Carter blames Israel for Mideast conflict

Jews have been some of the most oppressed people through out history. This, however, does not mean that they should somehow be given moral leniency in their actions. The Holocaust is constantly exploited as an excuse to justify the illegal actions of the Zionists; anyone who does not support their cause is labeled as being "anti-semetic." Normal G. Finkelstein, a Jew and son of Holocaust survivors wrote a terrific book on this subject entitled "Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History."

That being said Carter tells it like it really is. Israel is the only country in the world that completely legalizes torture, kidnapping, and demolishing of civilian homes as forms of punishment. The World Court has even ruled that Israeli occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem as being illegal under international law. International Law is clear: lands obtained from war must be returned after the conflict is over, but Israel has continued to occupy those lands and has never even offered to compromise with Palestinians over the situation. Israel continues to be reckless in its actions. During the latest conflicts between Israelis and Palestinians something like 600 Palestininian children were killed (which is the number of total of Jewish civilians killed) and 3000 Palestinians civilians total. Why are 5x's as many Palestinians being killed? That is a lot of "collateral damage."

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Gravenewworld
Gravenewworld, welcome to A2K. Your post was impressive.

I've always been a supporter of the State of Israel, but they are sorely testing my patience and moral values. I'm not a member of the "Israel can do no wrong club."

The Palestinian people are also behaving badly against their best interests. They were betrayed by Arafat, who was a successful terrorist, but was not a skillful nor qualified government leader. He couldn't shed his terrorist mind and his leadership failures doomed his people.

There is one thing that distresses me the most about the behavior of the fundamentalist segment of Israel's leadership. How can the people who experienced The Holocaust against the Jews behave so badly against another religious and ethnic people? They are treating the Palestinians in a manner that reminds me of the Jews treatment by the Nazis, except for using the gas ovens. How can they inflict such treatment after suffering it themselves?

If there is one thing that gets in the way of peace between these two people, it is their mutual cultures and history. Both Arabs and Jews are tribal societies and both are historically vengeance societies. Recall the biblical "eye for an eye" custom. The biggest difference between them is that while the Arabs retain their vengeance society, they have not establish legal institutions outside their religious laws and customs to settle their disputes. Disputes are settled at the local level of family, clan, tribe and religious dogma. They have not liberated their women to play an active role in political leadership. Testosterone runs rampant unrestrained by estrogen.

The Israelis have established legal institutions and processes to settle domestic disputes rather than family revenge. (The exception is when they murdered Rabin.) But that does not seem to apply to their dominant civilian and military leadership, who appear to follow the revenge pattern. This has settled nothing but to prolong the killing and destruction.

BBB

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Israel was happy to live within the '67 borders, even though it was constantly under attack by the Pals. However, the Pal attacks in the '67 war permitted Israel land that were prizes of war.

It is interesting that Israel has retreated from Gaza, but that this didn't deter the Pals from continuing to attack Israel proper.

It is so terrible that Israel defends itself.

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Advocate wrote:

Israel was happy to live within the '67 borders, even though it was constantly under attack by the Pals. However, the Pal attacks in the '67 war permitted Israel land that were prizes of war.

Wrongo. It most certainly did not permit 'prizes of war.' Israel took those lands by force and is holding them by force, no other right.

Quote:

It is interesting that Israel has retreated from Gaza, but that this didn't deter the Pals from continuing to attack Israel proper.

It is so terrible that Israel defends itself.

Gaza has little to no strategic significance. Israel retreating from Gaza (which didn't last too long, btw) was a meaningless gesture; they took the opportunity to shore up their west bank operations at the same time.

You have no credibility at all when discussing Israel, becuase you will never admit that they do anything wrong, ever. You are just like a neocon talking about America, man...

Cycloptichorn

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Advocate wrote:

Israel was happy to live within the '67 borders, even though it was constantly under attack by the Pals. However, the Pal attacks in the '67 war permitted Israel land that were prizes of war.

Let's just pretend that this is true for a minute. So now the West Bank and Gaza are part of Israel. So what of the residents of those places?

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Who is the real aggressor?

Starting with the United Nations Partition Plan, 1947, the original borders for the state of Israel are quite limited. This index illustrates the significant border changes after the 1949 War of Independence, after the six day war of 1967, than after the 1982 return of Sinai and the invasion of Lebanon, and finally after Palestinian autonomy and Lebanon withdrawal in 2000.

