1
   

Illegal Immigrants not a burden to health care?

 
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 07:04 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
For those who are really concerned about how illegal immigrants impacts our health care system, you need to study the impact the Walmarts, many small businesses, and fast food restaurants impacts our health care system.


I believe what cicerone is getting at here is that huge corporations like Wal-Mart pay their workers $5.15 an hour with no health care benefits, and when those workers get sick the state has to subsidize their health care. Meanwhile, Wal-Mart becomes one of the world's largest corporations and rakes in immense profits-while the taxpayers pay for their employees' health care that Wal-Mart neglects to provide.

Same for McDonald's, etc. etc.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 08:17 am
Quote:

How does an illegal alien become insured, by the way?


Same way that you do. I know undocumented immigrants who get insurance through their employer. I also know immigrants who are married to citizen spouses and get coverage this way.

What you are failing to see is that the ER crisis is a big problem. Illegal immigration is a very small part of the problem. You are unfairly using illegal immigrants as a scape goat even when if we magically made illegal immigrants disappear we would still have the same problem.

Let's talk about real solutions to the crisis in health care (and remember getting rid of illegal immigrants is not a very good solution since they are a very small part of the problem).

1. We need to make an investment in public health, emergency room service and the number of beds available. If there are specific hospitals or areas that have an unusually high number of uninsured patients for whatever reason (whether immigration or poverty or whatever) we obviously need to find a way to fund this.

2. We need to find a way to give more preventative care and less emergency care. This is an obvious way to cut costs since the earlier you treat a problem the less expensive it is.

The most obvious area in this is pre-natal care. Failing to give pregnant women and young infants medical care is not only uncompassionate-- it is economically stupid.

3. We need to fix the health care system in general. The costs of health care keep rising, the costs of insurance keep rising and the number of Americans who can't afford health care keeps rising. This is a big problem that is politically very difficult to solve-- but we need to solve it.


Attacking immigrants is not the solution. First, we are a civilized and compassionate society (whether you like it or not) and Americans in general are not going to stomach turning very sick people, or pregnant mothers away from medical care they need.

I think stopping ambulances from crossing the border may be reasonable. If this is really happening (more than once) than there should be an arrangement made with local Mexican hospitals. I suspect this is little more than conservative propagands... but if it is true it shouldn't be too hard to stop.

But there are many immigrants who are living here. They have been working and raising families in this country for years and are part of our economy and are communities. These are not people who are crossing the border for a day for medical care. They are long-term residents who, like everyone need medical care.

Of course we need a general resolution for the status of these people (who are now living in limbo). I will post my solution later if I have interest... but now, while they are living here as part of our society they are going to need medical care.

As we, and all the facts, have been saying this is a very small part of the health care pie... but of course as many of them that can get preventative care or can insure themselves, the better.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 11:13 am
I don't understand some people's emphasis on "illegal immigration." We're spending billions of dollars in Iraq that includes building hospitals with US tax dollars, and yet people only want to blame illegal immigration on US problems. Makes one wonder where they're coming from?
0 Replies
 
LittleBitty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 01:34 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Quote:

How does an illegal alien become insured, by the way?


Same way that you do. I know undocumented immigrants who get insurance through their employer. I also know immigrants who are married to citizen spouses and get coverage this way.



I work for and receive benefits, but I have to have proper documentation. We don't employ illegal aliens. I suppose that makes our company lack any compassion. We call it obeying the law. There are fines to pay if we break the law and we take this matter seriously.

Would you prefer that we fire those that have proper documentation and hire only illegal aliens to meet some sort of compassion requirement?

Are you willing to disregard the needs of those who came here by legal means and are trying to carve out a path for themselves?

Your conservative propaganda slam falls on deaf ears with me. I am a registered Democrat, try again.

I am not "failing to see" anything. You don't know me well enough to make such a declaration. I live in a state that will be broke in no time, and I don't fault illegal aliens alone for our healthcare system, but I refuse to dismiss them as "they are not part of the solution", Timothy.

Attack immigrants? 'Immigrants' is all inclusive word that could refer to any terrorist crossing into the United States as well as a properly documented worker, or someone crossing illegally looking for a better life. I refuse to group everyone into one category.

This seemed like a great message board. I wasn't expecting to be attacked on my first topic, but hey, thanks for treating me so well. What a disappointment.

I appreciate everyone else that has taken the time to comment both pro and con on this topic.
0 Replies
 
LittleBitty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 01:41 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
I don't understand some people's emphasis on "illegal immigration." We're spending billions of dollars in Iraq that includes building hospitals with US tax dollars, and yet people only want to blame illegal immigration on US problems. Makes one wonder where they're coming from?


