NORTH KOREA CONDUCTS NUCLEAR TEST

Please give a big ovation to former Pres Clinton and Carter for successfully detonating a nuke in N. Korea.

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/cliBntMon.htm

I am not really surprised at the world reaction to North Korean nuclear tests. However I do think the reaction is a little two faced.
Kind of like.... we're allowed to have nukes but your not

French nuclear testing ceased as late as 1992. France at that time had conducted up to 192 nueclear tests over 28 years inluding atmospheric tests with monitored leaks.

France ignored Pacific protests and conducted illegal activities such as sinking the Rainbow Warrior to achieve their goals.

The US centic media would have us believe that Kim il sung and his son Kim jong il are maniacle dictatorish despots whereas my own sources paint a completely different picture.

The Image of a small child playing with matches does come to mind but I personally am not too concerned at present.

If, over the coming years, more and more countries acquire nuclear weapons, then at some point, the risk of their use will be pretty great. It isn't feasible right now to have 100% disarmament of everybody, but, at least we can try to keep them out of the hands of the worst of the worst regimes.

So are you saying Kim Jong-Il is the greater danger?

And if that's what you are saying, can you please explain why you have reached that conclusion?

Might well be that my English is really bad, but neither did I intend to say nor try to write such.

Actually, I really think that someone with a buclear bomb is a greater danger than someone who might have one.

But I agree that your different opinion is to respect as well.

Dadpad, I would be interested in seeing your sources; online or otherwise. I've certainly bought into the manic, dictator, despot vision, and don't recall anything with an opposing view.

Okay, so you did not intend to say most of the world was mistaken about Iraq and Iran being greater dangers than NK.



Why?

And doesn't that mean you believe NK is the greater danger after all?



What different opinion?

It might be a nice intellectual morning excercise for you, tico, but I'm not willing to contest with you.

I just found out that what I wrote was written nearly identically in The Mail, very similar in the Times, in the same meaning (as far as I understand it and the editors of two press reviews) in th Telgraph.

So I post it again, since it's obviously English:

The world had long been concerned about the intentions of paranoid dictator Kim Jong-Il but had mistakenly reckoned Iraq and Iran to be the greater danger.
This wasn't mentioned in the above papers that way: Well, most of the world ... leaders.

I'd thaught, you have one. If 'no': fine.
If 'yes': hold your dominion.

Based upon what "intentions" should the word be concerned about N.K?

Other than the possibility they MIGHT sell there so far failed nuclear technology given to them by Fmr Pres. Carter and Clinton, to "others", what threat are they to the interest of the US?

After having seen those photos (from tomorrow's [11.09.2006] The Australian), I stand corrected and retract my above responses.

US grants N Korea nuclear funds

Pyongyang threatened to pull out of the nuclear deal

The US Government has announced that it will release $95m to North Korea as part of an agreement to replace the Stalinist country's own nuclear programme, which the US suspected was being misused.
Under the 1994 Agreed Framework an international consortium is building two proliferation-proof nuclear reactors and providing fuel oil for North Korea while the reactors are being built.

In releasing the funding, President George W Bush waived the Framework's requirement that North Korea allow inspectors to ensure it has not hidden away any weapons-grade plutonium from the original reactors.

President Bush argued that the decision was "vital to the national security interests of the United States".

Deal under threat

North Korea has repeatedly threatened to withdraw from the agreement in recent weeks.


The row has heightened tensions on the peninsula


It has been angered by President Bush's accusation that Pyongyang was part of an "axis of evil" producing weapons of mass destruction.

This annoyance was compounded by Washington's decision to withhold this year's certification that North Korea is keeping its side of the Agreed Framework.

It has systematically refused to allow International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) inspectors into its nuclear facility at the Yongbyon research base north of the capital.

Delayed

Pyongyang has justified its refusals by pointing out that the reactors are way behind schedule.

They were originally expected to have been completed next year, but now construction is not expected to even begin until August.

Another issue is the different interpretations of the inspections' timing.

According to the Framework, North Korea should be fully compliant with IAEA safeguards when "a significant proportion" of the project is completed.

The builders say that will be around May 2005, and given the inspections will take at least three years, this means that North Korea should start admitting inspectors now.

But Pyongyang believes that they should only allow the inspections to start, rather than finish, by that date.

The head of the Non-proliferation Policy Education Centre in Washington, a critic of the Agreed Framework, has warned that even when the new reactors are completed they may not be tamper-proof.

"These reactors are like all reactors, They have the potential to make weapons. So you might end up supplying the worst nuclear violator with the means to acquire the very weapons we're trying to prevent it acquiring," Henry Sokolski told the Far Eastern Economic Review.