But the most notable map is the one that identifies the Israeli settlements on the West Bank. A careful analysis of the locations and the areas that are an effective no man's land, demonstrates the consequences of the expanded settlements. It is hard to believe that Israel will ever agree to remove their own population from these areas.

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/maps/images/hist_partition.jpg

The United Nations Partition Plan, 1947

from the Applied Research Institute in Jerusalem and An Atlas of Palestine

http://batr.org/wrack_/031202.html

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Zippo, The area surrounding the Sea of Galilee (The Golan Heights) that Syria once controlled have been reverted back to Israel in an agreement after the Yom Kipper War of 1967. The UN now patrols a buffer zone between the two countries.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Advicate wrote: CI, you can't be so ignorant to say that Israel extends no legal rights to its Pals. You come across as antisemitic making this and other such statements.

Only the most extreme Jews call people like me "anti-semitic," because you're unable to explain the illegal takeover of Palestinian properties in Israel. Read "The Other Side of Israel" by Susan Nathan. She presently lives in a Palestinian village in Israel. She has first-hand information about the land grab by Jews in Israel that leaves Palestinians without any legal rights to their own homes and property. I was in Israel last October, and we were able to have a discussion with a young Palestinian woman now living in the Old City of Jerusalem. She hates the Jews for restricting her movements, job opportunities, and mistreatments just because she is Palestinian. Her family has lived in Israel for generations, and she has no rights in her own country.

If that makes me anti-semitic, I'm glad to wear that label.

The idea of Israel wanting more and more land certainly is a legitimate point of debate. Somewhere in the discussion, and I find this completely missing in many of the pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel posts is the acknowledgement of the Palestinian philosophy that Israel should have NO land, should not be allowed to exist, and should be destroyed. In 1948, several Arab nations voted not to allow the formation of the state of Israel, although Israel ultimately won that vote. The Palestinian area was originally five times the size of the area they have now, and the Palestinians still refused to acknowledge Israel's right to exist.

How does Israel deal with a body of people who simply believe at the core of their philosophy that Israel should not exist?

The wall that Israel built is not an "Apartheid wall". It is to keep suicide bombers from entering within the Israeli population and murdering people. When the Palestinian government chose to elect a terrorist militia like Hamas to represent them, that was a clear signal to Israel that there would be more death, destruction, terror, suicide bombings, and fighting.

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MC, You fail to see the plight of the Palestinians; they have been under siege for decades by the Israelis with no legal rights in their own country. Under those circumstances, you can expect their frustrations and no freedoms to turn into violence against their perpetrators. I just wonder how you would handle the same situation if you were in the Palestinian's shoe?

Your first sentence about Israel wanting more and more land is only one of the issues; they are stealing Palestinian lands and developing settlements for Jews. You may not see anything wrong with this, but many of us do.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

MC, You fail to see the plight of the Palestinians; they have been under siege for decades by the Israelis with no legal rights in their own country. Under those circumstances, you can expect their frustrations and no freedoms to turn into violence against their perpetrators. I just wonder how you would handle the same situation if you were in the Palestinian's shoe?

Your first sentence about Israel wanting more and more land is only one of the issues; they are stealing Palestinian lands and developing settlements for Jews. You may not see anything wrong with this, but many of us do.

CI
Since you choose to ignore the wars that the people of Israel had to fight just to stay alive as a nation and the many suicide bombers that they have been forced to endure. I would ask do you take the Iranian and the general Arab position that Israel has no right to exist?

I would also ask the Israel bashers why they are so ready to condemn Israel but unless I missed it have not even mentioned word one about the holocaust deniers convention now going on in Iran. And the constant threat to destroy israel? Do you share that opinion at least the destroy Israel concept.

Further, If you do not wish the obliteration of the Jewish state under what conditions would you allow it to exist.

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au1929
au1929 wrote: Further, If you do not wish the obliteration of the Jewish state under what conditions would you allow it to exist.

Live within their own legal borders would be a good start.

BBB

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Re: au1929

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

au1929 wrote: Further, If you do not wish the obliteration of the Jewish state under what conditions would you allow it to exist.

Live within their own legal borders would be a good start.

BBB

There are no legal borders as far as the Arabs are concerned.

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And apparently also as far as Israelis are concerned.

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FreeDuck

IS that your well thoughout and profound answer to my questions?

