Is Chivalry Really Dead? And Why?

I actually was responding to your simplistic answer... here are some answers to the original question:

We are no longer teaching our young people manners

We are too busy with ourselves to be concerned about other people

We are stressed out and some use that as an excuse to be rude or insensitive

Some people obviously see nothing in it for them to be chivalrous

I would hazard a guess that some men are upset at their domination of women being curtailed

gotta go - back later

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Mame wrote:

I would hazard a guess that some men are upset at their domination of women being curtailed

It's not about domination. This is where the feminists constantly get it wrong. For me, it's about respect and the acknowledgement of gender differences. I have no desire to dominate a woman, but as a man, I feel deeply that it is my duty to be the strong one and be the protector. I find it insulting and an affront to my pride if a woman challenges this. Without my honor and pride, I have nothing. Likewise I have the utmost respect for women as nurturers. They are the mothers and nurturers of the world. They are every bit as important as any man, just in different ways.
So call it insecurity or primitiveness, but this is who I am. I can understand if certain women are repulsed by this attitude. They are more than welcome to steer clear of men like me. But I will not change my deeply held beliefs just for the sake of social progress.

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Well, I had been in a conversation with a woman who was talking about being 'allowed' to work in a certain state, or fobidden to do this or that. That's domination. Perhaps you don't practice it, but others do, and they're who I'm talking about.

Nobody wants to take your manhood away from you. And women are more than nurturers; we can be as strong as the next person - in fact, we often need to be - if that offends you, so be it. Most of us aren't looking at it as a contest.

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In answer to the launch- no, it ain't dead, but it's not very healthy, and both men and women have dealt it some telling blows.

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Atavistic says - 'as a man, I feel deeply that it is my duty to be the strong one and be the protector. I find it insulting and an affront to my pride if a woman challenges this. Without my honor and pride, I have nothing.'

To me, you are living within a contrived framework, called a construct.

I wish you peace, prefer not to have to whap your ass.
Kidding, as I'm not an ass-whapper.

You seem to be inculcated well with the male as the Strong One code.
Don't you ever question that?

However you work it out, keep your duty away from me.

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At the same time, I like a man being there. I just don't take it as his duty, unless I am under physical attack, and even then I'd just be thankful for help. I like a man by me as lover, companion, support, questioner, indeed another mind to talk with, engage with, get excited about... also, care-er, toucher.

I don't need a dutiful guardian who resents women.

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All I know is that I couldn't be with a man who treated me like the weaker sex.
I'm a very physically strong woman and every man that I work with knows it, but I've yet to turn any of them off.
In fact, they smile at me a lot when they see me do stuff that you don't often see women do, especially the one I've got my eye on :-D
He knows he'd probebly never have to protect me, but it sure as hell doesn't stop him from looking my way every single day, all day :-D
I don't act like a guy and he treats me like the lady I am, so I guess being strong is only a turn off to certain men.

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edgarblythe wrote:

Phoenix32890 wrote:
Personally, I think that "gallantry" towards women smacks of "noblesse oblige", an attitude that I find very demeaning. I was a teenager during the 1950's, well before the feminist revolution. I remember the first few dates where the boy had a car. I felt extremely uncomfortable when the boy attempted to the door for me. I did not know why, but I remember thinking that I could open the damn door myself.

I think that a lot of the acts of so called "gallantry" were really ways that men flunted their supposed superior position, although I don't think that the boys were conscious of the implications of what they were doing.

I believe that people need to treat others, no matter what their sex, with courtesy and consideration. I will hold a door open for a man as well as a woman. I have offered guys my spot on the checkout line, when they only had a few items in their basket, and I had a lot.

I think "gallantry" is really a matter of being a kind, empathic human being, and should not be relegated to the province of the male.

I like that post very much. This topic reminds me of my boss, a lady I much admire. She is a vegetarian, body builder (not to a ridiculous extreme), and she wants to do things for herself. For instance, when she brings in those big jugs of water for the cooler, she does not want help. I helped her once or twice, because it had been the thing to do with previous managers. Then I realized she resented guys doing things for her that way. Now, I can comfortably watch her carry these jugs about and not lift a finger. She appreciates my sensitivity.

Does she carry her jugs gracefully?

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nimh wrote:

Question of taste, I guess. When I see these couples, or even groups, in a restaurant or even a cafe, staring at the bill afterward and calculating exactly how much who has to pay - eeh! I mean, fer chrissakes, treat the other already, he or she'll return the generosity some other time. Or, in a group, at the very least just glance at the bill, divide it by the number of people, and roughly pay your gross share or a bit more. So perhaps you consumed a little less than the other, next time it'll be the other way round.

You must not have in-laws... Or office lunches?

Sometimes, there are those with whom you are forced to socialize that will take and never give....