Korea
If Bush 43 wants good advice for dealing with North Korea on a wide range of issues, including nuclear testing, he must stop listening to Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, Condi Rice, et al. He would be better served by listening to his father, Bush 41, Brent Scowroft, and James Baker.

Shortly after Bush 43 was selected president, Bush 41 asked Saudi Arabian Prince Bandar, a close Bush family friend) to brief his son on North Korea. Bandar agreed to do so. Bush 43 asked Bandar why he should care about North Korea? Bandar's response: Perhaps because you have 30,000+ plus troops posted near the border in South Korea.

This is only one example of how poorly Bush 43 was prepared to be president. Scowcroft and Baker are probably the only advisers that can save Bush's butt---and ours. Is Bush smart enough to realize that?

BBB

p.s. Scowcroft and Baker would probably be better advisers to Bush on Iraq, as well.

Kim Jong-Il is a Stalinist dictator of a small, isolated country. He inherited from his father one of the most thoroughly brainwashed populations ever to exist, and has carried on the tradition. Jong-Il is truly an absolute dictator. He controls, absolutely the Party apparatus and all aspects of government. He alone determines economic policy, and the DPRK has suffered mightily for his ineptitude. Jong-Il has a fiercely loyal 1,000,000 man army, the fourth largest in the world. The Kim's invaded ROK over fifty years ago and came very close to absorbing all of ROK into their little hell. They were nearly beaten, but Macarthur's hubris got the better of him and China intervened. The Korean War never ended, and the Cease Fire has been pretty severely tested numerous times over the last 50+ years. There is a very strong North Korean 5th column operating inside ROK, even in high government positions. The North has fomented unrest and student rioting in such a regular manner that they can almost be scheduled in advance. The DPRK has stationed most of its 1st echelon troops right on the DMZ, and make frequent incursions across it. Large military tunnels extending south from above the DMZ have often been discovered and destroyed. The DPRK has been caught infiltrating special forces into ROK from small boats and miniature submarines. Kim Jong-Il has never been subtle about his intention of conquering ROK. Jong-Il's only higher priority is continuation of his regime and dynasty.

The DPRK has from the very beginning adhered to a single hard-line negotiation strategy. They are loud, insulting, and demanding. They insist on controlling the agenda, and will walk out over the slightest objection to their behavior. They use threats and blackmail to intimidate their opposition. When they get their way, they up the ante and demand more. When faced with strong resistance, especially if there is a credible threat attached, they will back down temporarily. Blocked in one direction they attack in another and the whole proceedings are repeated until the secure another "win", which leads to even greater demands. This has been going on for half a century.

When the DPRK was on teetering on the brink of total collapse due to a major famine brought on by Jong-Il's economic and agricultural policies, the DPRK put on their "make nice" face and convinced officials of the Clinton administration that they could be trusted to halt their nuclear weapons program in return for a hefty bribe designed primarily to bring the famine under control. The assistance supplied by the U.S., ROK and Japan was diverted to the military and top political officials and only a small remainder went to the starving. Jong-Il never intended to stop his nuclear weapons program, but he did lower its profile for awhile. Even though really good intelligence about what is happening on the ground and in the minds of Jong-Ils servants is almost impossible to determine, the DPRK nuclear weapons program was discovered before the U.S. delivered two light water reactors. The DPRK was caught illegally laundering billions of dollars outside the country to support its threatening posture to ROK, the region and the world. That was stopped and Jong-Il upped his threats and made his nuclear weapons and missile programs very high profile.

This isn't the way one expects a person who is seriously insane from acting. If Jong-Il, and his father for that matter, were truly crazy its unlikely that they could maintain total dominance for over half a century. The Kims aren't crazy in a psychiatric sense, but Jong-Il isn't exactly a well-balanced mentally healthy individual either. He has never heard the word "no" in respect to his wishes. He has spent his entire life being worshiped, though until Il-Sung died he was always subject to his father. He was an apt student of mind control and the value of violence and threats of violence. He took over a government already cowed, and in short order made it clear that he was never to be displeased over even trifles. The death camps in the northern part of the DPRK are every bit as brutal as those Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot maintained. Accidental trespass at one of the Jong-Il palaces, even if he's not there, has resulted in execution of the trespasser and the interment of his whole family in one of the Death camps.

Jong-Il was educated in Switzerland, and acquired a taste for the finer things in life. Part of his training under his father was as head of the propaganda ministry, and that fed his love of film. He had Japanese movie stars and sushi chef's kidnapped to star in his films and create his favorite dishes. DPRK kidnapping Japanese from Japan has not been uncommon. Jong-Il, who has quite a reputation for his sexual appetites, fell in love with a woman without permission from his father. Jong-Il's oldest son was born of that "marriage", and eventually became the heir apparent. Jong-il eventually married according to his father's wishes, and other children were born, at least one of whom was a daughter. Jong-Il and his official wife didn't get along, and he dumped her. Today we know that there are officially three sons, and at least one daughter. The probability of many other children is very high, but the other children are apparently not in line of succession. Jong-Il has his pick of sexual partners, and his smallest wishes are instantly complied with.

