1
   

Illegal Immigrants not a burden to health care?

 
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 03:40 pm
i wonder if any studies have ever been conducted trying to measure the economic impact that would result from removing 11 million people from the united states .
one might assume that unemployment would be further reduced and that both earnings (for most families but not all) and prices of many goods and services would increase .
the citizens of the united states should be presented with what the outcomes would be before being asked if the 11 million illegal immigrants should be deported .
most of the times such seemingly 'straight-forward' questions are asked , the outcomes are usually not communicated beforehand .

i'm reminded that a few years ago a conservative governmant was elected in the province of ontario on the promise of a "common sense revolution " and reduction in the provincial income tax .
being somewhat of a numbers-man , i tried to figure out how the government would be able to fulfill its financial obligations in addition to giving a tax cut .
the solution was really quite simple :
the provincial taxes were reduced and the municipal government s were saaddled with much larger expenses .
NET RESULT : in the end we paid more taxes in total , but the provincial government was able to proclaim : WE REDUCED THE TAXES !

so i'm wondering : will the united states citizens be better off if 11 million illegals are deported ?
who will gain ?
who will loose ?

it reminds me of a simple advice to all investors : investigate before you invest - in simple words : find out what the end-result is going to be .
act on the facts not hunches .
hbg
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 03:40 pm
As I have heard before.... there is only one poll that matters.
0 Replies
 
LittleBitty
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 06:19 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
LB, The first paragraphs from your link:
Enforcement First Favored on Immigration
Survey of 1,000 Adults

March 30-31, 2006

Possible to Reduce Illegal Immigration

Yes 68%
No 20%
RasmussenReports.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Before debating new laws, first control borders/enforce existing laws

Agree 66%
Disagree 21%
RasmussenReports.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forcibly Require All 11 Million Illegal Aliens to Leave US

Yes 40%
No 44%
RasmussenReports.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
April 1, 2006--On the divisive topic of immigration reform, the latest Rasmussen Reports national opinion survey found at least some common ground among the general public.

Two-thirds (68%) of Americans believe it is possible to reduce illegal immigration while just 20% disagree. The belief that the issue could be addressed adds to the intensity of the debate.

A similar number (66%) believe it doesn't make sense to debate new immigration laws until we can first control our borders and enforce existing laws. Just 21% disagree with that approach.

However, those who are seeking a compromise on the issue may be underestimating the public desire to reduce the number of illegal aliens already living in the country as well as stopping the flow of future illegal immigration.

In our survey, we informed respondents that there are 11 million illegal aliens living in the United States and that more than half have lived here for more than five years. Upon hearing those facts, 40% favored forcibly requiring all 11 million to leave the United States. Just 44% are opposed to a forcible removal of illegal aliens.

This does not mean that 40% would support whatever actions are required to remove the current population of illegal aliens. However, it clearly indicates that there is no broad support for a policy that begins with an assumption that those who already live here should be allowed to stay.


Can you please clarify what you find to be in support of your position? I want to assure everyone that I did read the links. I am arguing the point of citizenship status, and my position of what Americans want in that regard.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 06:26 pm
Quite simply, the polls and what I think about illegal immigration does not need "support."

My position on illegal immigration is quite clear - if you have bothered to read my posts on this subject. I would address any questions related to my opinion identifed by each post, but will not do a wholesale response to your kind of query. I will not repeat it. I never claimed that polls agreed with my position.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 06:37 pm
Quote:
Still, nearly two-thirds also say the government should allow illegal immigrants to remain and become U.S. citizens if they meet certain requirements over time.


I am arguing for a compromise position that contains the right to become U.S. citizens by meeting certain criteria combined with stricter border security.

For me, the most important thing is compassion for people who have been here for a while and have families and are part of communities.

I think you can combine this with a reasonable immigration policy that can be enforced. The current one invites people in while making life as difficult as possible once they get here.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 06:45 pm
ebrown, My position mirrors yours; I just can't agree with our government refusing to enforce the laws already made by congress, not secure our borders, and I do not approve of letting illegal immigrants jump ahead of those trying to become citizens legally. I believe in a longer waiting period, pay necessary fines and penalties, and all future illegal immigrants be shipped back. Those hiring "new" illegal immigrants should be fined heavily. I doubt our government is up to the task.
0 Replies
 
LittleBitty
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 06:56 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Quite simply, the polls and what I think about illegal immigration does not need "support."

My position on illegal immigration is quite clear - if you have bothered to read my posts on this subject. I would address any questions related to my opinion identifed by each post, but will not do a wholesale response to your kind of query. I will not repeat it. I never claimed that polls agreed with my position.


I have read with great interest all of your comments right after you put them on this message board. Am I under some sort of obligation to let you know? I'm quite clear on your views on healthcare. The rest, not so much, so I asked, and you start with the "if you had bothered" nonsense. To me, that reflects this translation - I refuse to clarify. Fine by me.

