What causes racial hatred: racists or racial friction?

It has been hinted at, but not sure if stated...

If all the countries of the middle east want the Palestinians to have their own country, then why don't they donate portions of thier own countries as a place for the Palestinians to settle?

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Because that would realize the wet dream of the Israeli radical right and reward activities that are almost universally condemned.

Why should they donate anything? The Palestinians have land, we just need to convince them to stop bombing Israelis and convince the Israelis to stop trying to settle land that is not theirs.

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Craven, That's the nub of the problem, but with extremists on both sides.......................................... wow! that was exhausting. c.i.

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Craven de Kere wrote:

Scipio wrote:
I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with transfer. Transfer is transfer. Ethnic cleansing is a euphamism for GENOCIDE.

That's not true. Ethnic cleansing often refers to forcible transfer of an ethnicity to another area thereby "cleansing" one area. It does not always denote genocide.

Mirriam Webster wrote:
ethnic cleansing
Function: noun
Date: 1992
: the expulsion, imprisonment, or killing of ethnic minorities by a dominant majority group

Regards

*puts on quote cap*
Dictionaries do too good a job of relaying denotation while a horribly insufficient job of expressing connotation
*takes off cap*

Quote:

Because that would realize the wet dream of the Israeli radical right and reward activities that are almost universally condemned.

That is so true. They are indeed "almost universally condemned." The "almost" refers to any country BUT Israel. If the target is Israel, then its OK to negotiate with terrorism. =]

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Scipio,

I did not rely on dictionaries alone. You are the first person in my life to contend that ethnic cleansing means genocide exclusively. I believe the connotation was seen by yourself and few others.

As to the last bit you misunderstand me greatly.

A) Isreal does not deserve or have a right to "greater Isreal"

B) Other nations should not have to assimilate peoples and give up land simply because Isreal wants more.

You mention the double standard. The thing is, Isreal does it's own share of misdeeds. Not that it merits the attacks it suffers but Isreal has it's own crimes (read settlements etc).

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If he's the "first person ever" to suggest to you that the term 'ethnic cleansing' carries the clear connotation of genocide, especially in light of relatively recent history, then perhaps its not because he's wrong; perhaps you just haven't met enough people.

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Craven de Kere wrote:

You are the first person in my life to contend that ethnic cleansing means genocide exclusively.

snood wrote:

If he's the "first person ever" to suggest to you that the term 'ethnic cleansing' carries the clear connotation of genocide, especially in light of relatively recent history, then perhaps its not because he's wrong; perhaps you just haven't met enough people.

Mean genocide exclusively vs. connotation of genocide.

Youse misquote me and such.

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Craven de Kere wrote:

Scipio,
As to the last bit you misunderstand me greatly.

A) Isreal does not deserve or have a right to "greater Isreal"

B) Other nations should not have to assimilate peoples and give up land simply because Isreal wants more.

You mention the double standard. The thing is, Isreal does it's own share of misdeeds. Not that it merits the attacks it suffers but Isreal has it's own crimes (read settlements etc).

RE: A

I still don't quite get you. What do you mean by "Greater Israel?"

As to B) I also feel there's a double standard. Remember who kicked out the Palestinians in the first place: Jordan. So, Israel

Craven de Kere wrote:

should have to assimilate people and give up land

because Jordan wanted more living space? So Israel should have to do the above because Arab countries, during the 1948 War of independence, encouraged them to leave their houses? Sounds fair.

Imagine if...
Mexico sent suicide bombers to malls and other public places because they wanted the land that we won? Imagine the outcry. Don't we have a right to settle the land that we won?

I realize I'm coming off as a hardball here, but its partly to play devil's advocate. I do believe that Israel doesn't always get its fair hand in the press. And the only way I can see peace is through that article I posted above. See, the last time Israel offered almost everything the Palestinians asked for (97 percent, if I do recall correctly) the Palestinians refused the offer! Now, I'm not saying this might happen again, but I do think it is a little bit off that the Palestinians signed onto the Rodmap before the Israelis even knew about it!

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"Well the Protestants hate the Catholics,
and the Catholics hate the Protestants,
and the Hindus hate the Muslims,
and everyone hates the Jews."

-Tom Lehrer

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Well, we're better than everyone else and, uhh, we gave the world morals too! Judeo-Christian morals my tochus! More like Judeo-Morals! Oy Vey! Wink

We're also really easy to hate Wink

ITS JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE JEALOUS (at least that's what Momma said =p)

K, I'm for ending this here! Laughing

edit:

Quote:

You agree not to use language that abuses or discriminates on the basis of race, religion, national origin, gender, sexual preference, age, region, disability, etc. Hate speech of any kind is grounds for immediate and permanent removal from the service.

<3 I forgive ya

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cav, That about sums it up, but it's still incomplete. c.i.

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Scipio wrote:

I still don't quite get you. What do you mean by "Greater Israel?"

Greater Isreal is a term used to describe Isreal in addition to the Palestinian territories. Many in Isreal believe that the Paestinian territories should belong to them and consitute what they call "Greater Isreal".

Not dissimilar to certain Palestinians who also want the whole cake.

Scipio wrote:

As to B) I also feel there's a double standard. Remember who kicked out the Palestinians in the first place: Jordan. So, Israel
Craven de Kere wrote:
should have to assimilate people and give up land
because Jordan wanted more living space? So Israel should have to do the above because Arab countries, during the 1948 War of independence, encouraged them to leave their houses? Sounds fair.