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au wrote:

I would also ask the Israel bashers why they are so ready to condemn Israel but unless I missed it have not even mentioned word one about the holocaust deniers convention now going on in Iran. And the constant threat to destroy israel? Do you share that opinion at least the destroy Israel concept.

I don't know what the Iranian leadership hopes to accomplish through thier holocaust convention. People ranging from holocaust denyers, and minimizers to Orthodox Jews like Rabbis Moishe Ayre Friedman, and Aharon Cohen, and the Neturei Karta (Guardians of the City) who certainly don't deny the holocaust, but oppose the creation of the state of Israel on religious grounds attended the convention.

There is some confusion as the result of the conflation of words expressed by the Iranian president. He's quoted as saying that "the Zionist regime will be wiped out soon the same way the Soviet Union was," and the media headlines say "Ahmadinjad: Israel will be 'wiped out.'"

A regime is not a state, it is the the form of government of a state, the government in power. This conflation of terms, and the resulting confusion helps to stoke the paranoia that's behind the rationalization for the extistance of a chauvanistic and bigoted ethnocentric state.

The Iranian leadership is as extremist as the far right Zionists in that they propose the transfer of Ashkenazi Jews back to Europe after the destruction of the Zionist regime much like the rightist Zionists propose the transfer of the Palestinians to the Arab countries. In its place it would install a Muslim theocratic regime.

This isn't very much different from the expressed desires of some of Israel's leadership like its very deputy prime-minister, Avigdor Lieberman, who proposes the segregation of Israel, and the appliction of "loyalty tests" to its Arab citizens whereby they would confirm the existance of their nation as the Jewish state.

One difference between ethnocentirsts like Ahmadinjad and Lieberman is that the former is vilified thorughout the Western world. The latter is invited to meet US officials like its Secretary of State, Condoleza Rice.

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This brings up a question, however. Why should an ethnocentric regime (i.e. government in power)--one that for its very existence necessarily discriminates and oppresses a people of a different ethnicity--be allowed to exist?

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InfraBlue, Excellent question. Thank you.

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Infrablue
Infrablue, I'm reposting this from a previous page in answer to your excellent question.---BBB

I've always been a supporter of the State of Israel, but they are sorely testing my patience and moral values. I'm not a member of the "Israel can do no wrong club."

The Palestinian people are also behaving badly against their best interests. They were betrayed by Arafat, who was a successful terrorist, but was not a skillful nor qualified government leader. He couldn't shed his terrorist mind and his leadership failures doomed his people.

There is one thing that distresses me the most about the behavior of the fundamentalist segment of Israel's leadership. How can the people who experienced The Holocaust against the Jews behave so badly against another religious and ethnic people? They are treating the Palestinians in a manner that reminds me of the Jews treatment by the Nazis, except for using the gas ovens. How can they inflict such treatment after suffering it themselves?

If there is one thing that gets in the way of peace between these two people, it is their mutual cultures and history. Both Arabs and Jews are tribal societies and both are historically vengeance societies. Recall the biblical "eye for an eye" custom. The biggest difference between them is that while the Arabs retain their vengeance society, they have not establish legal institutions outside their religious laws and customs to settle their disputes. Disputes are settled at the local level of family, clan, tribe and religious dogma. They have not liberated their women to play an active role in political leadership. Testosterone runs rampant unrestrained by estrogen.

The Israelis have established legal institutions and processes to settle domestic disputes rather than family revenge. (The exception is when they murdered Rabin.) But that does not seem to apply to their dominant civilian and military leadership, who appear to follow the revenge pattern. This has settled nothing but to prolong the killing and destruction.

BBB

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BBB, That's not totally true. The Palestinians do not have legal rights to protect their property in Israel, and Jews take over Palestinian property almost at will. Top this with the restrictions imposed on the Palestinians which affects their ability to freedom of movement and seek work gives one an idea why Palestinians may resort to violence. No other democracy in this world are as bigoted. Why the US government continues to support this aparthied state is plain unethical and wrong.

Fortunately, there are Jews both in the US and in Israel who are trying to correct this injustice, but they are still a minority. A friend of mine who lives in the Seattle area was recently invited to join the Jewish American Israel Policy Forum to promote the peaceful co-existence between Israel and its neighbors - in particular with Palestinians.

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Carter blames Israel for Mideast conflict

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