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Chivalry (ostentatious posturing, pointedly holding open doors, assuming others are less capable because of their gender) - dead or dying, thankfully.

Courtesy (being kind to others, holding the door a few moments, helping those with extra burdens) - timeless.

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There ya go.

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Mame wrote:

we can be as strong as the next person - in fact, we often need to be

Not true. With all due respect, you are not as strong as me. I simply desire the mere recognition of this fact.

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Montana wrote:

He knows he'd probebly never have to protect me

Is that right? So if a 250 lb. man attacked you, do you honestly think you would stand a chance?

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Atavistic, are any women stronger than you?

I've mentioned Lisa Leslie in these kinds of discussions -- think you could take her?

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sozobe wrote:

Atavistic, are any women stronger than you?

I've mentioned Lisa Leslie in these kinds of discussions -- think you could take her?

Yes, I'm sure there are a few women out there that are stronger than me. But I would put that at about 1 in a 1000, if not more. But that is only one aspect. Generally speaking, women are not built for physical combat. Granted, there are exceptions to every rule, but in general, men are much more naturally disposed to combat.

I am not familiar with this Leslie character, but I remember seeing an interview with Muhammad Ali's daughter, an excellent boxer in her own right. The interviewer asked her if she ever considered fighting men in the ring. She emphatically insisted that the difference in strength is too substantial, and that no, she doen't believe that women should fight men. Coming from a professional female boxer, and someone who has sparred with men, I found this statement telling.

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Atavistic wrote:

Mame wrote:
we can be as strong as the next person - in fact, we often need to be

Not true. With all due respect, you are not as strong as me. I simply desire the mere recognition of this fact.

I wasn't talking strong in a physical sense, Atavistic... that's such a non-issue that I don't know why it even needs acknowledgement. It's like affirming someone's height - why does it matter? I was talking moral, emotional, mental strength...

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Atavistic wrote:

Mame wrote:
we can be as strong as the next person - in fact, we often need to be

Not true. With all due respect, you are not as strong as me. I simply desire the mere recognition of this fact.

I wasn't talking strong in a physical sense, Atavistic... that's such a non-issue that I don't know why it even needs acknowledgement. It's like affirming someone's height - why does it matter? I was talking moral, emotional, mental strength...

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Mame wrote:

Atavistic wrote:
Mame wrote:
we can be as strong as the next person - in fact, we often need to be

Not true. With all due respect, you are not as strong as me. I simply desire the mere recognition of this fact.

I wasn't talking strong in a physical sense, Atavistic... that's such a non-issue that I don't know why it even needs acknowledgement. It's like affirming someone's height - why does it matter? I was talking moral, emotional, mental strength...

Fair enough Mame. I certainly agree that women can be just as strong in those departments.

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I went out to dinner with a guy-friend from home recently. As we were walking along the street, to and from our destinations, I noticed he walked on the traffic-side of the street. I deliberately tried to walk at the sidewalk edge when we crossed a street to see if he did anything and he unconsciously put an arm around my shoulders and gently steered me inside him as he walked on the outside. My mom had told me, growing up, that this was one of the things men were taught, to be courteous to women. I don't find that offensive, in fact I was touched. It told me that he cared and was being polite.

Another chivalrous thing that 'touches' me is when a male (of any age) lets a female go first - off a train, off an elevator, through a door first. It gives me a cozy, warm feeling.

I don't need either of the above gestures. It's not like I'd get upset if they never happened to me again. But they are just nice. It's probably more about manners than being chivalrous.

If a guy were to ask me out on a date, I would assume he is paying for that dinner. If I reciprocate and ask him to go to a movie/play/dinner with me, then I expect to pay. From there on, it is either split or he pays for dinner and I pay for show or he pays one date and I pay next. I don't keep to tight a tab on who pays but I might have a sub-conscious issue if he insisted on paying for everything.

I'm not concerned about car doors or opening doors or all the other stuff. We all do for each other when someone needs a hand.

As for the 'expecting sex' issue, I am very comfortable with speaking my mind with a man I am dating and having my own timeline about when I am ready to do something - kissing, sex, etc. I'll know when I'm ready and I'm pretty sure I will communicate that to him clearly. I have no problem telling a guy that sex is not on the cards and I don't care if it is the third date and it's expected. I don't keep other peoples schedules and if a guy doesn't like that or peer pressures me - he's gone. I actually dated a guy for six months without sex and he was delighted to have the sex-issue on the back-burner while we really got to know each other. Now I know that is practically unheard of these days when we are all expected to have golden globe awards in oral sex on the first date, but at times I like to dance to the beat of my own drum.

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These things take on a different life now, when they are nice gestures. But to walk on the inside of the sidewalk for decades, because that is your role, and to wait to be let out of the car, over decades.. is a little different.

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Is Chivalry Really Dead? And Why?

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