Illegal Immigrants not a burden to health care?

roger wrote:

And you know the 14th was passed to protect former slaves.

Yes, but that is a deceptive statement, although i do not suggest that you intended to deceive.

Article IV, Section 2, first paragraph of the Constitution reads:

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

The first section of the XIVth Amendment, which is about all anyone ever bothers to learn about the Amendment, reads:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The Amendment is entitled "Citizenship Rights," and constitutes and extension and a clarification of Article IV, Section 2, first paragraph. Article IV is entitle "States," and Section 2 is entitled "State Citizens, Extradition." The remainder of the XIVth Amendment actually concerns itself with the debilities which attached to men who had participated in the rebellion, which is how the Civil War was officially described, and the provision to remove those debilities by Congress. The Amendment only inferentially deals with the rights of former slaves, as it affirms that either all men who are not Indians who are 21 years of age, and who have never participated in rebellion against the United States, shall not be denied the right to vote, or the representation of any state which limits the franchise of men 21 years of age who are not Indians and who have not participated in rebellion will be reduced in exact proportion as the vote were denied. So, if a state in which half the male population over 21 were former slaves, and they were denied the vote, the Congressional delegation of that state would be reduced to half. It also provides for the good faith acknowldgement of any debts incurred by the government in fighting the rebellion. This is probably the most misunderstood amendment to the Constitution.

I find this site with the text to the Constitution to be the most useful i've found online.

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LoneStarMadam wrote:

cjhsa wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
Quote:

I hope Congress never passes that amendment because who knows, maybe the US might get mad at me (or Mysteryman) one day & strip me of my citizenship. Another slippery slope being looked at.

I've got my list ...

Me too... anti-American A2K'ers such as yourself are high on it...

WHAT??? anti-Americans such as yourself are high on it? What the hell does that mean? You want a bunch of grifters in Congress to have the ability to strip American born citizens their right of citizenship?
That is pure ignorance on your part.

I'm starting to think we have another possum.

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cjhsa wrote:

LoneStarMadam wrote:
cjhsa wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
Quote:

I hope Congress never passes that amendment because who knows, maybe the US might get mad at me (or Mysteryman) one day & strip me of my citizenship. Another slippery slope being looked at.

I've got my list ...

Me too... anti-American A2K'ers such as yourself are high on it...

WHAT??? anti-Americans such as yourself are high on it? What the hell does that mean? You want a bunch of grifters in Congress to have the ability to strip American born citizens their right of citizenship?
That is pure ignorance on your part.

I'm starting to think we have another possum.

No, that's not the case. Check out the very long drawn out thread "Shutting up is not cowardice". There's information there if you really want to read through the last few pages.

It's getting to the point that I recognize all of these past posters' names they're mentioned so often. Maybe these bad boys are the ones responsible for the problems with our healthcare.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Mame, the problem with that is then you end up with a subculture that has lived in a country for generations that have lived their entire life in a country and contributed to its economy and society without belonging.

The US policy enshrined in the 14th amendment (as upheld by 100 years of precedent (and a couple of supreme court cases) has served us well. Each wave of immigrants has assimalated after a generation even though a number of immigrants from each group came here illegally.

Imagine if every person of Itailian, Greek, Polish, Chinese or Jewish descent whose ancestors had arrived in the past 100 years had to worry if they couldn't find documents for their grandparents.

The US policy had led to diversity and assimilation of generation after generation. Now there are doubtless Americans who don't even know their grandparents didn't have permission to come... but no one cares because we are all Americans equally.

This is one of the things that make America great.

Good post, although I disagree. I don't see assimilation happening in one generation. We're too accommodating as a country on this matter.

To compare the Poles, Greeks etc. to our current situation at the southern border, you'd have to consider that in the examples you mention, there was not a shift in so many jobs to require a U.S. citizen to be bilingual. Another difference is they didn't have, for example, Greek radio and Greek TV. I view those things as a crutch and believe we've gone too far in the wrong direction in making it easy to maintain a language barrier.

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LittleBitty wrote:

Another difference is they didn't have, for example, Greek radio and Greek TV. I view those things as a crutch and believe we've gone too far in the wrong direction in making it easy to maintain a language barrier.

I suppose, you include newspapers in that - something that has always been a historic, common source for staying in contact with one's sources.

Benjamin Franclin, btw, published the first German newspaper in the USA, in 1732.
Prior to WWI there were some hundred different German newspapers published (over 800 daily newspapers).

It sems, you apostolate here another problem (well, as I see it), namely that Americans don't like to learn any other language than American English.