I wish you'd not wrap your words around mine and ask me to defend yours. I have never once said that I think it's fair for Isreal to assimilate the refugees.

Jordan did not kick the refugees out, incidentally and it's a shame that they lost their homes but expecting Isreal to give up its identity and assimilate all the refugees is unreasonable.

That would make it an Arab state or they would have to cease to be democratic.

At the same time I do not think the solution is to simply say other nations should assimilate the Palestinians and that Isreal should have the territories.

Scipio wrote:

Imagine if...
Mexico sent suicide bombers to malls and other public places because they wanted the land that we won? Imagine the outcry. Don't we have a right to settle the land that we won?

Isreal did not "win" Palestinian land.

Scipio wrote:

I realize I'm coming off as a hardball here, but its partly to play devil's advocate.

Against things i did not say (e.g. that Ireal should concede to "the right to return")???

Odd.

Scipio wrote:

I do believe that Israel doesn't always get its fair hand in the press. And the only way I can see peace is through that article I posted above. See, the last time Israel offered almost everything the Palestinians asked for (97 percent, if I do recall correctly) the Palestinians refused the offer! Now, I'm not saying this might happen again, but I do think it is a little bit off that the Palestinians signed onto the Rodmap before the Israelis even knew about it!

I'm unclear as to whether you followed the recent events. Palestinians are currently quick to accept deals.

They made a mistake in overplaying their hand in the last elections and are now pretty eager to get to the table even though the 97 isn't on the table anymore.

But on what basis do you say that the Palestinians had "signed" the Roadmap before the Isrealis knew about it?

BTW, I know few people who think their political ideology gets fair play in the press.

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True enough c.i., but that was only one verse, lol! Laughing

And you should hear "The Vatican Rag"...I love Tom Lehrer...

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Craven,
Well, maybe I "misquote you and such", but you go on later in the same post to say

"I believe the connotation was seen by yourself and few others."

and I simply respectfully disagree with that assessment.

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cavfancier- If you love Tom Lehrer, you will like this thread.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=33104&highlight=tom+lehrer#33104

By the way, you can hear the tunes that made Tom famous, including the words and music to "The Vatican Rag" on the link that I have listed!

You can also hear his wonderful voice at:

http://www.rhino.com/store/ProductDetail.lasso?Number=79831

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Walter: I thought, this is exactly what you want: cleansing a home country from infiltrated foreigners to avoid more racial hate?

No, when I talk about ethnic cleansing, I am merely trying to point out the dangers of multi-racial societies that must be understood if we are going to build a workable multi-cultural society.

To put our head in the sand and pretend that ethnic cleansing is not a realistic danger is ignorant.

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JosephMorgan wrote:

Walter: I thought, this is exactly what you want: cleansing a home country from infiltrated foreigners to avoid more racial hate?

No, when I talk about ethnic cleansing, I am merely trying to point out the dangers of multi-racial societies that must be understood if we are going to build a workable multi-cultural society.

To put our head in the sand and pretend that ethnic cleansing is not a realistic danger is ignorant.

Joe, you might also consider the danger of societies intent on keeping themselves homogeneous.

The planet is no longer a place where we can have Balkanization or the factious nonsense that once was Europe. We have to get along. In fact, it probably can be argued that it is impossible not to be multi-racial and multi-cultural any longer, because the exigencies of modern life simply does not lend itself to that cause.

When you started this thread, I suggested that your notion was not yet fully baked. I've listended to everything you've said since -- and I am still convinced it needs some cooking.

Essentially the only part of your argument that makes any sense is: Difference in race or ethnicity is essential to racial and ethnic disharmony.

But the fact is that difference in race and ethnicity is also essential to racial and ethnic harmony.

The only way we are ever going to evolve as reasonable, intelligent human beings is to meet the disharmony face on -- not to attempt to avoid it.

Hey, let's add a science fiction component to this discussion: Perhaps all this is a proving ground for our ability to get along well with OTHERS!!! Perhaps we're being observed (no, I'm not referring to any gods) to see if we can learn proper conduct among diverse peoples. Hell, if we can't do it among fellow human beings (some Irish can't get along with other Irish -- and Italians from southern Italy can't get along with Italians from northern Italy) -- what chance would we have of getting along well with being that truly are different?

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Frank: The planet is no longer a place where we can have Balkanization or the factious nonsense that once was Europe.

But Balkanization is what we are seeing. Look at the Balkans today. Look at what La Raza advocates in the American Southwest.

Europe has Balkanized. Look at the former Yugoslavia, Chechoslavacia, the Soviet Union. There are forces in Beligium trying to divide the country.

This must all be considered as we seek a balance between multi-culturalism and the amount of racial hatred we can endure, and the risk we create for ethnic cleansing.

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Craven: The Palestinians have land, we just need to convince them to stop bombing Israelis and convince the Israelis to stop trying to settle land that is not theirs.

This would be my suggestion, but I'm surprised that you would take it since you would place no limits on the amount of multi-culturalism in a country.

Why not grant citizenship to all the Palestinians in the occupied territories as well as the 2 million Palestinians in refuge camps that have a "right to return" according to the UN.

I would oppose this because it would add another level of multi-culturalism that Israel would not survive. You would not excercise this level of objective, responsible action, because you are tied to the cult dogma called political correctness.

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Cav and Phoenix: Thanks for the morning boost! I'm always quoting various spots of Tom Lehrer to people who don't get it; it's wonderful to find more than one who actually does . . . love both of you Smile

.

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What causes racial hatred: racists or racial friction?

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