I simply wanted to know if you were drawing any sort of comparison between your position and the polls, but please note, that's past tense.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 06:59 pm
I really don't give a rat's ass about how the polls turn out. I only post my personal opinion whether it agrees with polls or not; which happens to be the least of my worries. And your comments about my respones? The same. Get over it; I never claimed any polls agreed with any of my positiions; I just don't give a shet.
0 Replies
 
LittleBitty
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 07:13 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Quote:
Still, nearly two-thirds also say the government should allow illegal immigrants to remain and become U.S. citizens if they meet certain requirements over time.


I am arguing for a compromise position that contains the right to become U.S. citizens by meeting certain criteria combined with stricter border security.

For me, the most important thing is compassion for people who have been here for a while and have families and are part of communities.

I think you can combine this with a reasonable immigration policy that can be enforced. The current one invites people in while making life as difficult as possible once they get here.


What about existing programs that are tried and true? The program for seasonal crab pickers back east comes to mind as an example. The workers cross the border legally and return to their homes at the end of the season. One drawback is that this doesn't offer any healthcare.

I am unsure how one would combat the situation of overstaying a VISA.
0 Replies
 
LittleBitty
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 07:20 pm
hamburger wrote:
i wonder if any studies have ever been conducted trying to measure the economic impact that would result from removing 11 million people from the united states .
one might assume that unemployment would be further reduced and that both earnings (for most families but not all) and prices of many goods and services would increase .
the citizens of the united states should be presented with what the outcomes would be before being asked if the 11 million illegal immigrants should be deported .
most of the times such seemingly 'straight-forward' questions are asked , the outcomes are usually not communicated beforehand .

i'm reminded that a few years ago a conservative governmant was elected in the province of ontario on the promise of a "common sense revolution " and reduction in the provincial income tax .
being somewhat of a numbers-man , i tried to figure out how the government would be able to fulfill its financial obligations in addition to giving a tax cut .
the solution was really quite simple :
the provincial taxes were reduced and the municipal government s were saaddled with much larger expenses .
NET RESULT : in the end we paid more taxes in total , but the provincial government was able to proclaim : WE REDUCED THE TAXES !

so i'm wondering : will the united states citizens be better off if 11 million illegals are deported ?
who will gain ?
who will loose ?

it reminds me of a simple advice to all investors : investigate before you invest - in simple words : find out what the end-result is going to be .
act on the facts not hunches .
hbg


I've heard some discussion on this and it seems practically impossible to find a way to economically deport 11 million people. That's would be a lot of buses, boat rides, and airfares.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 08:19 pm
i don't think the major cost will be the cost of deporting the illegals .

i don't think it would be too difficult (as an example) to calculate how much the cost of agricultural products would rise if there are no illegals . how much would u.s. citizens have to be paid to harvest lettuce ?

i think that many more workers would join unions if the unemployment rate drops considerably , which would likely be the result if a few million people are removed from the workforce . this in turn might increase waages , but the questioon is : how much would wages increase ?
a good study for economists to undertake .
hbg
0 Replies
 
LoneStarMadam
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 08:28 pm
Deporting them would be less expensive that keeping them, IMO. 24, 000,000 today, that number will only rise.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 09:07 pm
i wonder how much madam will be willing to pay for her lettuce ?
hbg
0 Replies
 
LittleBitty
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 09:14 pm
hamburger wrote:
i don't think the major cost will be the cost of deporting the illegals .

i don't think it would be too difficult (as an example) to calculate how much the cost of agricultural products would rise if there are no illegals . how much would u.s. citizens have to be paid to harvest lettuce ?

i think that many more workers would join unions if the unemployment rate drops considerably , which would likely be the result if a few million people are removed from the workforce . this in turn might increase waages , but the questioon is : how much would wages increase ?
a good study for economists to undertake .
hbg


It's my understanding that the price wouldn't necessarily need to increase since big businesses pocket the difference in money they save in labor. I'm willing to be proven wrong on this point.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 10:13 pm
That's the reason why we import fruits and vegetables from other countries. It's called "oompetition."
0 Replies
 
LittleBitty
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 10:54 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
That's the reason why we import fruits and vegetables from other countries. It's called "oompetition."


I choose to buy those grown in the United States. With increased interest in organic fruits and vegetables, it is my hope that the United States regain their footing and continue to focus their efforts in this area.

I think it may take a while for other countries to meet our organic certification standards.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 11:01 pm
The US government collects $7 000 000 000 a year in taxes from illegal immigrants. Something to think about?
0 Replies
 
LittleBitty
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 11:10 pm
Wilso wrote:
The US government collects $7 000 000 000 a year in taxes from illegal immigrants. Something to think about?


That's a good point and another infuriating piece of the puzzle. This still leaves an outstanding balance for those that either don't pay taxes or simply don't work for a variety of reasons.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 11:27 pm
If an illegal immigrant has a child in the US is the child an illegal also? How many children are born to illegals each year? Are they all a drain on the US, or do they one day contribute to it's wealth?
0 Replies
 
LittleBitty
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 11:38 pm
Wilso wrote:
If an illegal immigrant has a child in the US is the child an illegal also? How many children are born to illegals each year? Are they all a drain on the US, or do they one day contribute to it's wealth?


No, the child is a U.S. citizen, an anchor baby. With their citizenship comes the problem of their parents and family being illegal. More data is required to track their progress.

A net search may provide details on number of babies born to illegals each year.
0 Replies
 
 

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