defeated the Arab armies in 48 or in any of the other wars? There would have been a second Holocaust.

Why not? What gives you the right to tell a sovereign nation that they can't be ethnocentric? Not everybody believes in multi-culturalism, ya know. By what authority do you claim the right to oppose this "ethnocentricity?"

For the record, I support Israel's right to exist, but that's about the extent of my support. I agree that their tactics are often brutal and that our unconditional support of them should cease. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Palestinians are innocent either, but I think the Israelis need to fight their own wars. I see a direct correlation between our unconditional support of Israel, and Arab hatred of America. Not to mention that the billions of tax dollars that we faithfully give to them could go to much better use. With that said, I have no problem with their ethnocentricity.

The Trap of Recognising Israel


link

It's not just that the Zionist regime is an ethnocentric one. It's very existence necessarily discriminates against and oppresses the Palestinian people. Discrimination and oppression should be opposed on moral grounds, or "authority" if you wish.

Inside Israel

Rabbis Call to Excommunicate Neturei Karta Members in Iran
15:34 Dec 14, '06 / 23 Kislev 5767
by Hana Levi Julian and Hillel Fendel


Israel's Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger and the Save the Nation and Land rabbinic organization have called for members of the anti-Zionist Neturei Karta sect to be excommunicated.


The unusal calls follow the visit to Iran by a group of senior officials of the small sect to take part in a conference aiming to present evidence that the Holocaust never took place. Photographs of the hareidi-looking Jews happily embracing Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have been widely circulated in many countries.

Chief Rabbi Metzger called on all rabbis and communities in Israel and around the world to honor the memory of the Holocaust victims by adhering to the cherem call against the Neturei Karta members.

Rabbis of the Save the Nation and Land also made a similar call to "shun those who visited Iran, and they may not take part in communal events." The organization plans to place ads in the religious press, with the pictures and addresses of the men to be excommunicated.

The organization issued this statement:
"While the entire world is shocked at the provocative threats to destroy the Jewish presence in the Land of Israel, Jews dressed as hareidim come to identify and show solidarity with the leader of Iran, may his name be erased. Aside from the terrible desecration of G-d's Name before the whole world, this is also aid and cooperation for the plans of enemies of Israel to carry out another Holocaust, may G-d save us, upon millions of Jews. These despicable people must be excommunicated, and every Jew is forbidden to have contact with them and certainly not to include them in prayers and the like."

Rabbi Metzger said in his statement to Jewish leaders around the globe, "They [those who embraced Ahmadinajad] betrayed the Jewish people and their heritage and particularly disgraced and desecrated the memory of the Holocaust. With their shameful behavior, they tried to stain the Jewish people, who shy away from this low conduct."

Former Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yisrael Meir Lau, a child Holocaust survivor who is currently the Chief Rabbi of Tel Aviv, also condemned the Neturei Karta group. "It is something completely insane," he said flatly. "Is it conceivable that any Jew, for whatever reason, would support a Holocaust denier in a generation when people with numbers tattooed on their arms are still among us? It is an insanity that has no justification and no explanation."

The hareidi religious Eida Hareidit, an anti-Zionist Jerusalem-based council of Hassidic courts and other hareidi religious groups - including the Neturei Karta - was equally harsh in its response to the group's actions.

In a sharply-worded editorial published Thursday, the Ha'Eida newspaper said, "That tiny group of wierdos is liable to incite hatred against hareidim."

Editor Shmuel Popenheim wrote in his piece, "Those people's distorted anti-Zionist zealotry, which is sanctified in their eyes above and beyond the opinion of our Torah sages, brought them to that conference." He stopped short of endorsing the call for a cherem on the group, and estimated there were no more than ten people in all of Israel who supported the group's actions and perhaps some 25 others worldwide.

(Directory > Words > Dictionary
ex·com·mu·ni·cate

1) To deprive of the right
2) To exclude
3) Banish
4) oust... )

Now that is one thing Israel has enormous experience, skill and expertise in. They will not fail.