I'll comment on Iraq as well; I'm not thrilled with that situation, but I'm a little underwhelmed with the reception I've received here which has me thinking twice about sharing any thoughts.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 01:54 pm
LB, Most of us have been trying to provide information that is accurate about the US health system - without the imposition of one's political stance on illegal immigration. You either didn't bother to read it, or you are so fixed in your ideas that nothing will penetrate.

A2K is a place where one can learn much or remain pig-headed and not learn anything. It also provides entertainment which is shared from people all around this world.

The ball remains on your side of the court.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 02:04 pm
IttyBitty,

I don't see that anyone has attacked you personally. I have attacked your ideas as you prsented them.

You are posting on a controversial topic in a forum which is labled "Politics". You shouldn't be surprised if people take exception with the views you present. That's all part of politics. In fact, that is the reason I am here... to put my ideas out and see which ones will withstand hearty criticism. Sometimes my ideas haven't and a couple of times the debate here has changed my mind on topics.

I appreciate that you are willing to express your views and I offer you a sincere welcome to A2K. I hope you learn to enjoy the Politics forum, but if not there are many other places in A2K that aren't so political.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 02:08 pm
Maybe I'm somewhat desensitize, LittleBitty, but I think you are confusing disagreement with insult and/or personal attack. I frequently disagree with the same people you do; I cannot recall a single personal attack or insult from any long time member you might be referring to. I italicize "personal" as my major grouping, anglo, male, republicans is often insulted. I do not take it personally, thought I sometimes respond.

Question: How do you know you do not hire illegal workers. My company does not hire undocumented workers. The documents look real, and if you're an employer, you should be aware that that's as far as you either may, or must go. This has been an irritation for years, but there it is.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 02:11 pm
LittleBitty, I also extend my WELCOME to you. You'll find the Politics and Religion Forums to be "heated" places on the exchange of ideas. There are plenty of other Forums that can provide education and entertainment if you think it's too heated for your participation. I enjoy the Travel Forum, and suggest you make some visits there for "lighter" fare.
0 Replies
 
LittleBitty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 02:41 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
IttyBitty,

I don't see that anyone has attacked you personally. I have attacked your ideas as you prsented them.

You are posting on a controversial topic in a forum which is labled "Politics". You shouldn't be surprised if people take exception with the views you present. That's all part of politics. In fact, that is the reason I am here... to put my ideas out and see which ones will withstand hearty criticism. Sometimes my ideas haven't and a couple of times the debate here has changed my mind on topics.

I appreciate that you are willing to express your views and I offer you a sincere welcome to A2K. I hope you learn to enjoy the Politics forum, but if not there are many other places in A2K that aren't so political.


Quote:
The Anti-Immigrant yahoos in this country aren't very smart.


Your comment quoted directly above appears to this newcomer as completely unnecessary and while I see it is couched in general terms, I can assure you that I've never heard of this sort of thing used in debate. In fact, it defeats the whole purpose of debate. Therein lies my frustration with your replies.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 02:45 pm
roger wrote:
my major grouping, anglo, male, republicans is often insulted.


I changed my attitude since you slept on the sofa and allowed me keeping the bed(room)!
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 02:48 pm
LittleBitty wrote:


Quote:
The Anti-Immigrant yahoos in this country aren't very smart.


Your comment quoted directly above appears to this newcomer as completely unnecessary and while I see it is couched in general terms, I can assure you that I've never heard of this sort of thing used in debate. In fact, it defeats the whole purpose of debate. Therein lies my frustration with your replies.


You are right. I am sorry for this comment and I retract it.
0 Replies
 
LittleBitty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 03:01 pm
roger wrote:
Maybe I'm somewhat desensitize, LittleBitty, but I think you are confusing disagreement with insult and/or personal attack. I frequently disagree with the same people you do; I cannot recall a single personal attack or insult from any long time member you might be referring to. I italicize "personal" as my major grouping, anglo, male, republicans is often insulted. I do not take it personally, thought I sometimes respond.

Question: How do you know you do not hire illegal workers. My company does not hire undocumented workers. The documents look real, and if you're an employer, you should be aware that that's as far as you either may, or must go. This has been an irritation for years, but there it is.


Allow me to clarify, I find many comments to be less than debatable if you will, and I had been told that this was a great place to go and exchange ideas on politics.

For instance, I read all of the information shared, which is my reason for thanking everyone for sharing as that comes with the territory. I could, however do without the comments that suggest that I don't read what's presented here, especially when I have thanked most for their participation.