His personal bodyguard is the elite of his elite Special Forces, and they are fiercely loyal to him. They are trained constantly and so brutally that hardships that would crush most people are not worth mentioning. The slightest evidence that a bodyguard might be disloyal is enough to result in torture and death. Once chosen to be one of Jong-Il's bodyguards, no other family ties are permitted. It is reported that bodyguards are sometimes shaken awake in the night and told that a small group of guards have assassinated Jong-Il as part of a regime change. The dazed guard is then given a choice, join the plot or be shot in his bed. If the guard doesn't opt for instant death, he's taken out before the rest of the guards, tortured, executed and his family all taken to a death camp.

Again, the picture we have is not of a person who is clinically insane, but rather a self-absorbed narcissist who has zero tolerance for any deviation from his wishes. He is a modern day reincarnation of Caligula, or Nero. Luckily he hasn't the power of Rome behind him, for he has been more successful in retaining power than either of those historical monsters.

Kim Jong-Il as an enlightened and beneficent ruler of a power country victimized and targeted by the evil United States? What a laugh that would be if it weren't so damned dangerous.

Kim Jong-Il is a Stalinist dictator of a small, isolated country. He inherited from his father one of the most thoroughly brainwashed populations ever to exist, and has carried on the tradition. Jong-Il is truly an absolute dictator. He controls, absolutely the Party apparatus and all aspects of government. He alone determines economic policy, and the DPRK has suffered mightily for his ineptitude. Jong-Il has a fiercely loyal 1,000,000 man army, the fourth largest in the world. The Kim's invaded ROK over fifty years ago and came very close to absorbing all of ROK into their little hell. They were nearly beaten, but Macarthur's hubris got the better of him and China intervened. The Korean War never ended, and the Cease Fire has been pretty severely tested numerous times over the last 50+ years. There is a very strong North Korean 5th column operating inside ROK, even in high government positions. The North has fomented unrest and student rioting in such a regular manner that they can almost be scheduled in advance. The DPRK has stationed most of its 1st echelon troops right on the DMZ, and make frequent incursions across it. Large military tunnels extending south from above the DMZ have often been discovered and destroyed. The DPRK has been caught infiltrating special forces into ROK from small boats and miniature submarines. Kim Jong-Il has never been subtle about his intention of conquering ROK. Jong-Il's only higher priority is continuation of his regime and dynasty.

The DPRK has from the very beginning adhered to a single hard-line negotiation strategy. They are loud, insulting, and demanding. They insist on controlling the agenda, and will walk out over the slightest objection to their behavior. They use threats and blackmail to intimidate their opposition. When they get their way, they up the ante and demand more. When faced with strong resistance, especially if there is a credible threat attached, they will back down temporarily. Blocked in one direction they attack in another and the whole proceedings are repeated until the secure another "win", which leads to even greater demands. This has been going on for half a century.

When the DPRK was on teetering on the brink of total collapse due to a major famine brought on by Jong-Il's economic and agricultural policies, the DPRK put on their "make nice" face and convinced officials of the Clinton administration that they could be trusted to halt their nuclear weapons program in return for a hefty bribe designed primarily to bring the famine under control. The assistance supplied by the U.S., ROK and Japan was diverted to the military and top political officials and only a small remainder went to the starving. Jong-Il never intended to stop his nuclear weapons program, but he did lower its profile for awhile. Even though really good intelligence about what is happening on the ground and in the minds of Jong-Ils servants is almost impossible to determine, the DPRK nuclear weapons program was discovered before the U.S. delivered two light water reactors. The DPRK was caught illegally laundering billions of dollars outside the country to support its threatening posture to ROK, the region and the world. That was stopped and Jong-Il upped his threats and made his nuclear weapons and missile programs very high profile.

This isn't the way one expects a person who is seriously insane from acting. If Jong-Il, and his father for that matter, were truly crazy its unlikely that they could maintain total dominance for over half a century. The Kims aren't crazy in a psychiatric sense, but Jong-Il isn't exactly a well-balanced mentally healthy individual either. He has never heard the word "no" in respect to his wishes. He has spent his entire life being worshiped, though until Il-Sung died he was always subject to his father. He was an apt student of mind control and the value of violence and threats of violence. He took over a government already cowed, and in short order made it clear that he was never to be displeased over even trifles. The death camps in the northern part of the DPRK are every bit as brutal as those Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot maintained. Accidental trespass at one of the Jong-Il palaces, even if he's not there, has resulted in execution of the trespasser and the interment of his whole family in one of the Death camps. Mere humming of a a folksong not approved of by the regime is enough to be sent to a death camp, so after 50+ years the common people know the punishment for not appreciating their perfect world or loving their Dear Leader.