Zippo, You are a riot. LOL

I believe the essential problem of the Israeli Palestinian dispute is that both sides appear to want sectarian states with special privileges for different groups of "special" people. In the case of Israel this issue goes to the basic character of the Zionist state - a homeland for Jews everywhere. In the case of the Palestinians, the matter is, in fact, less clearly one-sided, though as the conflict has continued, militant Islamists have increasingly made the Palestinian issue a Moslem issue. This is unfortunate because until recently Lebanon was a viable regional model for a modern non-sectarian state, accommodating (reasonably well) Sunni, Shia, Christians and even some Jews.

As long as both sides in this dispute, Israel included, hold to these views and these aims, there will be no peace. Sadly, the longer the current struggle lasts, the less likely any peaceful solution becomes. In another age one side or the other would conquer and suppress or wipe out the other, and life would move on. The modern world won't accept such a resolution, so the impasse continues...

George, Good post; however, the first move must be made by Israel to give legal rights to the Palestinians before anything can be accomplished.

Agreed, good post.

I find it to be interesting that there are quite few left from the original group whom the conflicts started with; everything just kind of rolls along under its own momentum these days.

Cycloptichorn

Sadly the Israelis would say they have already given legal rights to Palestiunian citizens of Israel (though not quite equal rights). I suspect they would go on to say they must be given assurances of their safety before fully surrendering their remaining controls in the occupied territiories, and that history has proven that the Palestinians cannot be trusted to live up to any agreement with them. Unfortunately there is merit in this argument.

For their part the Palestinians demand the right of return of people who left or were displaced in 1946, and some still demand the removal of the "Zionist entity".

There is no reconciling these points of view. Moreover the Palestinians have not shown any willingness to create a government and society that will take care of its people and function independently of the continued struggle and the financing it gets them. For their part the Israelis have shown no inclination to grant the Palestinians real power over their territories - control of borders, air and water rights. Without these things no two state solution is possible.

Politicians talk loudly of the "Peace Process". I believe the effort is merely a charade. Nothing constructive can happen until the zealots on both sides give up their core aspirations. History teaches us that things will have to get much worse, on both sides, for that to happen.

george, I agree again. There is no solution to the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians if we only look backwards. However, I believe there are enough good people on both sides that truly seeks peace and harmony. Otherwise, all their current efforts are for naught; and I will not give up hope as long as there are people on both sides working towards a goal.

Our tour director in Israel is one who also believes the Palestinians cannot be trusted. A Palestinian women we had a discussion with also hates Jews for limiting her freedoms and opportunities to find work.

Somewhere in between these two positions, there must be compromise and agreement to work together. I know there are American Jews working towards harmony and peace in Israel. A friend of mine (a non-Jew) who lives near Seattle was invited to join their group recently.

Let's support those folks working towards harmony in Israel.

I agree Cicerone,

However, as was illustrated in blueflame's post above, things will have to get much worse before the intransigant zealots - on both sides - are moved to give up their sectarian aspirations and listen to the voices of harmony and moderation - also on both sides. I am not optimistic.

georgeob, from my article I see one side making a real progressive overture and one side doing everything within it's power to keep a 2 state solution from happening. History is very bloody since Shin Bet nixed that press conference. Still the Jerusalem Peacekeepers and Rabbi Froman brought Hamas to the table and that is the biggest threat to the asperations of the current Israeli regime.

True enough. However I doubt you would claim that the Palestinians are free of their own zealots and plotters who similarly benefit from a continued struggle. Yasser Arafat was a prime example.

The Green Line is the border

By Ze'ev Sternhell

With one stroke of a pen, Education Minister Yuli Tamir managed to restore to the public agenda the basic question that should not have been marginalized in the first place on the validity, significance and legitimacy of the Green Line. The decision is an ideological one, as was the decision to erase the 1949 cease-fire line from textbooks.

It is hard to understand why the line's deletion was justified and its restoration deemed unacceptable by settlers and their supporters. It is true that there is no sanctity in the cease-fire line beyond the fact that turning it into an official border is the only possible basis for determining Israel's final territorial arrangements and for ending the war both with the Palestinians and with the Arab countries.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/801429.html