To answer your question as to how I know that we do not hire illegal workers, this is is something in which we take great pride. We hire only temps and those temps can become permanent in their postions. The temp agency's computer system is tied into the SS office in some manner. When they enter a SS number that isn't valid, they have a window that pops up telling them to call the SS office.

I've seen and touched SS cards that were obviously made on very light-weight copy paper in the past. Other documents, and drug testing are performed and examined prior to any temp hire. Additionally, any stolen or duplicate numbers are also caught in some manner.

We have production lines that take up three huge buildings and we'd rather raise prices and protect our existing workers than to explore any other avenues that might be available to us. There is also an employee referral program that has worked well for us, and the employee benefits from each referral.
0 Replies
 
LittleBitty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 03:09 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
LittleBitty wrote:


Quote:
The Anti-Immigrant yahoos in this country aren't very smart.


Your comment quoted directly above appears to this newcomer as completely unnecessary and while I see it is couched in general terms, I can assure you that I've never heard of this sort of thing used in debate. In fact, it defeats the whole purpose of debate. Therein lies my frustration with your replies.


You are right. I am sorry for this comment and I retract it.


Thank you, that means a lot to someone that was shy about putting a topic up here. I was originally impressed with the intelligence of the posters here, and I'd like that to be my most lasting impression.

I can respect differing points of view, and hope we can continue our discussion.
0 Replies
 
LittleBitty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 03:18 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
LittleBitty, I also extend my WELCOME to you. You'll find the Politics and Religion Forums to be "heated" places on the exchange of ideas. There are plenty of other Forums that can provide education and entertainment if you think it's too heated for your participation. I enjoy the Travel Forum, and suggest you make some visits there for "lighter" fare.


Lighter fare is a nice diversion, but I need the heavyweight stuff to forget about work.

I am used to heated discussions, although it may not seem so at this time. Don't let the newbie status and avatar fool you.

My thanks to everyone for the explanations, suggestions and warm welcome.

Moving right along, I do have a few articles to support my views on this subject. I am not saying that our healthcare is one matter only and it's all about one's legal/illegal status, but it does play into the equation. This Rand study, has me asking some questions.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 03:31 pm
I personally have enough confidence in the Rand Corporation studies to welcome anything from them you post.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 07:10 pm
Walter, you staked out the guest room before I was inside the city limits.
0 Replies
 
LittleBitty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 07:26 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
I personally have enough confidence in the Rand Corporation studies to welcome anything from them you post.


Fair enough. What sources are off limits or considered biased here? I just want to play by the rules.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 07:34 pm
LittleBitty wrote:
To answer your question as to how I know that we do not hire illegal workers, this is is something in which we take great pride. We hire only temps and those temps can become permanent in their postions. The temp agency's computer system is tied into the SS office in some manner. When they enter a SS number that isn't valid, they have a window that pops up telling them to call the SS office.

I am familiar with the process. The first thing you should be aware of is that it is illegal to verify SSNs prior to hiring. I have what you might call "serious issues" with this, but that's the way it is. Furthermore, you can't take adverse action based on information from SSA regarding either a nonexistant number, or a number that fails to match the name. If this sounds stupid to you, well, it does to me too.

I've seen and touched SS cards that were obviously made on very light-weight copy paper in the past. Other documents, and drug testing are performed and examined prior to any temp hire. Additionally, any stolen or duplicate numbers are also caught in some manner.

What other documents? If you are presented with an I-9 document that meets the standards (resident alien card for example) of Column A, that's all you are entitled to. If you receive a Column A document, you are simply not allowed to demand more. In this case, as an employer, you are simply not permitted to demand a Social Security Card. Period. As an employer, you should be aware of this. The system sucks, but what can I say? Now, if you do not receive such a document, then you must, and I say must, demand a document for both Column B and Column C on the I-9. The SS Card is acceptable for column B.

We have production lines that take up three huge buildings and we'd rather raise prices and protect our existing workers than to explore any other avenues that might be available to us. There is also an employee referral program that has worked well for us, and the employee benefits from each referral.

Good. So long as your company demographics are more or less similar to that of similar companies, you are probably not open to charges of illegal discrimination in hiring


Truely, it sounds as though Immigration and Naturalization has conspired with the Social Security Administration to put the employer in the position of "Damned if you do; damned if you don't.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 07:38 pm
LittleBitty wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
I personally have enough confidence in the Rand Corporation studies to welcome anything from them you post.


Fair enough. What sources are off limits or considered biased here? I just want to play by the rules.

there are no rules, everything is open to challenge.
0 Replies
 
 

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