Rosie and Extremism

Is starvation, infant mortality, disease, natural disasters and such like included in "wiped out"? If so okay. I should imagine those categories far outweigh the others as they do today.

Does an industrial disease count or an indulgent lifestyle?

I once read that deaths by motor accident in America are many times more than all the deaths in all the wars America has been involved in put together.

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Here's an animated map of the different empires who have conquered the Middle East from time to time.

http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html

Cheers
Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
The question for you is, did Christianity grow out of this because of some inherent superiority in Christianity, or because of other, secular conditions which allowed for greater stability in society and nation development?

Cycloptichorn

Yes, that is a question, but I fail to see it's relevance to the issue of whether Christian extremism is more or less dangerous than Muslim extremism.

It's relevant because it raises the possibility that the root cause of the extremism isnt' based as much in religion as it is in societal factors, such as the ability for a given society to progress culturally and ethically when given a long, stable period in which to develop and do so; something which has been sorely lacking in the ME region for several hundred years, as compared to Christianity.

Cycloptichorn

Jumping in kind of late, Cyclo...but sounds like you and tico are in violent agreement. You both agree that muslim extremists are "more dangerous" although you might disagree on the root cause of that extremism.

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That's right, Silk. I think it's an important distinction, however, because it speaks to the question: How do we solve this problem of violent extremism?

If the problem is primarily based upon religious teachings, then we have a serious issue that will be quite difficult to resolve without committing genocide upon a large group of people.

If it is socio-economically based, there are other, less deadly options that could be pursued. This is, of course, my hope.

Cycloptichorn

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Cyclo,
I partially agree with you...but the prospect you laid out of centuries of stability required for the socio-economic solution is not encouraging.

Where we part ways, is that you conclude only those two options...centuries of social and economic stability or genocide.

I think squashing of those aberrant muslim extremist teachings, is another option that could be conducted and completed within decades, certainly. The US however, can't do this entirely out of the barrel of a gun. This requires a certain degree of stability that should be established with US help, the responsiblity and mechanisms for that stability turned over to the Iraqi government, and then the US should leave. Coupled with strong muslim clerical leadership and widespread muslim disgust at their tactics, the extremist position will then wither relatively quickly.

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slkshock7 wrote:

Cyclo,
I partially agree with you...but the prospect you laid out of centuries of stability required for the socio-economic solution is not encouraging.

Where we part ways, is that you conclude only those two options...centuries of social and economic stability or genocide.

I think squashing of those aberrant muslim extremist teachings, is another option that could be conducted and completed within decades, certainly. The US however, can't do this entirely out of the barrel of a gun. This requires a certain degree of stability that should be established with US help, the responsiblity and mechanisms for that stability turned over to the Iraqi government, and then the US should leave. Coupled with strong muslim clerical leadership and widespread muslim disgust at their tactics, the extremist position will then wither relatively quickly.

My contention, though, is that the muslim teachings are just an excuse for the populace to express their dissatisfaction with their socioeconomic situaiton. I don't think we can 'squash' the muslim jihadi teachings at all, no more than people could come in with guns and make regular Americans deny their Christian leanings; the harder you try to do that, the more it convinces people that the extremists are right.

I am not optimistic towards the Iraqi gov't being able to do anything, really. They seem to be rather, um, fractured at the moment, without a great deal of control over sectors of their society which must be kept in control in order to have stability for the common man; and the sectarian division of resources is going to be a contentious bone as well, and the Kurd problem around Turkey and Iran is going to be a big problem as well. The fact that many of the gov't figures are supporters of various militias doesn't help either, and without the US support, it's hard to see a stable region evolving anytime soon. Of course, our current presence adds to the instability as well... so we're in a real bind here.

Cycloptichorn

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There are two differences between their world and ours.

Alcohol and monogamy. Whether these are factors I don't know but they are striking differences.

I think there would be some pretty heavy dissatisfaction around here if the lord of the manor had all the women and there was no beer.

Prostitutes get whipped to death over there. Here we have the thousand dollar a night whore and beauty parlours with their associated industries.

Could they be important factors in your opinion Cyclo?

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haha, it is difficult to be an objective judge of the moral choices of other cultures when you are something of a relativist yourself. It's hard to see how a joint and a beer and a hooker or two would hurt too much, for anyone, though...

Cycloptichorn

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There was a long period of time -- a few hundred years -- when Muslims would capture Christian travellers both on land but especially by sea and threaten to kill them if they didn't convert to Islam.

During that same time frame, Christians would capture Muslim travellers both on land but especially by sea and threaten to kill them if they didn't convert to Christianity.