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You are wrong.

People complaining that immigrants use their own language is nothing new. The only difference is that before cable television, there was no room for the diversity of channels you now see, but there have been radio stations and programs in many different languages since the beginning of radio.

You will notice that many cities have a Chinatown (where Chinese is still spoken) and an Italian area (in Boston it is called the North End) where Italian is still spoken. Many Greek families still go to church in Greek and have Greek schools. Many people of Jewish heritage send their kids to Hebrew schools.You can also find Polish Polkas and Greek festivals.

I am also in favor of all immigrants learning English. I am simply pointing out that this has never been a problem-- immigrants by the second generation are completely fluent even in the most cohesive of immigrant groups. This has proven true up until now-- the immigrants who received the 1986 amnesty are a stunning example of this.

The key to assimilation is to make sure that all immigrants have access to educational opportunities.

You claim that immigrants either want, or are using a crutch is completely wrong. All of the immigrants, legal and illegal, that I know are very motivated to learn English and most are very good. There is a bit of frustration that there aren't enough English classes in Boston, and all of the are quite full.

I am very familiar with the immigrant community here. I have only met two people who didn't learn English.

One was a sweet old Chinese lady (the mother of one of my friends), a legal immigrant whose husband owns several restaurants in the area. She was wealthy, didn't work, had a community of friends and felt no need.... but this legal immigrant certainly poses no threat to our society.

The other was a Cuban woman who I didn't care very much for. She was extremely opinionated, extremely conservative and her only reason for living (as near as I could tell) was to stew in a profound hatred of Castro. She also lived off of her husband.

Everyone else here wants to be a part of American society. They also know that English, and a knowledge of how society works, are keys to becoming successful here.

I really don't think this is a problem.

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We should compassionately escort all illegals back to the border and gently kick them in the a$s. Then, with complete cordiality, we should urge the Mexican government to stop dumping their unemployed and unwanted on us. Then we should throw any American business owner who hires illegals into a nice, comfortable jail cell. That is, if this isn't too insensitive for anybody.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

LittleBitty wrote:
Another difference is they didn't have, for example, Greek radio and Greek TV. I view those things as a crutch and believe we've gone too far in the wrong direction in making it easy to maintain a language barrier.

I suppose, you include newspapers in that - something that has always been a historic, common source for staying in contact with one's sources.

Benjamin Franclin, btw, published the first German newspaper in the USA, in 1732.
Prior to WWI there were some hundred different German newspapers published (over 800 daily newspapers).

It sems, you apostolate here another problem (well, as I see it), namely that Americans don't like to learn any other language than American English.

I'm aware of newspapers, ( I read La'Opinion on occassion) and understand that even German/English schools existed, therefore no mention of either. I feel we do a disservice to those wanting to assimilate. As an offering to improve this situation, and I believe a step in the right direction, we offer English classes to those interested after work, and the classes are packed. There are safety issues that could put our production workers at risk. I requested Spanish classes, so your argument of this English only applying to me and my ideas would be incorrect.

Many of us also know sign language. I have French under my belt as well to use for translation purposes for the French- Canadian market. Unfortunately, I learned Parisian French, so I've made some mistakes.

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ebrown_p wrote:

You are wrong.

People complaining that immigrants use their own language is nothing new. The only difference is that before cable television, there was no room for the diversity of channels you now see, but there have been radio stations and programs in many different languages since the beginning of radio.

You will notice that many cities have a Chinatown (where Chinese is still spoken) and an Italian area (in Boston it is called the North End) where Italian is still spoken. Many Greek families still go to church in Greek and have Greek schools. Many people of Jewish heritage send their kids to Hebrew schools.You can also find Polish Polkas and Greek festivals.

I am also in favor of all immigrants learning English. I am simply pointing out that this has never been a problem-- immigrants by the second generation are completely fluent even in the most cohesive of immigrant groups. This has proven true up until now-- the immigrants who received the 1986 amnesty are a stunning example of this.

The key to assimilation is to make sure that all immigrants have access to educational opportunities.

You claim that immigrants either want, or are using a crutch is completely wrong. All of the immigrants, legal and illegal, that I know are very motivated to learn English and most are very good. There is a bit of frustration that there aren't enough English classes in Boston, and all of the are quite full.

I am very familiar with the immigrant community here. I have only met two people who didn't learn English.

One was a sweet old Chinese lady (the mother of one of my friends), a legal immigrant whose husband owns several restaurants in the area. She was wealthy, didn't work, had a community of friends and felt no need.... but this legal immigrant certainly poses no threat to our society.