Jong-Il was educated in Switzerland, and acquired a taste for the finer things in life. Part of his training under his father was as head of the propaganda ministry, and that fed his love of film. He had Japanese movie stars and sushi chef's kidnapped to star in his films and create his favorite dishes. DPRK kidnapping Japanese from Japan has not been uncommon. Jong-Il, who has quite a reputation for his sexual appetites, fell in love with a woman without permission from his father. Jong-Il's oldest son was born of that "marriage", and eventually became the heir apparent. Jong-il eventually married according to his father's wishes, and other children were born, at least one of whom was a daughter. Jong-Il and his official wife didn't get along, and he dumped her. Today we know that there are officially three sons, and at least one daughter. The probability of many other children is very high, but the other children are apparently not in line of succession. Jong-Il has his pick of sexual partners, and his smallest wishes are instantly complied with.

His personal bodyguard is the elite of his elite Special Forces, and they are fiercely loyal to him. They are trained constantly and so brutally that hardships that would crush most people are not worth mentioning. The slightest evidence that a bodyguard might be disloyal is enough to result in torture and death. Once chosen to be one of Jong-Il's bodyguards, no other family ties are permitted. It is reported that bodyguards are sometimes shaken awake in the night and told that a small group of guards have assassinated Jong-Il as part of a regime change. The dazed guard is then given a choice, join the plot or be shot in his bed. If the guard doesn't opt for instant death, he's taken out before the rest of the guards, tortured, executed and his family all taken to a death camp.

Again, the picture we have is not of a person who is clinically insane, but rather a self-absorbed narcissist who has zero tolerance for any deviation from his wishes. He is a modern day reincarnation of Caligula, or Nero. Luckily he hasn't the power of Rome behind him, for he has been more successful in retaining power than either of those historical monsters.

Kim Jong-Il as an enlightened and beneficent ruler of a power country victimized and targeted by the evil United States? What a laugh that would be if it weren't so damned dangerous.

Asherman, it seems that the right only believes in military solutions or applying harsh sanctions that only hurt the public.

It is obvious that Bush's insistence on multilateral negotiations has been a failure. The Clinton administration held unilateral talks and otherwise established a close diplomatic approach to North Korea. As a result, N. Korea did essentially nothing in building nukes, even agreeing to having padlocks installed on their facilities. As you know, this all ended when Bush included the country in the axis of evil, and spoke of unilateral attacks.

Bush's Blunder In North Korea
Bush's Blunder In North Korea
By Donald Gregg
The Washington Post
Monday 09 October 2006

Former U.S. National Security Advisor Donald Gregg - First: Don't panic. Kim Jong Il's objective is survival and eventual change in North Korea, not suicide. The diplomatic situation in Northeast Asia will be immensely complicated by the North Korea test, which I think was a huge mistake on their part, but missiles are not about to start flying.

The test may indicate the rise in influence of a hard-line faction in the KPA, which is holding sway, at least for now, over others more interested in transformational change in NK. The initiation of a strong bilateral dialogue between NK and the US would strengthen the moderates, and ease the situation in general, but that is not at all likely to happen.

Second: Why won't the Bush administration talk bilaterally and substantively with NK, as the Brits (and eventually the US) did with Libya? Because the Bush administration sees diplomacy as something to be engaged in with another country as a reward for that country's good behavior. They seem not to see diplomacy as a tool to be used with antagonistic countries or parties, that might bring about an improvement in the behaviour of such entities, and a resolution to the issues that trouble us. Thus we do not talk to Iran, Syria, Hizballah or North Korea. We only talk to our friends - a huge mistake.
-------------------------------------------

Donald Gregg was a CIA official since 1951 and a liaison to President Carter's National Security Council and, National Security Advisor to Vice President George H.W. Bush and US ambassador to South Korea from 1989 to 1993. He's now chairman of the board of the Korea Society

And it seems that the left is so politically self-absorbed that they find it easier to side with a government like the DPRK, or Iran, than to accept that those governments are a grave danger not only to the United States, but to the world at large. Poor DPRK the victim of Republican aggression who were forced into acquiring nuclear weapons only after the idiotic blundering of a Republican President. Keep dreaming. Such dreams could easily morph into a nuclear nightmare.

-from the article tico posted. I dont know why the Americans are so keen to cast doubt on the test. Nuclear explosions have a particular characteristic signature. Its identifiable from the seismic trace. The Russians said they were 100% sure it was a bonefide nuclear explosion....and they know a thing or two about underground tests. I think saying it went wrong or wasnt very big - not an impressive result etc is just saving American embarrassment that DPRK should have tested a device at all.