Both sides made a few false converts and both sides made good on their threats.

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Cyclo wrote-

Quote:

It's hard to see how a joint and a beer and a hooker or two would hurt too much, for anyone, though...

You can imagine how easy it must be to get a frenzy going with those off the agenda and the telly full of ranting mullahs.

Boredom relief is a significant issue.

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Wow! What are we worrying about Rosie? On another thread, an infamously angry and illogical poster called me an evil racist because I believe that to live life well, one needs to see the glass as half empty!

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plainoldme wrote:

Wow! What are we worrying about Rosie? On another thread, an infamously angry and illogical poster called me an evil racist because I believe that to live life well, one needs to see the glass as half empty!

I'm still failing to see the logic of your claim that to live life well one must be a pessimist.

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I don't think his "half-full" is the same as the classic definition of "half-full" - i.e., a pessimist.

But, you already knew that, didn't you, ah-nold?

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Here's an animated map of the different empires who have conquered the Middle East from time to time.

http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html

Cheers
Cycloptichorn

Interesting.
According to your map,there was a "kingdom of Israel" around 1050BCE.
How does that jibe with the argument that Israel has no right to be there because they dont have a history in the region,like some people have claimed?

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plainoldme wrote:

Wow! What are we worrying about Rosie? On another thread, an infamously angry and illogical poster called me an evil racist because I believe that to live life well, one needs to see the glass as half empty!

As usual,you refuse to admit what you said.

So once again I will post what you said,and add emphasis to the parts that were racist on your part.
Even if you are actually going to deny writing that statement,you are a racist.

Quote:

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 18:01 Post: 2283078 -

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Idiot -- When you see the glass as half full, you rest on your laurels, another idiom that you are probably unfamiliar with. You say, life is good, as long as we can keep the gd Spicks out and the Blacks in their place. True republican philosophy 101.
When you see the glass as half empty, as I do, then you work to make the world a better place.

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spendius wrote:

Force is a big thing with you Bernie. I have noticed a lot of forceful images in your posts.

It's a point of view. I respect it.

It is a fabulous line I agree. Way beyond Shakespeare. (He's in the alley). I saw it manifested once but it would take too long to explain. Without Dylan I wouldn't have noticed it.

It's a blue colour. Reich mentions it I think. Somebody did. The blue colour. The tangled up in blue colour of the different point of views.

Dali blue, for the truly tangled. Did you know Salvadore worked for a while in the Disney animation department? That was somewhat before he began dreaming about eating poop, I think.

Force? I suppose it could be so. I'm spawn of the Shropshire brewer Lathams. Do we have a rep? Dad considered it unmanly to head a football goalward if inflated with mere air. "Rip the blighter open with your teeth, ram in five pounds of hops, tape the goddamn thing shut and drive it straight at the bastard's heart".

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tico said

Quote:

the terrorists are guided to Jihad by the Quran, not secular reasons

And, in counterpoise, Christians during the Inquistion and crusades were led to their wholesomeness and empathy by local ordinance?

In the US, slavery and lynchings of blacks was, not uncommonly, supported by scriptural passages.

Imagine what folks might get up to if they believed that King Lear or a Batman comic or an Emily Dickenson poem was the Word of god.

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mysteryman wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Here's an animated map of the different empires who have conquered the Middle East from time to time.

http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html

Cheers
Cycloptichorn

Interesting.
According to your map,there was a "kingdom of Israel" around 1050BCE.
How does that jibe with the argument that Israel has no right to be there because they dont have a history in the region,like some people have claimed?

Wonderful, then your own logic would dictate you to accept as reasonable and legitimate land claims made by Native Americans over vast swaths of land tracks in the US, and even moreso due to their more recent habitation on the land.

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Bernie wrote-

Quote:

Imagine what folks might get up to if they believed that King Lear or a Batman comic or an Emily Dickenson poem was the Word of god.

That isn't a fair comparison. The Word of God as Christians have it, in enough forms to cover most bases I'll admit, is the refined production of thousands of years and unknown numbers of minds. It cannot possibly be compared to the production of a single mind.

I knew a Dickenson fan once and getting her breathing heavily was quite a task, which was not the case with a lady who loved the What Katie Did and What Katie Did Next books.

Sounds a good brewery. Are the brothers you mentioned so caressingly anything to do with it. Lovely place is Shropshire.

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Right!

If the map shows Israeli settlements, what about the lands that we stole from the Indians? But only a Democratic Congress and President will work on restoring those lands to its rightful owners, if not in kind then in dollars. That is why the conservatives must be defeated in November. Power to the People!!

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Rosie and Extremism

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