The other was a Cuban woman who I didn't care very much for. She was extremely opinionated, extremely conservative and her only reason for living (as near as I could tell) was to stew in a profound hatred of Castro. She also lived off of her husband.

Everyone else here wants to be a part of American society. They also know that English, and a knowledge of how society works, are keys to becoming successful here.

I really don't think this is a problem.

My experience is quite different. I don't see assimilation occurring as often nor the eagerness that you describe with the exception of those situations I have mentioned in my previous post.

It's been my experience that we cater too much to other languages and don't require English. This can make the simplist of transactions into nightmares. My example would be a traffic accident, something I've personally experienced several times.

I have a friend from Nicaragua whose green card expired and she was all set and packed to go back to Nicaragua when the war there broke out so she was suddenly given political asylum. She explained to me that in order for her to learn English, she had to resist the temptation of TV, radio, things of that nature. She got a minimum wage job and couldn't speak any English. It wasn't until she forced herself to learn English that she was able to improve her job status.

Her two favorite stories to tell me is that as a server in a restaurant, she couldn't figure out what toothpicks were when asked, and she called everyone 'mom' instead of 'Mam'. She's often disgusted with the lack of initiative taken to assimilate. I don't base my conclusions on personal experiences alone.

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I mean someone living in the States for about ten years with a green card and not knowing enough English ... Shocked

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

I mean someone living in the States for about ten years with a green card and not knowing enough English ...

My example fits within those parameters.

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Okay :wink:

As an aside: I'd thought, the resident status would not expire or change even when the green card expires after ten years. Why then asylum?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Okay :wink:

As an aside: I'd thought, the resident status would not expire or change even when the green card expires after ten years. Why then asylum?

My friend had a special immigrant Green Card as she worked in medical research. I don't know the particulars, but she was reminded when the research was concluded or she was no longer needed (not sure of the situation exactly) that it was time for her to leave the U.S.

According to my friend, she herself hadn't made any attempts to learn English until that time. She spent her days in a lab without a real need to communicate with her peers.

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Thanks.

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What exactly do you mean when you say she was in the country for "medical research"?

When I first read this, I thought you meant she was a PhD in biology. In this case I would find her lack of knowledge of English quite impossible. I belive that most people doing advanced research have a working knowledge of English.

On second reading it seems like she was brought in as a ginuea pig... in which case I would assume English is unnecessary.

But this would make me feel sad.

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ebrown_p wrote:

What exactly do you mean when you say she was in the country for "medical research"?

When I first read this, I thought you meant she was a PhD in biology. In this case I would find her lack of knowledge of English quite impossible. I belive that most people doing advanced research have a working knowledge of English.

On second reading it seems like she was brought in as a ginuea pig... in which case I would assume English is unnecessary.

But this would make me feel sad.

I'm vague on the details, but no, she is not a PhD nor was she a ginuea pig. She was connected directly to some particular program and worked in the lab doing something akin to counting fruit flies and recording the information for others. I know her brother is in the United States and he is a doctor, so maybe there was a connection with her brother. I'm just speculating at this point, but I can assure you she was not a ginuea pig.

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LoneStarMadam wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:
LoneStarMadam wrote:
Lots of illegal drugs too, & I think they're organic. It's time to stop the invasion.

.....I wish the government would get the heck out my private life, whether that be with organic food, or what drugs it thinks I should take,

Are you talking about illegal drugs as being your private life?
Whethere illegal drugs should be your right or not isn't the question, the point is, those drugs are illegal, as is the invasion!!

yeah, really eb..... buy american - smoke humboldt, bro. Laughing

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Today's Chicago Tribune has several articles and reports about (legal) Mexicans working in the Chicago area:

Frontpage:

pages 10 & 11

Online:
Two sides of the American dream

Blending cultures, flavors
A FOOT IN THE KITCHEN DOOR

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We employ legal immigrants and encourage assimilation and opportunity. It is unfortunate that there are companies that take a shortcut around these workers and choose to work with illegal entrants to avoid paying higher wages and benefits.

When the argument of legal immigrants supporting illegal immigrants comes to the forefront, I can think of two examples that would make that situation beneficial to those here legally:

1) Legal immigrant was granted amnesty
2) Money is being sent home from legal immigrant to help more family members cross the border by any means

There are more examples, but these are the most logical to me. Both Reagan and Clinton granted amnesty to illegal aliens that were living in this country.

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Illegal Immigrants not a burden to health care?

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